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New Dyna Storm Suspension Blocks


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#1 Origineelreclamebord

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Posted 20 March 2012 - 10:50 PM

Lately I've been working on some affordable improved suspension blocks for the Dyna Storm. The result is this prototype part:

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Last year I did a similar project, but it turned out injection moulding wasn't an economical option, and the project was put on hold. Over the last 6-9 months I have been experimenting with 3D printed parts, and I was amazed by the quality and strength that these parts have. I think it is a production method to be taken seriously for mechanical parts, so I wanted to test this - what better than to put some life back into the project that I did last year?

The parts will be 3D Printed from Nylon (PA12) powder and has similar strength to ABS plastic, the material of the original parts, but is tougher (which is a good thing) and more flexible (which might not be ideal, but the company I ordered at does have a more rigid version of the material with aluminium powder in it).

While I was designing the part I had many ideas as to how to improve it compared to the original. Here is a list of features that should describe the part:
- The part is meant to be used with (nyloc or threadlocked) hex nuts instead of press nuts to prevent the problem of loose press nuts making it difficult to re-tighten or undo the screws on the mount.
- The part has shallow debossed portions that prevent the need of a wrench during (dis)assembly.
- The part has a lot more material around the mounts/screws with the aim to spread the stresses better.
- As much material as possible has been added to make the part as strong as possible.
- An additional mount has been added to the rear, which mounts to the same mounting hole as the two lower screws of the motor guard. Mounting it will require 20mm selftapping screws instead of the standard 15mm ones. The mount forms a brace similar to the one on the front side of the rear suspension blocks, which reinforces the structure from impacts on the rear of the suspension arms and wheels.
- The 2 degrees Anti-Squat of the original blocks have been maintained.

Two TamiyaClub members will be testing the blocks - one in bashing conditions, one on a track. If the blocks succeed these tests, they will be on sale soon. Because the parts are 3D printed, the design is very flexible. This means that it can be printed in different materials individually, or for individual buyers the part can be customized. For example, people who don't want the rear brace on can have it removed. Custom embossed or debossed portions can be made on the part and there are several standard colouring options, as well as ordering the part in white and dying it yourself. These customized designs, depending on how different they are, don't cost a lot of extra money, as the costs of the parts is only the labour of remodeling the part and the material price per volume.

#2 redzone

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Posted 20 March 2012 - 11:13 PM

Sounds good!

#3 94eg!

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Posted 21 March 2012 - 01:28 PM

Cool solution to a rearward reinforcement. I like it. I'm not sure, but you may want to add that lip on the bottom that runs along the edge of the chassis.

HE>i


#4 Origineelreclamebord

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Posted 21 March 2012 - 02:34 PM

Cool solution to a rearward reinforcement. I like it. I'm not sure, but you may want to add that lip on the bottom that runs along the edge of the chassis.


Thanks :) I will have a look at it, but from what I remembered it didn't align very tightly with the chassis while it did catch dirt and grit, hence why I kept it off. Three sets have been ordered as I may test the third set myself and get my Dyna out of storage and on the tarmac and dirt again. If I am to do that I will definetely have to put TRF dampers on it though :P

#5 Origineelreclamebord

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Posted 28 March 2012 - 09:46 PM

Update 28-03-2012:

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Here are the official assembly instructions ;) There is an option to use low profile/thin nyloc nuts, which would mean you could get away with screws of 13-14mm I think (I haven't been able to measure it yet). The blocks can of course be mounted to the TR-15T as well, but to use the rear motor guard braces one would have to use a long screw with a tube around the screw between the two braces.

I also have good news on the parts: The first three sets have arrived, and everything seemed to fit when I made a quick mockup on a chassis plate with the other parts. Pictures will hopefully come soon, my camera is broken so I have to ask someone a small favour :P

Update 29-03-2012:

Here is the first picture of the printed blocks:
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As you can see, the resulting part has a rough texture, but the shape is accurate and the mechanical qualities of the part are about as good as an injection moulded nylon part would have :)

#6 wildwillydriver

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Posted 30 March 2012 - 09:42 AM

What a great job mate, i really look forward to..... ;)

Bye.
WWD
;)

#7 Shanks

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Posted 31 March 2012 - 11:26 AM

Great design though I have to say they do look deceptively weak like they are made of icing sugar ;) Im sure that they are in fact strong enough for the job & time will tell if they are ;) .

