TAZ-NZ
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Posts posted by TAZ-NZ
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Here's the scan of the Top-Force FRP plates. Please excuse the red dirt stains this chassis does get a lot of use. File is large, 1.43mb.
Cheers, Mark
Thanks, that's great mate.
I'll give you a tip, before posting any image on the web open it in MS Paint and save it as jpg, even if starts out in jpg format the file size will be reduced 20-50% with very little loss of quality. I got your image down to 716kb.
oh and who cares about the dirt, rc cars are designed to be run.
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What an awesome project! I've just send you a PM regarding some links where you can find these parts you're looking for as I don't know if its against the forum policy to post these links here.
Thanks for the link, I may have to re-think the idea of cutting down the Top Force lower plate, my chassis is a full 80mm shorter and there may material missing on the top force lower plate where I need to mount some items.
you can mount the steering servo on the upper deck, however, you're better off swapping the steering belcrank to a 90 degree unit, instead of the TF's 180 degree unit. So the servo saver will face the side of the chassis, not the front.Argh, Slaps head. Why the badword* didn't I think of that!
I hate you in the nicest possible way.
That means I can stick to a standard battery and use the Top Force battery mounts. I found a Team Associated servo horn set that should give me the parts I need to make this work, I tried finding a suitable tamiya part but came up empty.
(* badword not as bad as one might think.)
I do have a spare TF upper and lower plates I was offering last time, but you're too late, I've just used them for my 200mm wide TA01 project... and no, not gonna let you cut them. you're free to take measurements off them though, as soon as I got a scanner.A scan of the chassis plates would be great, if you've got a steel rule throw it on next to chassis plates when you scan it. I only looked at cutting up a FRP chassis plates as they're re-release items and still available, I wouldn't cut the carbon fibre or vintage items.
Anyway your idea was so good I whipped up a top chassis plate and mount a servo to it, look like it will work perfectly. I put the servo horn to the back to give the link to the 90deg steering cam a better angle, I'll probably have to adjust a few thing once I get the Asssociated parts.
This is starting to take shape nice. i'd make the chassis plate a little bigger so its a good few mill away from the body you should be able to lay 3 sub c sells down then , you can get then 2 schumacher battery plate / holder thing then to hold the 3cells flat each side, this way you have all the centre free for mounting the servo etc..keep the pics coming
CAD
Yeah, I look at the idea of NiHm saddle pack with 3 cells each side of the chassis, but it had the same issues as the LiPo saddle pack very little room to work with. IrenL idea solves my battery space & steering servo mounting issues, and I can mount the ESC on top of the rear transmission above the motor just behind the steering servo, and the Hitec DCX receiver I use is so small, I can probably squeeze it on the lower plate between the battery and front diff assembly.
Here's one more picture for you, I was test fitting body to see if my first attempt at a from body mount worked, I made it with a Brat front body post & modified the Brat body post mount so I could screw it to the TA02 front shock tower mounts.
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Perhaps you should look into Lipo Saddle packs. You can place them on the sides and have room in the middle for esc, servos, receiver?
Yeah, I'm been think the same thing, mounting the servo on the top deck is going to be more to work that it first seemed. If I go with a saddle pack and a Hitec Mighty Mini Servo and mount the receiver and ESC on the upper deck, I may just be able to fit everything in, the 180mm wheel base leaves zero room to move.
If switch back to the TA02 steering parts and widen the chassis some, I should be able to squeeze a Maxamps lipo saddle pack in there, I've got less than 70mm between the motor and the steering cam on the left side of the chassis, the maxamps lipo is 34mm X 66mm X 25mm, which is insanely tight.
On a side note, I'm thinking I may cheating a little on the chassis plates, the re-release Top Force 2005 (58362 ) FRP chasis plate are still listed as avilable on Tamiya USA website, I'm thinking I grab a set if I can and just cut them down to size, lot easier than starting from scatch.
Problem is can't find anyone that stock them that ships internationally, so if anyone can help me source the following parts I'd be very grateful.
