[TT02 handling issues]

I’ve looked everywhere for guidance on this mod. Thank you for showing a picture. Can I ask how you did it? I see a shim and a button hex screw but it must be long. Shims between the upper and lower? Be grateful if you can shed more light. Thanks in advance. BG

[TT02 handling issues]

1 hour ago, Simon998 said:

I race in a TT02 'stock' series. I struggled for months to get my steering to an acceptable amount of slop, tried everything I could think of. The biggest difference was adding bearings to the steering arms.

4 x MF63ZZ Flanged bearings - https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/325225269272?var=514116339211
4 x 3mm x 0.3mm shims
Tamiya 54559 - TT-02 Suspension Arm Balls Low Friction

Drill the arms to 6mm and press in the flanged bearings, then put a 30mm m3 screw through the chassis with a 3mm 0.3mm thick shim either side of the bearing and fasten with an m3 locknut on the bottom of the chassis (You will see theres actually a recess there specifically for a captive nut). The shim allows you to tighten the screw down a little tighter without it binding against the chassis or screw head.

Remove the arm attached to the steering servo and tighten each screw on the steering mechanism until it's tight as it can be whilst still rotating freely. Then reattach the arm to the steering servo.

3mm shims can be used on the rear arms where the screws/pins hold the rear uprights, 5mm shims can be used to take the slop out of  the arms front and rear. I used a straight alu servo horn for a while but recently changed to a medium HD Kimborough servo saver and noticed no performance loss but hopefully my servo will have more chance of survival.

 

https://www.thercracer.com/2014/08/tamiya-tt02-guide-mods-tuning-and-tips.html  is worth a read.

Thank you. I’ve shimmed the suspension arms on the front, upper and lower where they pivot. I bought a Kimbrough but the wrong one (small) so I’ve used a plastic servo horn as a compromise for now, just to take out servo slop. The Kimbrough looks a good solution. I ended up taking the one I had apart to see how it worked. Its pretty stiff but will give- just a bit- when needed. I had fun getting it back together I can promise you ! I like that rather than relying on opening/expanding a bit of plastic (or metal with the High speed SS) to absorb shock, its actually a very powerful spring. Strong enough not to give at the first sign of torque but still pliable enough to take some shock.

i like your idea of firming up the steering arms with a bb and drill-through. Funny, but until I was shimming the front arms I hadn’t noticed how much play there was there. Ive gone with a Yeah Racing alu set so we’ll see if that fixes it. It bugs me the way I can’t reliably set a front toe angle because the whole assembly is so vague that the tires never sit in one orientation. I’ve also got a camber set coming.

Word from racers I know is that the better solution would be to start with an S but I’m committed now but yeah, anyone wanting a racing TT02 - start with the S would be my advice. The whole ball in cup kingpin thing on the base model is just not up to the task at hand really. Its a great, cheap rig that allows a shelf queen to have a turn round the paddock, so to speak, but for racing? I couldn’t recommend it. The money I’ve blown on trying to sort it out is insanity. My RTR Team A SCT 2wd - £270 - take out of box, add batteries, drives perfect.

I love Tamiya and the TT02 base model is a fantastic kit to learn with but it hits its limitations pretty quickly if one is trying to nurse it round a tight track in anger.

Shocks all seem far too hard IMHO. So far I’ve tried Fastrax and have Tamiya mini cva’s coming. The issue , as far as I see it, is springs. I just can’t find options out there. Got the extra Fastrax ones and they’re all too firm. There’s no real ‘shock action’ in them, no plushness, no travel, just thud-deadening really. Maybe I should have gone with one of the 55mm Yeah Racing set- standard or big bore. 
 

I’ve put AW in the front diff so we’ll see if that calms things down too. 
 

The journey continues.

 

cheers BG

[TT02 handling issues]

Well, things have moved on.

Discovered I’ve misunderstood EXPO completely. Had my steering EXPO rigged for MORE turn in the early part of the action, not less. Also going to dial back throttle EXPO so I get a more progressive laydown of power. Should help with breaking traction and help with the fishtailing.