#8 kontemax

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Posted 02 April 2012 - 05:06 PM

Can you do gears with this 3D printer?

Max

#9 Origineelreclamebord

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Posted 03 April 2012 - 07:26 AM

Can you do gears with this 3D printer?

Max


If the gears are module 2 or more, perhaps I'd say you could give it a try, but I certainly wouldn't with the 1/10th scale cars. The problem is - on consumer printers or currently available printing services - that the strong materials often lack detail and the detailed materials are often too weak to be used as mechanical parts. There is a method where they print a wax mould and pour material in, which has really high detail (and any material that could be poured easily could be used) but I don't know of a company that offers a service for this yet other thans silver :D I'm sure this will be solved in the future though, but for now it would be easiest to get them machined or source the originals.

Small update by the way on the blocks: Being prototypes I had to tweak some things in the dimensions - especially as the printing method (at least from what I've heard) had the tendency to make holes slightly smaller than in the model, and the part was 0.5mm too long to fit between the ends of the rear suspension arm. I've got one block completely fixed, and I was once again smacked in the face by how tough the material is: I worked on it for more than 2 hours to get it to fit! (I had to be ungentle with my Dremel to actually get anywhere with the grinding stones). I've already seen some things I'd like to change/improve on the production version of the part.

#10 TA-Mark

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Posted 03 April 2012 - 10:24 AM

Do you know what model 3D printer they used to make these with? I've spent the last few days watching hundreds of 3D printer videos and some seem better than others for prototyping parts.

#11 Origineelreclamebord

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Posted 03 April 2012 - 03:35 PM

Do you know what model 3D printer they used to make these with? I've spent the last few days watching hundreds of 3D printer videos and some seem better than others for prototyping parts.


I don't know the exact printer, but I do know the material and the processing/printing method:

Material: EOS PA2200
Printing Method: SLS (Selective Laser Sintering)

SLS printers are amongst the more expensive printers out there: I've been told an average SLS printer would set you back about 100,000 euros :D There are also other methods, like FDM (Fused Deposit Modeling), which is much cheaper and I believe the only printing method that the 'cheap' (consumer) printers use, and Objet (which is a printing system that can print multiple materials in one part - so you could print the frame of a grip and the rubber outside surface in one go).

If you are considering to buy one for RC parts, I'd wait one or two more years, unless you have machining equipment to make some sections of parts accurate (like holes for axles) - other than that, if ABS has enough strength for you (which is by far the most used material for cheap 3D printers), the parts are perfectly usable. If a printer within your budget doesn't have the capacity for the parts you'd like, I'd recommend using a 3D printing service like Shapeways, you often have more material options, which is great. If you don't need that, then sure your own printer will be cheaper if you print a lot thanks to the material prices.

PS: I found this link - it might be interesting for you :D

#12 TA-Mark

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Posted 03 April 2012 - 07:39 PM

Odd that the parts were 'out of spec'. Most of the high end systems are claiming accuracy to 0.01mm.

It was the Objet line of printers I was most impressed with. Particularly the Connex 500 (the one that does multiple materials at once). I'd settle for the Objet30 from their range, but you're still looking at a fair whack of price and the materials are not cheap either and do have a limited shelf life.

I haven't seen any FDM printer that can give any better than fair results at best in their finish. Some of the thermoplastic extrusion ones seem to be a pure gimmick (or a joke).

With the prices how they are at the moment I think it's better to outsource the small amount of prototyping to one of the larger companies that have a high enough turnover of work to keep their top of the line machines serviced and good quantities of 'new' material to use on hand without it spoiling on the shelf.

