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Tamiya Vs. Kyosho


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#1 taliesin

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Posted 22 January 2008 - 01:10 AM

i see a lot of tamiya people have kyosho models as well. are the two in any way related? are they similar enough that parts are interchangeable on some models, or is it just a coincidence that people like both companies? just curious.
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#2 bigoggy

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Posted 22 January 2008 - 07:32 AM

just coincidence

#3 Berenger

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Posted 22 January 2008 - 08:24 AM

Kyosho kits tend to be high quality kits with good manuals and parts quality (at least all mine have). Other manufacturers such as Team Losi, in my experience anyway are fairly shocking. A few years back I raced a XX-4 and a Street Weapon, both of which arrived with parts missing from the kits.

I've never had that happen with a Kyosho and certainly never with a Tamiya.

Fraser.

#4 Mouton

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Posted 22 January 2008 - 08:33 AM

There are no ties between Tamiya and Kyosho as companies if that is what you ask. In terms of quality both maintain a standard high enough to win World Championships. It mostly a matter of taste, I would say.

The common denominator for this forum is Tamiya but many members have models from Kyosho, Traxxas, HPI, Thunder Tiger, TeamLOSI, Team AE et cetera.
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#5 Wireless

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Posted 22 January 2008 - 08:48 AM

They are unrelated and any component interchangeability is pure coincidence. Kyosho are an odd bunch. I like their 80's models but the later stuff does little for me I must admit. The only modern Kyosho's I like are their helicopters and the Blizzard (which is a development of the original 1980's versions anyway).

It's a shame that Kyosho don't appear to have the same enthusiasm for their products as Tamiya. They have shafted owners of their products on many occasions by simply dropping support for a model even though it's not that old. This is especially thew case with their helicopters. This is very annoying when you consider how much a good helicopter costs (particularly 10 years ago) and then having it grounded for the sake of a $10 part that you cannot get any more. This is why I run my Kyosho heli parts service.

Kyosho have swapped and messed about with suppliers and distributors and have generally cacked things up. What's more UKClaire approached them regards a visit to their place when she went to Japan. Instead of a "Thanks for your enquiry but sorry we don't have any visitor facilities here" or "we can't accept visitors" they just said "No" very bluntly. How rude...!

If Kyosho changed their attitude to their downstream supply chain (distributors, dealers and customers) I would be much more likely to purchase their products in the future. For now, I do not find it hard to see why they are going downhill in many people's estimation...

OK, Kyosho rant and thread hijack over...! (Hey, the title was Tamiya vs. Kyosho so it's kind of relevant ;) )
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#6 Mad Ax

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Posted 22 January 2008 - 09:46 AM

When I was younger I always thought Kyosho were a step above Tamiya in terms of kit complexity. My theory was that nitro was "better" than electric, and that helicopters were more complex and more precise than cars, and that since Kyosho made nitro helicopters, so their cars would be more precise. In fact I thought Kyosho predominantly made nitro cars, because in my LHS (which was my only window to the big world of hobbies back in the mid-90s) all Kyoshos stocked were nitros, and all nitros were Kyoshos.

Imagine my disappointment when I saved up all summer for a Kyosho Sand Master nitro buggy, only to discover that the "hi-tech" model I'd purchase was no better than any Tamiya I'd owned. The steering was sloppy, the suspension was sloppy, there were no ball bearings supplied, and the chassis actually looked like it was designed for electric and converted at the factory. It even had the recess for a 6-cell pack in it, only slightly hidden by the engine.

My LHS told me about 18 months ago that Kyosho dropped their European parts distributors, making parts almost impossible to get through "official" routes. I'm not sure what the Ebay market is like for parts, but my LHS can't get any Kyosho parts.

Looking back now though I can see that Kyosho had some really good electric buggies in the late 80s. When Tamiya had started to drop their off-road inspired styling for "buggies from outer space" Kyosho were still making kits that actually looked like they could be found on a race circuit somewhere in the US...
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#7 Wireless

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Posted 22 January 2008 - 10:42 AM

Imagine my disappointment when I saved up all summer for a Kyosho Sand Master nitro buggy, only to discover that the "hi-tech" model I'd purchase was no better than any Tamiya I'd owned. The steering was sloppy, the suspension was sloppy, there were no ball bearings supplied, and the chassis actually looked like it was designed for electric and converted at the factory. It even had the recess for a 6-cell pack in it, only slightly hidden by the engine.