Also noticed that even with the high torque servo saver I wasn’t getting the wheels recentering properly so I had a REALLY good look at what was going on. I could see that the outer black band of the servo saver was absorbing some force as it was widening to reveal more of the outer gold, metal ring underneath it beyond a centain level of throw/turn. On closer examination, despite having removed the D15 part under the driveshaft it was clear the steering was reaching its limit and the servo saver was expanding to take up the additional throw. This caused the blue aluminium servo horn to have some play and get knocked from one side of the black ring to the other. So where was the limiting part if not D15? Its a little bit of plastic on the moulding of the knuckle/steering hub. So I dialled back the steering EPA until it just touched the body at full lock. Servo expansion solved= wheels centre every time. 

Fitted Yeah racing turnbuckle set and ball studs between servo horn and bridge - wow! So much slop gone ! Also able to centre the servo bang on so both arms that link the bridge to the steering linkages sit equally at centre. I’ll add the YR ball and TB’s steering linkages next. Beyond that the play is in the suspension arms where they connect to the knuckles/hub carriers but to be honest, just with the servo linkage- I’ve lost about 70% of the slop. Probably best value upgrade I’ve made so far plus the rear toe-in knuckles.

 

Tried putting a YR Tornado fan directly  on the heat cover mounting that sits around the motor but it only works in ‘suck’ orientation. In ‘blow’ i.e. with forced air hitting the motor, there’s some sort of Ground Effect where the blowback from the fan stops it from working…I think. Maybe a bracket or maybe removing the cage over the motor and mounting it on its side where the on/off switch mounting would have gone is the answer.

Also looking at tyre treads. There’s a tread pattern that seems to be just designated as ‘rally’ or ‘gravel’ that I’ve heard is good. Tamiya don’t do one and neither do any of the other big players I can see. Its not pins, spikes, radials or slicks. More like a hexagonal tread sort of tread. Hard to explain. Its not rally blocks either (edit)

 

Finally, I’m going to try stuffing the front diff with silicone earplugs. Seems bonkers but I’ll give it a shot. Got some ready to roll. Weird stuff, bit like the consistency of a jelly baby.

 

Anyway, the transmitter settings should be better now, the steering slop is MUCH better and its all making more sense.

 

best wishes, BG

[TT02 handling issues]

On 6/28/2023 at 9:51 PM, Pylon80 said:

Rear toe-in will make the car more stable directionally much like the fins of an arrow.

Caster is the angle the imaginary axis passing through the top and bottom front suspension balls makes compared to vertical, or if you prefer, as viewed from the side. You will read that if affect straight line stability; this is true on a full scale vehicle when you let go the steering wheel but I am not sure how much it applies to an RC car with a strong servo holding everything still. It does however massively change the amount of camber that the front wheels take on as you make steering inputs. Very steep caster in my experience tends to make the car more twitchy and harder to drive (which can be beneficial on low traction surfaces) while a very reclined caster will promote smoother and more forgiving steering response. I do not know why Tamiya chose a very steep angle on the TT-02.

Ive got a pair of 3degree rear knuckles coming.

Caster, like ackermann, is something a bit beyond me (although ackermann seems more straightforward to visualise to me) for now. Again, maybe I’m underestimating this. At 12 I doubt if I cared if my Frog went all over the place as I was just so delighted to have it. That joy has never left me and `i’m chuffed to get another stab at this hobby in later life. I’m genuinely utterly surprised at the TT02 though. On tarmac in the days before the race it was great on its supplied 26mm radials. Took it the track = dalek. So weird.

Thank goodness for the info around on the web. In the 80’s it was a few rc magazines with places and equipment totally inaccessible to me. My 4 minutes with my one Nicd pack and Acoms charger were simple and basic but fun.

