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Hibernaculum

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About Hibernaculum

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  • Birthday 06/03/1977

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  1. Thanks for the kind words. (Thanks to @Saito2 also) My goal in responding to this thread wasn't to derail it. But it was to remind everyone who openly supports repro products, how some of these products are damaging to Tamiya. And how Tamiya deserves respect for being a very old, traditional, family company. One of the last surviving in the hobby industry. I cannot think of another company which comes close on this respect, except for Schumacher. I think it's clear from the responses that there is a "spectrum" of views on repro. Many people say some repro products are OK. Those same people often admit that the chinese Bruiser clone is outright commercial plagiarism. The logical conclusion of this is: we cannot lump all "repro" into one basket and talk about either banning it or supporting it wholesale. So if some repro products are undeniably illegal commercial plagiarism that nobody on this forum can defend without their pants catching on fire - then yes @Ann3x it is my view that when this forum hypes and discusses and shares purchasing links about such illegal products on Tamiyaclub, that amounts to promotion. Promotion of a product which directly damages the company this forum exists to support and which everybody fawns over. Therefore, I wish Tamiyaclub would adjust it's site guidelines so that, yes - the forum was kept more "pure" - whereby "purity" means nothing more than the banning of products considered direct corporate theft against Tamiya. I don't think that's too much to ask. And Re: "limiting discussion"... Your discussion and speech is and has always been limited in various ways on Tamiyaclub, according to site policy. Swearing is not allowed - not even the softest and most garden of varieties. All CAPS posts are not allowed. Criticism of eBay listings is not allowed. Links to live auctions were not allowed or many years (though they are now). Avatars must be RC related. etc All fine. But some of these rules seem rather trivial, when put beside open support and discussion in favour of corporate theft and plagiarism. There is of course, an entry thus... 18. Due to recent legal issues, no manufacturer is permitted to advertise reproduction parts on any part of Tamiyaclub. Adverts for reproductions of (but not limited to) decals, bodyshells, driver figures, tyres are all banned. This is for products from all related manufacturers, not just Tamiya Links to sites distributing repro goods will also be removed and any 'homemade' products bearing branding or art will also be deleted. Wanted ads or posts for repro goods will also be deleted. Being by far the biggest vintage Tamiya discussion forum on the web, I often have no place else to go for a bit of fun chatting about vintage Tamiya - except Tamiyaclub.com. Hence why I cared enough to write the posts in this thread, after a 6 month hiatus (which itself was due in part to disillusion over all the enthusiastic threads about the Chinese Bruiser clone). And while I don't buy any repro personally, I'd be happy with some sort of compromise forum policy that straddles a line between "fair use" repro, and outright illegal repro. But I can't and will never support the current free-for-all, open season on the promotion of all repro products that the Tamiyaclub forums are currently engaged in. 🤷‍♂️ Anyway, I've more than said my piece as usual. Probably better for you lot, if I row back to my island and leave you guys to it 👍 You know where I am.
  2. Sorry, but while I can accommodate your other points, I can’t agree with this one. That statement is inflammatory and suggests some sort of conspiracy. Please indicate who you are referring to. Me? Nothing could be further from my mind, than “allowing less people access to the vintage part of the hobby”.
  3. Good explanation @markbt73 But wait, how is what @Collin is doing, not plagiarism? I assume by “offering” reverse engineered Tamiya parts on shapeways, Collin is “publicly selling”. (But I know nothing about shapeways functionality, so he can correct me if that’s not the economic reality). And surely the selling is the key determinant of plagiarism, rather than the “giving them credit” part. Otherwise the chinese Bruiser clone could just have a sticker on the box that said “Originally created by Tamiya!!!!!!!” to absolve themselves of all plagiarism charges. Which would be ridiculous. Making a copy for personal use, or free sharing among a few friends, has always seemed to me - reasonable. In any industry. As I’m sure we can all relate throughout the years (whether it was cassettes, MP3s, or custom parts for Tamiyas) And putting aside the debate about “out of print” products for a moment (a grey area)... It’s really the commercial sales of plagiarised products, which are still in current production, that I most object to. Because these are the least ethical cases, and also the ones that do the most damage to the rights holder (Tamiya).
  4. Whereas, I count and analyze the pattern of separators between the inner and outer rings of vintage Tamiya ball bearings, to ensure that if I'm putting some into a car, they are all the same type that came in that type of vintage kit... Still. At least the endorphin molecules released in my brain, probably look just like the endorphin molecules released in yours. Albeit, mine probably form some sort of orderly queue as they flow (chronological I hope).