I had a Sandmaster Mk.II - what an apalling car that was. You're right that the chassis was actually designed for electric - the car was effectively a Kyosho Outrage with a horrifically badly engineered nitro conversion. There was too much slop and flex in everything to make it any good. Even the worst Tamiyas are better. The only redeeming feature was the fact that the little .12 sized engine (I think it was a .11 in the Sandmaster Mk.I) was really quite sweet once run in and gave good power and easy starting. I gave my Mk.II away free to Sgt. Barnes last year in fact...

I have a collection of Kyosho helicopters ( see www.concept30.co.uk ) and it's fair to say that the engineering on the high end models such as the Concept 60 SRII is absolutely superb. The machined alloy parts and quality of the injection moulded plastics is second to none, but they were damned expensive. For example, I have an NIB Concept 60 SRII Carbon Edition which retailed for almost 1000 back in the late 1990's - up there with the X-Cell in terms of prices.

Tamiya realise that modelling is a big business of course, but they are shrewd enough to see that marketing and PR works. Lots of releases, a wide range of offerings, plenty of reading material and photos on websites, glossy catalogues, not to mention the re-releases. Kyosho just don't seem to have got this right any more. My 1987 Kyosho catalogue is over 160 pages of full size photos and specs of all their ranges. If they were re-released today I and many others would have a field day, but it seems they don't follow the same rules as Tamiya and have taken a path via high-end 1/18th nitro buggies that are then mimicked in cheaper RTR versions. I must say, the quality of the RTR Infernos and such is no better than a CEN or other "Generic" these days. They only get good when you get to the high end MP777 and Kanai etc.

All this in my humble opinion of course, but gone are the days of the Optima and Ultima, gone are the days of the Datsun sidestep, gone are the days of the Pathfinder CVT, gone are the days of the Turbo Optima Mid, gone are the days of the Mini Baja, gone are the days of the little .09 Honda City Turbo, gone are the days of the Vanning and Landjump, gone are the days of the lovely LSS motor gliders...Shame, but I guess we have to move on. For cars, my allegiance is now firmly with the Tamiya brand and will remain so unless Kyosho change their model strategy...
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#8 Metla

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Posted 22 January 2008 - 10:46 AM

The current crop of Kyosho electric buggies are world class, and there RTR Lazer would have to be the best priced, and best package in its class.

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#9 egandolfo

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Posted 22 January 2008 - 03:25 PM

Tamiya cars, in my opinion, are more innovative and Tamiya tend to introduce peculiar (strange) innovations on the models... such as the Hot Shot's monoshocks, the Super Champ shocks oil tank, or the lock system for the Avante's wheels... and a lot of other mainly useless, but very funny and interesting, invention.
Do you remember the front collapsing suspension system on the Avante?
Very nice but a real pain while racing!
Moreover Tamiya is superior to all the other producers in the body's design.
Kyoshos are racing machines, all the non necessary has been removed... only engineers can like this kind of idea.

Since the '80 Kyoshos cars do not have the figure of the driver!!!
This was absolutely incredible for me at that time!

An RC car without the driver figure, a slogan on the wing, a driver's name and, sometimes, also the owners name, is not a RC Car.

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#10 taliesin

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Posted 22 January 2008 - 05:21 PM

thanks for the replies, now i know. where i live nobody sells kyosho, but i keep seeing them online and such. i just haven't been able to learn as much about them as i have about tamiya.

i'm hooked on tamiya and now own 4 models even though i've only been in the hobby a little over a year, so that shows how much i like them i guess. i started with a losi b/c that was about all the lhs carried besides associated and traxxas, but i was not very happy with the product and it was blasted expensive for so many out of the box problems [it was an rtr]. after much grief with it, i gave up and bought my 1st tamiya kit [tt-01] and now i just can't get enough of the things.

i was just kind of wondering if kyosho were in the same league, and what they were all about, but it sounds like tamiya is just that singular. based on what i have seen, i'm not the only one who caught tamiya fever. the one thing kyosho that really appeals to me though is the blizzard, even though i haven't ever seen one in person. seems like a really cool thing to have this time of year [stuck inside today w/ -20 degree weather and much snow] IF it can really be used in the snow!

well thanks for all the info guys, it is appreciated. :)
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#11 94eg!