 

cheers

 

BG

[TT02 handling issues]

On 6/28/2023 at 8:08 AM, Jonathon Gillham said:

I don't know those universals, they may fit the standard diff outdrives. Worth checking

 

I feel your pain. I got back into offroad with secondhand race kits and cheap electronics and it was awesome. I got back into onroad with a TA07Pro and it was so frustrating. That car ended up as basically a TA07MS by the time I finished with it. Would still be running it but it got ruined in a flood. I replaced it with a Yokomo BD11 and its night and day difference. First time at the club and I was quicker despite spending a season on setup with the other car. If you like racing (as in the whole experience, wrenching, banter, a day at the track with friends) then the race kits are worth the money as they are fast out of the box. And cheaper to buy it already done rather than upgrade over time

I’m totally seeing the pre-hopped up versions of something as the right way, where available. Still, I also see the basic versions as a perfect gateway for limited budgets, kids, bashers, shelf queens etc. Interestingly the Team Associated Pro2SC10 is a total hoot out of the box in RTR format. Maybe I’ll unscrew it all, throw everything in a bag and build it from the exploded diagram for that Tamiya Kit Vibe. It was a warehouse 2nd - some minor scratch on the bodyshell I think. £230 all in. Immediate hoots. Its hard to argue with that sometimes.

 

cheers

 

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[TT02 handling issues]

On 6/28/2023 at 7:56 AM, one_hit said:

In my opinion, OP should stick and learn with the TT-02. A better chassis doesn’t make a better driver, practice does. And by practice I mean driving around a track and not just on the street. The only thing better in the TT01E than the TT-02 is the steering, everything else is worse. It’s a pain to access the diffs, you have to trim the battery tray to fit lipos, if you strip or crack the screw holes for the upper arm mounts you have to replace the tub. Parts are harder to get for the TT01 too. I haven’t touched my TT-01E in years, it’s just collecting dust in the shelf because the 02 is so much better for me. 

Fair points. Agree that TT01e isn’t the right direction. Learning, stick time, experience. No running away from this car until I’ve given it my best shot. Final thing will be to hand it to an experienced driver at the club to see if they have the same issues. That’s the acid test.

 

cheers

 

BG

[TT02 handling issues]

On 6/28/2023 at 3:51 AM, Kowalski86 said:

I'm sorry to hear about your poor track experience.

I haven't been thrilled with the handling in my TT02 either. My TT02 Type S (with aluminum steering) was fine, but after trying a regular one on a make shift course I wasn't impressed.

A part of the problem is the screwy plastic ball suspension, the plastic balls can create friction and really fowl up your steering, a cheap fix is part 53662 that replaces the plastic ball links with turnbuckles.

A high torque servo saver will mostly fix some of the slop and poor return to center.

The dogbone issue is common unfortunately, out on the street I haven't had mine pop out, but hitting track walls can knock them out.

I would NOT put much money into a TT-02 though, maybe a few upgrades, but otherwise I'd try something else for driving around a track.

For anyone who has raced, would an M05 or TT-01E be better for the OP?

Thanks K,

 

53662 is exactly what I went for. Mark Bryan RC on youtube suggested the same. Just fitted it. The little turnbuckle wrench is….little. However I dare say once its set, its done. Gotta read up on front toe in or out as not only should 53662 perform better than the plastic balls but it gives toe options.

High torque servo saver is here. One with the blue alu horn. It comes with a bolt and screw for the link arm at the horn end of the link to the bridge but I can’t see that being a good fix so I’ve got Yeah (‘Yea’ as in ‘free’ or ‘yeah’ as in ‘flare’ - Ive heard both on YT) ballstud and turnbuckles coming which then gives trim options. Frustratingly the plastic bit of the servos saver won’y sit band on ay vertical on the spline its either just left or just right. Another turn buckle should mean `I can square the trim up at the car and take that off the transmitter.

New Fastrax universal to fit on the front in due course. Also ordered a Hobbywing alu heatsink and fan. Won’t fit. No way that’s going in the available space. Into the parts collection for a future project perhaps.

Trackwise, I need to either pin down if the errors of vast oversteer are the car, the transmitter, the tires, me and to what extent each. I’m thinking of maybe going XV01 for fully rally and this kinda ‘hybrid’ track I’m at but also love the M chassis. The newest version looks fun with its multi-configuration options. MB01 I think. Could be loads of fun.