  5. Vintage guy... so my answer is: Pretty much, yes. And I don't bash cars. So I stock up on the basics I care most about: Tyres/Wheels, Mechanical speed controllers, Gears and driveshafts. And where possible, spare bodies and decals. And sometimes, suspension arms. Those are the basic things that can make practically any vintage car seem near-new again. Never had a need to stockpile spare chassis, as I've never broken one. (And I'm not sure how people do it ) Yes Yes I've never purchased spare kits for parts. To me, kits are for new builds. Sometimes, I have gratefully purchased bargain spare kits that other people had used for parts that were only missing 1 or 2 parts, and then restored those kits back to completion - so that they are ready to be built if I decide to. I always find it fun to do that. 🤔 No. Because I'm all vintage, all the parts I have are from the era when Tamiya tended to identify them by the car they suited (not chassis). So I have a very specific drawer system where parts live in drawers belonging to "the first car in Tamiya's history that they were suited for". I also have a pin board mounted to the wall, where spares are hung on display. Hobby shop-ish. Again, all vintage, and the parts are hung according to vintage brand. Yes, OCD :| Then for the very smallest parts, I use the rare, official Tamiya spare parts containers with the labeled compartments, that were given out to Hobby Shops in the 1980s. I have... 7 of these. Plus some similar containers for other brands. Not really, as I don't really buy much new stuff where "platforms" are the identifying trait. So I don't think about platforms that much, and tend to think of the older cars as each having enough qualities for them to be justified more as unique kits. Hence, I like the variety from the golden era. It felt like Tamiya made more little changes from one car to the next, even if it reused the chassis. Kits felt a bit more special that way. And it was the same with Kyosho and other brands.
  6. Not offended at all mate. All these opinions are valid. 👍 And I can totally sympathise with tight budgets too (though I’d also never claim I haven’t been luckier than most people, in a lot of ways). Having said all that, there’s definitely a line across our expectations in life - beyond which entitlement can become an issue. 🤔 eg. Do I think it’s reasonable to believe that every owner of a Tamiya should be able afford to buy spare parts to keep it running for many years? Oh yes, I totally think that is pretty reasonable. Do I think it’s reasonable to believe that every person who wants to own a Tamiya Bruiser should be able to afford to buy one? No I don’t think that’s reasonable at all. The Bruiser is one of the Rolls Royces of Tamiya RC. I don’t believe everyone should feel entitled to get one just because they want one. Anymore than I think they should feel entitled to a top of the line sofa/jacket/shoes/watch/boat/lawnmower/house or anything else in life, just because they want it. Which is why I’d plainly disagree on ethical grounds with anyone who buys the chinese Bruiser using the excuse that they want one but ”can’t afford the Tamiya Bruiser”. It’s an illegal clone, it damages a company you may purport to love and that probably founded your love of RC, and it’s plainly unethical to buy it. Plus, the world simply doesn’t owe anyone a Bruiser. But sadly, ethics still go out the window when it comes to a lot of consumerism. A lot more people are more enlightened these days around environmental concerns with consumerism. But - I think we should also question the ethics of the companies we support. Both from an environmental standpoint, but also a creative, artistic and business standpoint. Every dollar we spend goes toward someone’s harbour yacht. Whether Shunsaku Tamiya has a yacht, or just a rocking chair, well, based on everything I know about him and what he’s done in his life I think he’s earned either. Whereas some greedy counterfeiting hobby business in China that’s actively cloning his work, and probably the work of others too, most definitely has not earned a donation from me. H. (Fun fact: I own zero Bruisers myself of any variety 😄 So - don’t anybody think I’m writing down to you from some high perch, atop a large stack of NIB vintage Bruiser kits....) (Fun fact 2: The perch is actually carefully positioned on a high stack of NOS vintage Sand Scorcher kits - all with black bumpers. Totally different).
  7. So just on that note... it sounds like you’re saying: that any owner of IP has an obligation to manufacture and sell their goods in perpetuity. Or else they only have “themselves to blame” - because we the public have a right to buy whatever we want whenever we want, and products should always be available. (I’m just clarifying the boundaries of this theory, so correct me if I’m wrong) So that means there are 2 broad approaches companies can take; 1) Manufacture the catalogue of products/remakes they want to + take reasonable steps to block counterfeits + encourage their customers to support their intellectual property. 2) Manufacture essentially everything they have ever manufactured, forever. As a means to deter counterfeiting. Can anyone think of a company that does #2?