I have a few things done in RhinoCAD. The entire Fox (gearboxes, chassis... everything) ready to mill in aluminium; Most of the DF01 buggy with a few modified parts to fix some of it's weaknesses (rear gearbox top cover); and the rest of it is all new parts like buggy interiors (Grasshopper, DT02, DF01, Bear Hawk, better FAV), and scale accessories for buggys and trucks. I would want to test fit these parts before outsourcing to have large numbers machined of the aluminium parts or of 'plugs' for the vac-former for the plastic parts.

I had that last link bookmarked already :D The Solido was missing from list of 'cheap' printers.

#13 Origineelreclamebord

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Posted 03 April 2012 - 10:13 PM

Odd that the parts were 'out of spec'. Most of the high end systems are claiming accuracy to 0.01mm.

It was the Objet line of printers I was most impressed with. Particularly the Connex 500 (the one that does multiple materials at once). I'd settle for the Objet30 from their range, but you're still looking at a fair whack of price and the materials are not cheap either and do have a limited shelf life.

I haven't seen any FDM printer that can give any better than fair results at best in their finish. Some of the thermoplastic extrusion ones seem to be a pure gimmick (or a joke).

With the prices how they are at the moment I think it's better to outsource the small amount of prototyping to one of the larger companies that have a high enough turnover of work to keep their top of the line machines serviced and good quantities of 'new' material to use on hand without it spoiling on the shelf.

I have a few things done in RhinoCAD. The entire Fox (gearboxes, chassis... everything) ready to mill in aluminium; Most of the DF01 buggy with a few modified parts to fix some of it's weaknesses (rear gearbox top cover); and the rest of it is all new parts like buggy interiors (Grasshopper, DT02, DF01, Bear Hawk, better FAV), and scale accessories for buggys and trucks. I would want to test fit these parts before outsourcing to have large numbers machined of the aluminium parts or of 'plugs' for the vac-former for the plastic parts.

I had that last link bookmarked already :) The Solido was missing from list of 'cheap' printers.


I think it has something to do with the rate that they print at to make things profitable for them. The positions of items such as holes are not off, so it is indeed probably accurate to 0.01mm - however, the powder has a certain grain and there may be some 'colladeral' melting of the powder, which when the parts are taken out isn't easily removed just by washing the excess powder off or putting a brush over it. I noticed that the holes could easily be opened up a bit without any force really, the powder just needed to be scraped out. I didn't use any sort of fit on the holes for the bushings so it would have been a tight fit when 100% accurate, but by the inaccuracies the bushings wouldn't fit at all. It seems that the first block I edited was the worst of the bunch, the others were easily fixed. The length of the mounting part between the suspension arm is probably modeled too long as everything else fits like a glove (and what a glove :D)

There are FDM printers out there that can print usable parts and could absolutely pro too if you use some elbow grease on them afterwards (sanding and/or filing them until they are smooth - so you would need to print it oversized). However, for now it's best to wait until the Objets are down from 20000 to say 5000USD :D

As for your work in Rhino, that's pretty impressive! I worked in Rhino for 3 months last year, and I was very happy when I made the switch to Solidworks. Rhino is great for freeforming, but I found it rather annoying to get accurate parts, whereas Solidworks is the opposite (which is also it's weakness: Some freeform shapes are practically impossible to model in Solidworks, let alone quickly). I hope I can try out 3DSMax and SolidThinking soon (the first I'm mainly interesting in discovering what it's animating and rendering capabilities are - the second I heard is a relatively freeform piece of software, but doesn't have some of Rhino's weak spots. Anyway, if you feel like sharing how you can conveniently model mechanical parts in Rhino it would be absolutely awesome :)

Update time: Pictures! :)
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I stripped and cleaned the Dyna yesterday, and today I decided to start rebuilding it. All the blocks have had the small mods now and were checked to confirm they fit :) The rear end is rebuilt now apart from the shocks - I'll likely fit TRF ones, which means the front shock tower will have new holes drilled in it and be cut down a bit. Then I'll add electronics and from that point I'll start testing: First on tarmac, and with a bit of luck on the 15th of April on a clay track! The other two sets will be dispatched tomorrow to the test drivers, Wildwillydriver and Shanks :D