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Posted 22 January 2008 - 06:22 PM

...A few years back I raced a XX-4 and a Street Weapon, both of which arrived with parts missing from the kits.

I've never had that happen with a Kyosho and certainly never with a Tamiya.

Fraser.


FYI: I've witnessed problems with both brands lately. My best friends brother purchased a factory sealed Tamiya TA05R that was missing the rear sway-bar in the kit because they included two front sway-bars.

As for Kyosho, my best friend recently built his new TF-5 Stallion touring car, and the steering system absolutely does not work what-so-ever if assembled as the instructions say. The included servo saver is way bigger than the one in the one shown in the instructions causing the link to hit the upper deck when steering right. This was fixed by moving the ball to a more inward hole in the saver. The big issue however was how the tie-rod turnbuckle hexes are so big they hit the rearward lower control arm mounting block when steering in either direction. We had to flip the outer ball connectors to the tops of the steering knuckles to make it work, but who knows how that will effect geometry. Then because of the flip, the ball-ends on the front sway-bar now hit the tie rods at full lock. Pretty stupid if you ask me... :)

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#12 Hibernaculum

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Posted 23 January 2008 - 01:08 AM

Looking back now though I can see that Kyosho had some really good electric buggies in the late 80s. When Tamiya had started to drop their off-road inspired styling for "buggies from outer space" Kyosho were still making kits that actually looked like they could be found on a race circuit somewhere in the US...


I think they deteriorated (realism-wise) at a fairly similar time. Going by the catalogues....
The 1986 Kyosho catalogue is stunningly good and full of interesting (and real) looking buggies and trucks.
In 1987 though, the windows started to get filled in on a few models, driver figures started to disappear, roll cages and headlights were phased out.....and progressively the realism disappeared from then onward, I reckon.

Tamiya still had an awesome line up of post-Super Champ buggies in 1987 (Wild Willy to Bigwig). But in 1988-89 a few more of the collectible old models were dropped, to be replaced by less popular efforts, and the peak (of old fashioned realism) had definitely been passed. This continued each year as the popularity of buggies declined (a dramatic shift away from off-road, toward F1 and touring cars from 1987 - 1992) and scale realism went out the window in the buggy sector. Though a tiny handful survived through the 1990s with at least the open-cockpit/driver-figure look, thanks to the Grasshopper II, Bearhawk, Super Hornet, Wild Willy II etc.

Just MHO though, not facts :D People have different definitions of realism, e.g. I'd still consider something to be realistic if it has clear/open windows, driver figure, sponsors and sharp-ish retro body lines, as a minimum.

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#13 bakaguyjean

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Posted 23 January 2008 - 04:51 AM

I dont Tamiya and Kyosho really have a rival anymore as they seem to be in different worlds as far as RC goes.

Check out this picture. It is of a Kyosho Nitro,see if you can find anything strange about it

#14 OCD

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Posted 23 January 2008 - 05:33 AM

Ah!

Clear windows and tire lettering!?!

Tamiya couldn't even manage that with their own version!

I do wonder if Kyosho version will look as scale in person; I think they also have a reputation of embellished catalog photos... :D


#15 rajicon

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Posted 23 January 2008 - 05:46 AM

Check out this picture. It is of a Kyosho Nitro,see if you can find anything strange about it


The Tamiya sticker on the sill infront of the rear wheel???

#16 bakaguyjean

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Posted 23 January 2008 - 05:53 AM

The Tamiya sticker on the sill infront of the rear wheel???

You got it with the decal, Heres is another one from the same line of cars. Its got a little bigger decal on the wing.

#17 JYCM3

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Posted 23 January 2008 - 05:54 AM

I dont Tamiya and Kyosho really have a rival anymore as they seem to be in different worlds as far as RC goes.

Check out this picture. It is of a Kyosho Nitro,see if you can find anything strange about it



i see it tamiya decal on Kyosho nitro hhaha i'm not surprised as I seen Tamiya Calsonic 350Z body kit and on the decals there's two Kyosho logo !!!

#18 bakaguyjean

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Posted 23 January 2008 - 05:55 AM

Ah!