4025027 Lower deck.
4025028 Upper deck.
9465396 Screw Bag A
9465397 Screw Bag B
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The top force chassis posts I need turned up today along with few other parts, so added all the rest of the mounting points to the bottom plate of the chassis, and mounted everything with parts from the top force J-tree, It's now strong enough to be free standing even without the top chassis plate.
I also started on the steering, I dumped the TA02 items in favour of the top force items, which I linked together with the TL01 steering cross bar, I still need need to sort out the steering links to the front knuckles and how to link it to the servo.
I thing I'm going to go with the Top Force battery holders, as I've already got the J-tree, and the split pin posts, just need to make the battery hold downs, of course this means the protype bottom plate for the chassis is too narrow, it needs to be about 15mm wider on each side, but that's why it's a prototype.
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Its coming along nicely.
What you could do is laminate either side of the balsa with a couple of layers of 200g/m fibreglass. Although this would only be a temporary measure as the balsa can still soak in water.
Where abouts are you from?
The balsa is just temp meassure for the design stage, I'll take the diamension once I'm happy with the design and I'll make new plates from aluminum or possibly carbon fiber sheet.
I live in Tauranga, New Zealand.
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Well I got some balsa wood and started on the prototype lower deck, it's rough but it's doesn't have to be purfect it's just for me to get dimensions and to get an idea of what will work best.
I test fitted it to check the wheel base, had to place it in the upturned body as the with only the lower deck and four screws it's not stong enough to hold up all the weight. Hopefully some more parts I need will turn up tomorrow and I'll be able to work out the rest of the lower deck mounting points, and start on the upper deck.
The link between the steering knuckles is just there to make handling of the front assembly easier, it will no be part of the final build.
I also checked out the fit of the rear stabilizer today, looks like I can use the TL01 stabilizer kit un-modified and just mount it to the rear transmission with the TA02 stabilizer bracket, I haven't fitted it as yet as I'd only have to remove it to do the final assembly of the rear transmission.
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Well I start the build by disassembling the Hummer chassis, on first inspection it looked to in good condition with only a few scratches on the parts I expected to re-use.
The only negative with the front diff assembly was the lower king pins were missing and had been replaced by other screws, and the steering knuckles are a little worse for rear. I was planning on replacing the steer knuckles & C-hubs with TL01 items and the lower suspension arms with stock TA02 items, but the standard Hummer items work purfectly for my needs so I retaining the entire stock Hummer front diff & suspension assembly, I'm waiting on some parts before I re-assemble the diff fully.
The rear transmission started out promising, but on removing and inspecting the diff, I realised instead of the ball diff I had expected to find it was a bevel gear item and it was glued closed, the spur gear also show noticable signs of wear so I've order replacements for both. The TL01 lower rear suspension arms fit well, but the rear shock tower is too far back for the TL01 upper rear arms, I should be able to get around this with the adjustable upper arms I have on the way, I fitted TL01 2deg toe in rear uprights which which should help handling.
This is a quick mock up assembly with no internals in either the front diff or rear transmission, but the suspension and wheels are fitted as they will be in the final setup. The axles are spaced to match the body's wheel base, and the battery is there just to check there will be enough room for it and the steering linkages. The steering servo will be mounted on the upper deck of the chassis over the battery. The front and rear wheel track has worked out purfectly in my book, so progress is good to date.
Tomorrow I'll pop down the local hobby store and grab some 3mm balsa wood sheet and dope, it will let me easily protype the chassis plates which I'll later make from aluminum or carbon fiber.
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This build is inspired by the half dozen or so Wild Willy 2 -> Willy's Wheeler conversions kicking around the place, while the WW2 conversions are true to the feel of orginal Willy's Wheeler, I wanted something with a bit better handling, so after a bit of research I decided to go with a modified TA02 chassis for this project.
Hopefully it will look something like this when finished.
But currently it looks like this.