  8. I suspect you’ll be ok and won’t lose out (unless you paid absolute top dollar for everything). I babbled about this in another thread recently, but my theory these days is that the existence of the internet perpetuates interests, hobbies, fashions and fads in a way that humanity has never witnessed before. Nothing is ever truly “forgotten” like it used to be, and social media keeps niche interests alive by allowing enthusiasts to keep connecting with each other... forever. This keeps the value of things alive too. Retro things are under a sort of ”constant renaissance”. Simple really: It was just a very poorly worded, poorly/overexposed photographed for sale listing that made you think the kit was incomplete. The seller had no idea though, and it was in fact totally complete. I quickly did a parts check based on the photos, and took a gamble with what I couldn’t see properly based on the likelihood the entire kit was probably intact. And the gamble paid off. I picked up a new built Opel Ascona complete with early short bumper, but lacking the body, for $100 around the same time. That was also cool. I could keep going. I found a new in box Radio Shack 4x4 Off Roader for $50 one day recently. These are worth about $300 in that condition... A mint new built original (and early vintage) unpainted Kyosho Scorpion for $150 was incredible too. With a mint LeMans motor. Again poorly listed on a website 🤷🏻‍♂️ Mint early “Goodyear” tyres and all. Of course I am not the only one who finds nice bargains occasionally, and there are many other stories on these forums. Just that if you are willing to search and search all the time, things like these *can* come up. And then it becomes (for me) a question of “why would I spend that little bit of money on something new and readily available, when next month (if I search hard of course) I might find more old treasure...?” 🤔
  9. Oh, the Tamiya paint stand has special racks for Tamiya enamel bottles, Tamiya acrylic jars, Tamiya rattle cans, Tamiya pens, and even other Tamiya accessories. For me, I am genuinely amazed that in a world where backward compatibility in any industry is usually limited to 5 years, maybe 10 years, or 20 years in extreme cases... Tamiya still manufacture the exact kit paints that are listed in their toy models from 40+ years ago. It's just not to be taken for granted. And so, when I can, I try to remember to buy spare paints and keep them. Call it "Tamiya Prepping".
  10. I may be totally alone on this one. Robinson Crusoe... But I thought I'd throw this out there anyway. Throwing myself to the wolves ... When the remakes began, I admit I had some misgivings about them, because I felt annoyed that I had spent a lot of time, money and effort collecting the originals. But that's not the reason I don't buy them these days. Because these days, they really don't bother me at all. And I think practically all fans, collectors and enthusiasts have gotten used to the idea that both the originals and remakes each have their place. Prior to Tamiya's first RC remakes, the mere concept of a retro "reissue" of an old R/C car was totally new to the R/C community. So I think when it first happened, there were a lot of wild predictions and some people leapt about either claiming vintage was doomed, or that the remakes were total replacements that undermined vintage collecting and value etc. I didn't believe this, and to be honest, I think none of it turned out to be true. Vintage prices fell initially - but have recovered strongly over the years. What's more, when remake kits are discontinued, even the remake values increase in price. So nobody needs to stress that they paid more for stuff that lost value... I think the value always comes back eventually. As many of you know, I am quite fussy about vintage vs remake. I just think this is a very important detail, for collecting purposes. But the differences the remakes have, are not purely the reason why I don't buy them... Also, I often buy retro remakes of other products - such as sneakers. So I am certainly not against "remakes" as a concept itself. I am happy when many things live on in remade form, and allow fans to enjoy a new cycle of them. The main reason I don't really buy Tamiya remakes is simply this: a remake might cost me anywhere between $150 and $600 for a buggy. And that's a lot of money I could be spending on vintage R/C stuff instead. So, to explain... Last year I sneakily bought another NIB Vintage Frog kit for a mere AU$200 (instead of the going rate - $700-$800). Right time, right place 🤷‍♂️ I also recently bought a NIB Hornet, Grasshopper and Super Hornet for a combined total of $1000 - a mere $333 per kit. When I know the occasional way to find cool stuff like that, I can't resist spending my money on more vintage things instead of remake things.... because at the end of the day, it's also the true "1980s article" that simply gives me the most joy. I also get a huge kick out of building and running cars stock-vintage, which I do occasionally (and gently). I love replacing NOS vintage spare parts too - again, because I know that being in the right place at the right time means that many such spare parts can also be found cheaply. I know many people only buy the remakes because it's cheaper to buy them NIB, bash, run, etc. But I have spent 20 years collecting online, and even longer collecting overall. And year after year, the honest truth is, I fumble around and find bargains that mean I am essentially paying the same for vintage, as many people pay for remake goods. Nothing shady either - just simple persistence and occasional nights awake in the wee hours buying or discussing with others. You might still be thinking "But how?". Well as Sun Tzu said, "Opportunities multiply as they are seized". The longer you collect, the sharper you get? 