Clear windows and tire lettering!?!

Tamiya couldn't even manage that with their own version!

I do wonder if Kyosho version will look as scale in person; I think they also have a reputation of embellished catalog photos... :D


There isnt any tire lettering on the real deal so to speak. But the windows are clear. The other strange thing is most nitro guys cut a huge hole for cooling so as nice as the body could look,you still have that huge cooling hole to mess everything up.

#19 OCD

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Posted 23 January 2008 - 06:35 AM

On the topic of Tamiya vs. Kyosho;

I suppose it's a matter of perception -- I've heard convincing arguments from both sides. The most classic division would be racers versus modelers, Tamiya folks more often being the latter.

When I was a kid (late '80s) and spent countless hours pouring over RC catalogs and brochures, I often weighted each of the models against each other in my own method of mental 'collecting'. On my meager budget I had little chance of owning any of them, so I judged them mostly on there appearance whatever specs were made available. (Tower Hobbies was one of my favorites, which BTW favored Kyosho products for years until recently) As I recall, the Kyosho cars were almost always put below the Kyoshos in desirability, but the Kyoshos had an edge in price vs. what you got in the box. It was the catalog stock photos of the finished models that was the deal breaker for the Kyoshos. Most of them appeared to have been retouched and doctored to me, and even then they didn't look that scale or crisp. They simply appeared cheaper.

After getting a summer job and earning a little cash, I managed to buy my first two hobby-grade RC cars. The first one being a Tamiya Mud Blaster, and the second purchase was a Kyosho Turbo Scorpion. Both of them were a learning experience! The Mud Blaster was sort of a money pit: I think a really would have rather had the King Cab, but cheaped-out and bought the ORV chassis instead. I had some experience with a friends Monster Beetle and loved it, so I had hoped I could milk some more performance out of a Mud Blaster and make it more of a racer. Don't get me wrong, I was a fan of Tamiya's scale After laying out good cash for a Thorp diff and axle set, my rig had an untimely death under the wheels of a 1:1 car, so the purchase of my second car became necessary. Turning back to my catalogs, I find the Kyosho Turbo Scorpion kit on sale at deep discount: $59.95! At this price, and with the Scorpion's extremely realistic appearance, I figured 'why not give it a go?'

Boy was I wrong! While it did come with a great mostly-metal design, the fit and finish was obviously lacking. Even the manual seemed to be a step below the Tamiya standard I was used to. I had to buy shims for the gearbox befor I could even get it to turn smoothly, which was no easy task at that age! (My first positive experience with a local hobby shop!) When I did get it running, after only a few runs the front cast aluminum trailing arm broke, and the car was out of commission. While I did have a LHS to help me get shims and Mud Blaster parts, there was no such chance with the old Scorpion. Even Tower wasn't supplying spares at this point .. So, another car on the shelf. :D

From a nostalgic point of view, I would definitely rate my early experiences with Tamiyas to be far more favorable to the Kyosho. Hence, my lasting impression has been something similar. My current LHS is a big supporter of Kyosho models, and still can't say I care for them much. The giant Inferno based 1/8 touring cars are bizarre looking to me, and the Mini Z's just don't hold my attention. But surely there's some Kyosho products I'm not aware of? (wasn't aware of the Xanavi Z above!) I suspect there are a few I've missed, but what can I say? I'm permanently skewed towards Tamiya so Kyshos just aren't on my radar. If I had selected different cars? Who knows. It's hard to imagine that on my childhood budget I would have been sampling anything but the cheapest examples of either brand. I suspect the 'rich kids' would have a entirely different recollection and point of view! :P

-Steve


#20 OCD

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Posted 23 January 2008 - 06:39 AM

The other strange thing is most nitro guys cut a huge hole for cooling so as nice as the body could look,you still have that huge cooling hole to mess everything up.


Yes, but if you notice, you can't really see the cylinder head either.

Just another photo retouched to look pretty in the catalog? :D

-S


#21 Rayman011

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Posted 23 January 2008 - 08:14 AM

My first Hobby Grade RC was the FWD Honda CRX by Kyosho. Even though it was one of the cheapest from Kyosho at the time,it was pretty fast and handled incredibly well. The quality was really good as was the durability. I used that little car alot and didn't break a thing on it. I still have it!