 

cheers

BG

[TT02 handling issues]

Another point - maybe for a different part of the forum - but when I log into BRCA and click ‘clubs’ all I get is an invite to become affiliated for £1 and some offers to buy numbers? I was hoping I would find a list of all the affiliated clubs which would help me a lot but nothing.

 

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[TT02 handling issues]

4 hours ago, Pylon80 said:

Plus 1 on the universals. @BigG22 you report reminds me of when I took my TT-02 to the track (indoor concrete) the first time. Discouraging!

As others have said, tires will make the biggest difference. There is a reason why racing classes have a spec for motor turns and tires above anything else: they are what makes the biggest difference. The guys doing good with rally cars probably have the tires you need.

The only advice I would give if you are still struggling with the car wandering left and right and yourself going from lock to lock: try reducing the steering EPA to the minimum you need for the tightest corner at your track. Then consider addressing 2 known limitations of a stock TT-02 for handling:

- Rear toe-in uprights in stock form are exactly 0deg, when 3deg is pretty much standard in touring cars these days. Sadly the Tamiya hop-up ones (2.5deg or 3deg) are extremely expensive and hard to find. Yeah Racing makes some semi-decent ones in either 2deg or 3deg for about half the price.

- Caster angle on a stock TT-02 is not nearly sufficient making the car twitchy (when the tires work); a simple fix is to flip the upper arms to increase caster... this is free

Yeah, discouraging. Everyone else is bombing around and I’m standing on the stage looking like a lemon (I thought it disrespectful to my fellow racers to leave during the race)

The touring/rallying is a bit of an add on here. Couple of heats. Its a bit of a free for all from what I can gather. I’ll know more after next time. I thinks its considered just a bit of fun, which is fair enough. As far as tyres are concerned I’m gonna have more options than the local tyre centre at this rate. I’m just itching to know what rigs others are running. I was too flustered with the motions of going through a race night first time. 
 

Yes, I’ve heard about these rear toe in uprights/knuckles. I’ve heard contradictory things about what they bring to the party but since no one is offering toe out rears’ I’m guessing its gotta be a good thing and a needed thing.

Caster - you got me there. i believe its the turning angle of the wheels set by the uprights’ pivot point in relation to vertical/90 degrees? As far as changing the uprights around, isn’t that one of the things that affects wheelbase? Sorry, I’ll have to go back to the manual. I do know that the manual said my version was ‘short’ but the body said it was ‘standard’ (which indeed it was as in short configuration the wheels rubbed on the back of the wheel arches). Pretty sure that was a ‘flip the wishbones thing but I’m almost certainly wrong). Thank you for the tip. If I can do it, it’ll be done. Anything to throw some coffee down the daleks’ throat right?

 

I’m going to know the parts of that car better than I know myself at this rate- ha ha

 

cheers 

 

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[TT02 handling issues]

15 hours ago, Jonathon Gillham said:

My son had a similar issue with his TT02, it was the drift one with the right tyres for the surface.  The drift just means it came with oil shocks and bearings once you swap the tyres.

Front dog-bones - they pop out if you look at them funny.  You have to get universals.  Yeah Racing do some which work fine, but you also need the diff outdrives to match with whatever you get.  The club actually changed the rules to allow universals due to so many DNF's.

Servo saver - this seems to fix a lot of the issues, I went with the Tamiya hi torque one.  The kit one just wouldn't centre properly

Wheel hexes - I have no idea why, but switching to alloy ones made a big difference.  I think it was because the kit ones were moulded to look like brakes so they wobbled around a lot.

Also the kingpins would pull through on the uprights.  This was fixed just by using unused shock pistons as big washers.

The above got the car to the point it could get around the track without DNF's and thats where I would stop with the TT02.  There are variants like the Type S, SR and SRX which by all accounts fix a lot of the problems with the TT02, but if you didn't start with one of those then I would just run the car for a while and then plan to upgrade to something else.  Don't throw more money at it.  The steering upgrade is expensive and I'm not sure it would make that much difference anyway, so like you're doing just try to find work arounds.  That car has been replaced with a TB05R and its night and day difference (but with a price to match!)