🤷‍♂️ And don't tell me the vintage stuff is inferior, brittle, old, weak etc... It so isn't. Tamiya plastic and rubber is incredible. The technology too, appeals to me - I like that the old stuff was inferior. I like the earlier thinking. I like seeing it work, and fail, and work again. Like repairing an old car from the 1960s. That's what it was, and where the legend was born - for better or worse. (mostly better). So when faced with 2 choices for a similar price, I can't resist the old plastic and rubber smell of old Tamiya kits over the new remake of the same model. The old stuff is an addiction. From the parts boxes to the non-shiny plastic, the non-bright-white wheels, the heavy bits, the overkill bits, the old ways of doing things, the genuine sponsor logos... and more. NiCd batteries even There's another chap I know in Sydney who feels the same way, but he never posts here. He only buys the old RC things, because it feels like old buried treasure - as opposed to newly minted cash. Anyway, feel free to disagree and tell me why I'm crazy. Or can some of you sort of understand this strange timewarp I live in? H.
  11. Confession: So I have a vintage 6ft tall metal Tamiya paint stand in my hobby room. It's the earliest type (metal) not the plastic ones you see in hobby stores now. It has a large Tamiya backboard sign, colour chart card, and even a side rack for "paint pens". Many of the paint slots are filled with paints now (each shelf/slot is labeled) though not all. Bit by bit I add more paints to it, so that it will eventually be filled - much like a hobby shop circa late-1980s which I think is when these paint stands were made. The labels on it only cater for the colours that were available back in the 1980s too - but that's fine for me, because all I really have are 1980s models. So I have two motivations - the fact I like my hobby room to be a little bit like a hobby shop. And making sure I have spare paints for the years ahead - just in case there is a paintpocalypse after some kid inhales a rattlecan directly, turns into a zombie, and all our paints get banned. As for vintage parts, I have drawers and containers... I have sold many hundreds of spares over the years, but still have what I think I need. Sometimes you end up with parts for cars you don't even own... but I can't bear to sell them, because as soon as I do, I know that particularly car will end up in my possession somehow! Funny. I don't have kids either. But I think some of my vintage stuff could be donated to museums in the end. 🤔 So I do think about preservation...
  12. That's nice of you to say. I guess at the core of everything I am saying though, is that I feel we need to appreciate the Tamiya company, and what it stands for, a bit more than we do. And consider what it means to respect it's products and it's history. Tamiya is not just another ordinary company listed on the stock exchange and using slaves to manufacture mediocre products at the lowest possible price, to be sold at the highest possible price. Tamiya is still a family company. A company of craftsmen. And the man who made it what it is today, is still alive and involved in the company. Shunsaku Tamiya is now 85 years of age. Do you know how many other great companies like that, which were founded by true enthusiasts and craftsmen, are still left in the world? Not many. And the nature of business tends to mean that most companies eventually lose what made them great - as they change hands and devolve into venture capital profit machines. Most of the other great R/C companies that existed during the "vintage" R/C era are also now well and truly different or have changed ownership from what they originally were. But not Tamiya. Tamiya is also the last company that manufactures any R/C cars at all, in Japan. Oh sure, we all say we appreciate and love Tamiya to some extent... and we think the proof is the fact we own some R/C cars and have spent some money on their products. But I think we owe a little gratitude beyond that. I think we should be a little grateful to have been alive when a company like Tamiya existed, and be grateful to have been children (or adults) who were able to enjoy such fine products during their heyday. We seem to think that anything we need or want should be obtainable at the cheapest price and by whatever means we like - such as repro or counterfeit goods. Because we feel entitled to getting whatever we want. But when you really consider what Tamiya did for hobbies and for the artform of modeling, that just seems selfish and even destructive. You can be as cynical as you like about Tamiya's current offerings and what you don't like about them (I have voiced my opinions on this many times), or about the transactional nature of what Tamiya products you buy and how much they cost. But