PS: As you can see, the screws are extending quite a bit out of the nut. I used 16mm screws, so I guess 14mm should fit, and perhaps even 13mm :)

#14 Origineelreclamebord

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Posted 14 April 2012 - 05:13 PM

Update time:
Showroom entry

The first test run with the blocks has been made! It was on tarmac, so it was relatively gentle on the suspension, but to me it has passed it's first test with flying colours! :o There were no issues with the parts loosening thanks to the nyloc nuts, there is no other kind of damage (no surprise there :P), but most importantly, the handling felt good. There are some tweaks to be made with the setup, and the car felt very different from what I drove last year (which has everything to do with the TRF dampers, the tighter diff and slipper), but it felt good and after getting to know the car again I had enough confidence in the car to drive more agressively, which is a good sign if you ask me :D

I'll definetely run this car again soon - I just need to fix some issues: The ball connector(s) in the steering arms became loose-ish during the run and the battery I use nowadays fits perfectly in the tray... until the battery strap needs to be mounted to the car. The battery is too high, so I need a stepped mount, the rubber band I used worked ok but I want something safer offroad :P

#15 kontemax

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Posted 15 April 2012 - 01:06 AM

Have a look here:

http://www.tamiyaclu...a...1083&sid=24


Max


Update time:
Showroom entry

The first test run with the blocks has been made! It was on tarmac, so it was relatively gentle on the suspension, but to me it has passed it's first test with flying colours! :o There were no issues with the parts loosening thanks to the nyloc nuts, there is no other kind of damage (no surprise there :P), but most importantly, the handling felt good. There are some tweaks to be made with the setup, and the car felt very different from what I drove last year (which has everything to do with the TRF dampers, the tighter diff and slipper), but it felt good and after getting to know the car again I had enough confidence in the car to drive more agressively, which is a good sign if you ask me :D

I'll definetely run this car again soon - I just need to fix some issues: The ball connector(s) in the steering arms became loose-ish during the run and the battery I use nowadays fits perfectly in the tray... until the battery strap needs to be mounted to the car. The battery is too high, so I need a stepped mount, the rubber band I used worked ok but I want something safer offroad :P



#16 Origineelreclamebord

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 05:58 AM

Have a look here:

http://www.tamiyaclu...a...1083&sid=24
Max


Cool to see different solutions for it, I bet your blocks are indeed rock solid :blink: Thanks for the link. A while back someone told me he used modified RC10B3 suspension blocks - I haven't seen pictures of that yet though.

#17 Kevin_Mc

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 08:04 AM

very impressive Paul!

i had no idea that 3D printing could be used for parts like that

#18 Origineelreclamebord

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 09:27 AM

very impressive Paul!

i had no idea that 3D printing could be used for parts like that


Hehe, 3D printed parts are already as good as the real deal: TREK (bicycle/mountainbike brand) uses Objet printers for prototype parts in critical areas of their bikes:


Of course such advanced printers cost a lot of money, which means I'm restricted to using printing services. The supplier is relatively cheap and communication is easy even as a consumer, but I hope that in the future I'll be able to get access to superior materials. Nonetheless, the nylon my part is currently made of should be strong enough! :blink: I'm considering doing more parts for the Dyna (front suspension block, front uprights - that always break/crack at the top mount hole - the steering arms that have issues with loosening ball connectors) and potentially also other cars, I just need to wait how the result turns out when these parts get more abuse.

#19 Shanks

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 12:40 PM

I just need to wait how the result turns out when these parts get more abuse.


One Dukes of Hazzard / Knight Rider / A-Team / Fall Guy style jump coming right up :blink:

#20 Origineelreclamebord

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 10:46 AM

One Dukes of Hazzard / Knight Rider / A-Team / Fall Guy style jump coming right up ;)


:( Will the Dyna too be featured in a movie or series with a famous name? ;)

#21 Origineelreclamebord

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 02:14 PM

Update:

One of the test drivers (Shanks) went berserk on the blocks for a run, jumping, crashing, cartwheeling... The lot! One of the rear uprights did get a small crack, however, the suspension blocks held out without any signs of damage.