 

Thanks,

Got Fastrax universals for the front coming but didn’t get the diff cups. Add that to the list I guess. Also the Tamiya hi torque coming but reading that I’ll need something extra to connect it to the bridge. Wish I had gone for the Yeah Racing turnbuckle set now as it included it. The Tamiya set I’ve got coming only has the two for the steering knuckle linkages. Bah.

I tried the deep hex rear plastic discbrake thingies then realised the kit had not been supplied with the long drive shaft/cups so the wheelnuts didn’t get near to covering the threads. I’ve got some cheapish 6mm alu hexes coming for all round to replace the supplied plastic disc brake/hex moulded bits. 

Got some thick HPI grease to go into the front diff case as I’ve read that stiffening up the diff at the front is a good idea. Couldn’t find the Tamiya AW 1g grease and not sure if the 3g tube is the same stuff.

I haven’t decided how far I’ll go with it but if I’m still dancing with a drunk dalek not only will I ditch further work on the TT02, I’ll probably ditch racing full stop.

I’ll reprt my next outing- just for laffs etc.

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[TT02 handling issues]

1 hour ago, Willy iine said:

Yeah, and there's nothing to be ashamed of either.   I do it all the time when some motors are over powering the chassis potential for the driving space.   No one said one has to use full power.. I mean I never drive my 1:1 car out of my garage going full throttle. lol 

EPA just stands for end point adjustment for that channel.  Throttle and braking belongs to channel 2 so you are just electronically limiting the end points.   Same for steering on channel 1 if your servo over swings you don't want the steering linkage (and servo saver) to take the unnecessary force when turning full lock.

Classic and true

[TT02 handling issues]

1 hour ago, sosidge said:

If it's mainly a buggy club and there are bumps and jumps in the track you are going to be on the back foot with a touring car. Buggies are built for that surface and have the suspension and tyre options to match.

This is very true. Its not ideal but there’s really no indoor carpet clubs that do 1/10th touring/ rally x I can get to easily. 
 

Some of the rally guys have it totally dialled in though so it must be possible. Marshalling gave me a close look at just how good they are. I heard there may be some other chassis platforms in the mix such as xv02s etc so I’ll scope that info too next time.

Couple of outdoor spots not far away but guess that’s gonna be very seasonal in the UK.

Its a lovely club but I’m just not a buggy guy. £1000 X Rays/TA’s and Losi’s and the like are not my gig. Prefer closed wheel. The more level playing field the better.
 

Just been checking each link in the steering setup for binding (I’m waiting on a few bits). The stepped screws on the bridge and and pivot arms are fine but the link that join the pivot arms to the front knuckles are really shoddy. Quarter turn too tight? Start to bind. Loosen off a tad ? Risk spitting that screw in a race. Its not a great basic setup so I’m going to shift to turnbuckles and ball studs instead of screws that are trying to perform counterintuitive roles of locating…without securing. 
 

I would happily switch to M chassis but just can’t find anything within my radius.
 

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[TT02 handling issues]

2 hours ago, one_hit said:

As everybody has mentioned, tires will make the biggest difference so try that first. I’d also sort out the steering because in the TT-02 it has a lot of slop and will cause the car to constantly veer to the sides and you having to constantly correct it. I’d start with a high torque servo saver (51000) then the steering linkages. Genuine Tamiya is expensive but is the nicest one. If on a budget you can also get the cheaper Yeah Racing steering set. With those upgrades your TT-02 should be able to track straight. 

Got the high torque ss coming. Also some turnbuckles but just didn’t want to shell out £60-£70 just yet. Most of the £ I’ve spent since has gone on wheels and tyres with a few other bits. I probably need to find a few more tracks that do rally/touring 1/10th on carpet. BRCA’s site, despite having joined fully, doesn’t show a club list when I log in. Nothing.  Ive contacted them but they’ve seemingly got nothing to say as I haven’t heard a murmur out of them.