despite all of that, I believe we should already remember the historical significance of what is, in effect, an artisanal company that began from nothing and honed it's craft to a fanatical degree - equal to the finest in any other industry. And ultimately defined and popularized a wonderful hobby that forms the very reason why this forum, this website, my website, my collection, your collection and all the stuff we love - exists at all. So I leave you with these quotes from the UK's "Car" Magazine back in 2009, when motoring journalist Nick Trott met and interviewed Shunsaku Tamiya at the Nuremburg Toy Fair... "Shunsaku Tamiya taught me how a differential works. I learnt about suspension from him and why it is important to centralize mass in a case. He educated me in the ways of chassis set-up, lightweight materials and complex transmission systems and he did it all for a modest fee paid mostly out of my pocket money." "Shunsaku Tamiya has lived an extraordinary life but remains deeply humble. He avoids eye contact with a small bow when I explained how his products contributed to a happy childhood (and also my obsession with cars) and whispers a quiet thank you at my embarrassingly gushing praise." "Mr Tamiya spent a huge portion of his life traveling all over the world taking tens of thousands of photos and making numerous measurements of military vehicles, racing and road cars, and aircraft. 'I traveled such a long way that I couldn't afford to make any mistakes with the research - sometimes I make a dark room in a hotel bathroom, London water was not very good...'" "One trip changed the course of the Tamiya Model Company forever. Having asked Fumito Taki to migrate the knowledge he gained from building radio controlled tanks into Tamiya's first radio controlled car, he tasked Taki-san with a new project inspired by witnessing the Baja races while visiting Southern California and Mexico. The subsequent 'Rough Rider' off road battery powered radio controlled car shocked the hobby industry with it's performance and engineering integrity - such were the incredible tolerances of the metal parts, the car actually performed better after a month or two of operation. It actually needed running in." "Despite Shunsaku Tamiya's wealth, he likes nothing more than to immerse himself in the world of models. Just before the show ends, I notice him sitting on his own, for once not surrounded by assistants whispering in his ear. Quietly he gets up, walks off the stand and disappears into the heart of this vast fair. I follow him for a while as he makes his way around the show carefully inspecting other products. Not once is he recognized... It is hard to think of Shunsaku Tamiya's contemporary in the car industry - or in any industry for that matter. The only people I can compare him with, are dead - Leo Fender, Enzo Ferrari, Ferdinand Porsche; artists, craftsmen and businessmen all. He belongs to another realm, one which we may never see again."
  13. 1) Not all sellers are ripping you off. Some do, but not all. I sold a mint, sealed NIB vintage Grasshopper kit a week or so ago, for exactly half the price or less than other NIB vintage Grasshopper kits on eBay. That and a vintage Hornet kit I listed, each sold within 24hrs as I just listed them for what I felt they were reasonably worth - not a speculative price. Nothing special about me. There are plenty of sellers like me. 2) “It’s not like Tamiya still make them” It took me 5 mins to see that TBG are selling Boomerang lexan bodies on eBay, while authentic Tamiya remake Boomerang lexan bodies are available from Timetunnelmodels.com and others. I bet there are dozens of other examples. 3) “If Tamiya continued to support cars for a decent length of time...” So the dozens upon dozens of entire kit remakes Tamiya has issued over the past 15 years, don’t count as “supporting cars for a decent length of time?” 4) “Patents in Japan last 20 years” So Tamiya has no further copyright or license over even the Tamiya products they have remade in the past 15 years? I find that difficult to believe. And anybody on earth can clone and sell with impunity, any product made in Japan so long as it’s past the magic 20 year age mark? I find that impossible to believe.
  14. Nice work @WillyChang @markbt73 I couldn't agree more on this though... I suspect it has also affected the long term collectable nature, desirability and value of the models too. 🤔 When Tamiya's RC line was organised by "Car name first" and cars had simple names, and parts lines were based around a specific car - every kit and parts line felt special. Like it was a unique and special beast. The fact some kits shared parts was secondary info. When Tamiya began consolidating and organizing their RC line by "Chassis ID first" and spruiked loads of interchangeable body shells.... it made the kits more generic. Just a platform for a shell. And when people hear the words "desirable", "collectable" or "valuable", do they also think of the word "generic"? Nope. Generic and desirable do not go well together. And maybe that is additional factor (on top of the "80s RC boom") that explains why mid-90s-onwards Tamiyas are still less desirable now at age 25 (year 2020), than the 1980s Tamiyas were at age 15 (year 2000).
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