I've got a list of revisions to make on a final prototype, these will be in the next order I'll make at the 3D printing supplier. I am also looking at developing and ordering an all new front suspension block there as well at the same time.

#22 bjr250

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 05:26 AM

Excellent news that the parts are holding up well.

I need some front c-hubs - H1&2 as I think that after the D1&2 these are the most fragile.

The rear uprights C1&2 cop a lot of punishment as well especially if you cartwheel or have a heavy side-on impact with the track edge or kerb. The Super Astute shares the same C parts and I broke one clipping the edging on a corner apex. That your parts are stronger than these bodes well for their durability.

#23 Origineelreclamebord

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 07:30 AM

Excellent news that the parts are holding up well.

I need some front c-hubs - H1&2 as I think that after the D1&2 these are the most fragile.

The rear uprights C1&2 cop a lot of punishment as well especially if you cartwheel or have a heavy side-on impact with the track edge or kerb. The Super Astute shares the same C parts and I broke one clipping the edging on a corner apex. That your parts are stronger than these bodes well for their durability.


Thanks for the heads up :D Though I recall the DT02 uprights work as a replacement, it may be worth making 3D printed replacements for the front uprights. As for the rear uprights, I thought plenty of those were available? :) I guess it couldn't hurt though to make these available on order.

The parts I'm really interested in to replace are the arms from the steering rack. The ones I've seen often were cracked and the ball connectors/studs just wiggle their way out of the threads. I was thinking of doing a version that uses ball connectors with an inside thread, and using a screw through the part to secure them. It's more secure (especially with threadlock) and if the ball connector breaks off, there will be no remains of a screw that are a pain to get out. Just bolt in a new one!

#24 Origineelreclamebord

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Posted 25 May 2012 - 06:03 PM

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Here it is: Suspension Block V2.01! There are some updates done to it, here's a list and description/explanation of them.


Changes V1.01 (seen earlier in this topic) vs. V2.01 (seen on picture above):

- 3mm hole for shaft throughout part. This modification is done to do away with the need for the copper bushings. There are several reasons for this. First of all, it took some work on the prototypes to make the bushings fit. They have to be perfectly colinear to make the suspension shaft move smoothly. Making this happen without making a very loose hole was difficult. The easiest would be if there's one straight hole in them, carrying the shaft. Secondly, if the copper is replaced by material of the suspension block, there is more material in that part of the part's structure, thereby making it stronger at the edges. Then lastly, nylon, besides copper, is a common utilized material for bushings, so the part's material is kind of made for this job. Why not utilize it?
- Deeper cutouts for M3 nuts (1.5mm, was 0.75mm). This modification has been made because the 0.75mm cutouts for the nuts were too shallow to hold them firmly. The new 1.5mm depth should solve this.
- Cutout in bottom of part between mounting points. The part has so far proven very strong, so I had a look if there are spots in the part where material can be removed. Tamiya did this between the mounting points of the block. I decided to do the same, but without the ribs. This saves weight that doesn't really need to be there (it's the place where a completely solid structure doesn't seem to make sense).
- Part Version ID Embossed in cutout. This is a nice addition when when someone wants to order an older/replaced version of suspension block to keep a matched set of blocks.
- Rear Brace has become optional. This is because of several reasons. First of all, I think the part is strong enough on it's own (even this lighter version (than v1.01) is highly reinforced compared to the original. Secondly, it makes for more weight savings. Thirdly, and perhaps more important, I found out the Dyna Blater has the blocks further apart, requiring different rear braces! On top of that, they are unusable on the TR-15T. I decided to make the braces optional, it is only in the roughest of conditions I expect these to be necessary.



Edit: Not 100% relevant, but I also worked on an Astute/Super Astute rear block recently:

Posted Image

#25 Shanks

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Posted 25 May 2012 - 08:57 PM

You have a certified customer here Paul, A set of those Super Astute blocks would go nicely on my Astute project also wouldn't mind a set of the new Dyna block design for my Blaster, Have you got any prices for them? ;)



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