 

cheers

 

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[TT02 handling issues]

4 hours ago, Willy iine said:

Yeah, agree with @Snappy1, I think the tires were just not meant for your driving surface.  I would ask around which tire (and wheels if different diameter,  width) your local folks are running on that particular track to see what they recommend.

GL and don't give up @BigG22!!  

Also, since you mentioned your radio offers EPA, you can turn your max throttle down to say 50% to start.. it will only output half the power of your motor, kind of like trainer mode.  Once you get a hang of things, increase at your own pace and hopefully back to 100% soon.

The throttle reduction makes sense. I can’t really do any worse- haha. Out of interest, why EPA for throttle and not say, DR? Just curious.

 

cheers

 

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[TT02 handling issues]

7 hours ago, Snappy1 said:

My 2 cents, stick with it, sort the mechanical issues, I think the tyres are probably the biggest issue with handling.

Thank you. I hope so but it feels more….fundamental than that somehow? Threadlock on its way

cheers

 

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[TT02 handling issues]

7 hours ago, sosidge said:

Indoor astroturf? Very unusual surface, especially if combined with pins as the tyre. I'd ask around the pits for advice.

It may simply be that you were on the wrong tyres. Is anyone else running the Tamiya kit tyres? Tyres are 90% of setup. 

Otherwise, if the car won't track straight I would be looking at a mechanical issue first. Since you have had so many breakages it sounds like a good opportunity to rebuild the car and make sure everything is built exactly to kit specifications. That's always the best way to try and fix a car that is completely undriveable.

There could be isses with the drivetrain, the steering system, the suspenion... almost anything. Tamiya are not in the habit of making undriveable cars. Also check the servo horn is the correct one for the servo you have.

But tyres might be the solution.

Yep, indoor astroturf. It’s mainly a buggy club so a few humps as well. Pins because as I’ve looked round the web, pins seem to pop up as the main choice.

I was lent a set of SST Rallys which seemed a tad better than my radials. So, staggers, pins, radials…the only other things to try are rally blocks and slicks. We’ll see.

Asking round the pits - yeah, I’ll be a bit more prepared next time and between races I’ll get round the tables and see what the rally guys are fitting.

Stripping the car back to basics is a good idea. Ive got a FT pair of front universals, a Tamiya High Speed servo saver kit and other little bits coming so when they get there I’ll take the time to strip, clean, re-lube and check against the manual that its all going together right.

Power HD 13kg metal gear servo. Fit seems good but I get the issue of the servo not returning exactly to centre after left full lock but off the car the servo is bang on. So many issues.

I’ll lower the ground clearance to standard by reversing the knuckles)

As you say, could be endless things…including user incompetence of course.

I’ll persevere for a while but I’m not confident at the moment.

The only other time I’ve driven the car was in a carpark on radials and it was exactly what I expected. Straight enough, held a line, cornered well etc.

On race night, just overcorrect, overcorrect, overcorrect, smash, overcorrect, overcorrect etc. Soul destroying really. Certainly no fun.

 

cheers

 

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[TT02 handling issues]

Hello everyone,

 

I’m an old bloke who had a Frog in the 80’s and thought I would get into a bit of local club racing.

Track is indoor and Astro Turf.

TT02 is new.

Has my first go last week. Total disaster. Like trying to dance with an angry, drunk Dalek on an ice rink !

I knew I wouldn’t be anywhere near as good as everyone else but I at least hoped I could get more than 6 feet in a straight line. All I managed was bashing from one side to the other, constantly lock to lock. The car was virtually uncontrollable for me.

On top of that the car managed to switch itself off at the on/off switch, pop a front dogbone, spit its servo retaining screw and finally uncoupled the pinion. Probably a mercy under the circumstances.

The mechanical bits I can learn from and fix but the handling?

I’m looking at transmitter controls like Expo, steering speed, EPA and Dual Rates.

Also going to move away from the supplied 26mm hubs and radials to try 24/25mm Schumacher SST rally and  mini pins.

Gotta be honest - if its really that hard I’m not sure this is for me.

 

Any advice most appreciated

 

BG