#22 RA1028

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Posted 23 January 2008 - 08:35 AM

I dont Tamiya and Kyosho really have a rival anymore as they seem to be in different worlds as far as RC goes.

Check out this picture. It is of a Kyosho Nitro,see if you can find anything strange about it



It is because Tamiya is a sponsor of the actual racing car :D

#23 Mad Ax

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Posted 23 January 2008 - 09:07 AM

It is because Tamiya is a sponsor of the actual racing car :D

Now that's quality 1:1 reproduction whatever the cost!
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#24 egandolfo

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Posted 23 January 2008 - 09:25 AM

In the '80 the cost of the RC kit (in Italy) it was absolutely prohibitive. My first RC car was a Striker... I had to ask my parents every day for one year before they decide to buy it to stop this every day peana.

I heard from my local shop, that, in the past years, Tamiya had big financial problems due to Chinese competition :P , and the company was even about to close.
As you can see almost all Tamiya kit (not all, but a big part) are still "Made in Japan", and thats why the quality of the product is so high. Kyoshos are, nowdays, made in China.

Chinese production allowed the producers to offer at cheap price the already built kits... which, in my opinion, are a real nonsense... why do I have to buy a already assembled and painted kit?! 40% of the fun consist in building the kit, 30% in personalising and tuning it, 10% in running it, and 20% in repairing it after running...

Today people do not want to build the kit, they only want to use it... I see that there are a lot of people that bring back their kits to the shop when they are broken for reparation!!!! Shame on them! :D

#25 RETRO R/C

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Posted 23 January 2008 - 10:14 AM

Two totally different companies.

Two totally different paths as to what they are about as far as R.C is concerned. Kyosho make and design all their world championship winning cars themselves. Tamiya generally buy/farm out the design to another company and call it their own. When Kyosho do make a scale model - it is done brilliantly - they simply dont do as many as Tamiya. Until recently Kyosho marketing and support "blew chunks" ..........imagine if they had of been as good as Tamiya at marketing - we all would have been convinced that a car like the striker was indeed a "competition off road racer" :D LOLOL That being said - Kyosho has now gotten serious about support - especially in the US. Being fair - both companies have their good and bad points. Both complanies did indeed make cars which really were terrible. However they are both brilliant at what they do - Tamiya for clever marketing and mass apeal with the odd competition orientated car throw in, Kyosho for high end racing, brilliant RTR vehicles and limited scale R/C models like the blizzard and R/C bikes.

Both companies are well known for their static models - Tamiya for polastic model kits - Kyosho for their die cast. Both companies produce simply stunning and accurate models.

As for the "re-touching" of catalouges and their overall quality - I LOVE Tamiya catalouges - however to be honest Kyosho NAILED them in the catalouge dept up intil the late eighties.....REAL cars - real action and great descriptions etc. ALL companies doctor photo's - even back then.

The quality of the inferno series of cars has come into question here - I can assure you that there are very few cars in the price range that come even remotely close to the inferno's in terms of quality componentry. I speak from a store manager and repairer of these "RTR" cars up until a couple of years ago. The ratio of Kyosho's returned compared to others is tiny.

As for the debate about the quality of the cars I can only comment from my own experiences and draw comparisons, people's personal experiences are exactly that - I cant understand it when people make a call on a manufacturer like you hear on here so often. Things like "Hornets are so weak - they broke all the time at the font of the chassis and the gearbox was not strong enough"(just the hornet as an example) - WHAT THE HECK were the owners of these poor cars doing to wreck them? Driving them off the roof and expecting them to survive? I gave my Hornet what I consider to be terrible time by fitting a 13 tripple motor to it and jumping it off milk crates with a ramp on concrete and it never broke....man NO manufacturer could stand up to the abuse that some people give these cars. The jumps we consider "mild" for these cars would be like taking a full sized vehicle and expecting it to survive from a fourty foot high jump - wonder how many would not break their chassis etc??

This is of course all my personal opinion - at the end of the day people's personal experiences are what drives them and makes them learn - however sometimes people need also to open themselves to new possibilities by taking off the "rose coloured glasses" that people can have by sticking with just one manufacturer. Both companies have plenty to offer - and to be honest you could do alot worse than buy from the two largest manufacturers in the world for R/C product.

just my 2 cents,

Cheers

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