The last of the major parts turned up the post today, so I can get started but there are a number of small parts bags still on there way. I had to source the parts from over a dozen different sources in JAPAN, USA, UK, SINGAPORE, and HONG KONG, and I'm still working on a couple of items, the shipping costs are killing me, but it's still easier & cheaper than getting the same parts locally.
The basic idea of the project is I'll take the Hummer TA01 chassis and shorten it by lossing the stock chassis tub and replace it with a custom double layer plate chassis. I'll narrow the rear wheel track by replacing the whole rear suppension and axle assembly with TL01 rear suspension parts. Fit Voltec Fighter wheels & tires, sort out the battery, servo, and body mounts and put it all together into something that will hopefully handle as good as it looks. Well that's the plan, wish me luck
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Hi all,
is it possible to fit the 9115041 Top Force J parts to TA02 carbon chassis plates? The catch is that the 53166 FRP chassis set is quite rare and who wants the whole set if he will replace the FRP plates for carbon and many of the plastic parts for alloy any way. But the 0115177 J parts of the set (battery holder etc.) is evidently not available alone at all.
Has anyone done this, is it actually possible? The pictures I have seen indicate that some parts are identical and others arent. Or maybe the battery holder can be improvised in a different way?
Looking at the details of TA02 FRP chassis and comparing them to the Top Force chassis, if you have a Top Force J Parts tree (9115041) and Top Force Evo Mount Bag (9405756) you should have no issue mounting the TA02 Rear transmission & Front Diff to the TA02 Carbon chassis plates & with a little tinkering get the steering to work. But the Top Force chassis looks to be noticeably wider than the TA02 Carbon chassis, so I don't beleive the Top Force battery holder will work which is the problem most people have the TA02 carbon chassis plates.
Not sure that infomation helps you, but your question helped me. I'm currently working on a project where I'll be making a custom TA02 FRP style double deck chassis and the Top Force J Parts & Mount Bag solve my problem on how to mount the transmission & front diff & possibly the battery too.
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Ok, after going back over a dozen different tamiya manuals, carefully re-reading the Wheeler.doc file, and all the posts in this thread, and cross refrencing it all, I've got a final version to my plan.
I must have had blinders on when I first read some of the post because I total missed what some people were saying, B.M.T. in particular it seams, but other too, on re-reading I gained alot more insite than I did the first time around.
First thing I noticed is that in the WR-02 (Wide Willy 2) to Willy's Wheeler conversion, they moved the TG10 long stub axles (50808) & hexs to the front and replaced them with TG10 short axles (50823) at the rear, this effectively widens the front wheel track and narrowed rear wheel track by the same amount. Now as the TG10 long axles add about 8mm to the wheel track, effectively the Willy's Wheeler conversion has the same front wheel track as a TA02W chassis and the rear wheel track is the same as the TL01.
So that means instead of using TA01 front suspension arms to get the same front wheel track as the TL01 and then widening it by using the long TG10 axles, I can in thoery use the longer TA02 front suspension arms (50649) and 42mm dog bones with the TL01 steering knuckles & TG10 short stub axles (50823) to obtain the same front wheel track as the Will's Wheeler conversion, and this now what I plan to do.
So it will have:
TA01 Transmission & Front diff. (From a M1024 Hummer)
TA02 Front suspension arms & front dog bones.
TL01 Steering knuckles.
TL01 Full rear suspension setup & dog bones,
TG10 short stub axles all round.
Voltec Fighter 29/75mm wheels on the front.
Voltec Fighter 42/75mm wheels on the rear.
Custom TA02 FRP style double deck chassis (very short, servo will be mounted on top plate over battery in theory.)
Modified TA02 rear anti-sway bar or TA02/TL01 hybrid rear anti-sway bar.
Willy's Wheeler body (Paint colour to still be decided)
Body & battery mounts - still to be determined.
Motor - still to be determined.
Battery Team Orion Carbon Edition 3600mah 7.4V 2 cell LiPo (got to save some weight somewhere)
Aluminium touring car shocks and other preformance parts will follow once basic concept is proven.
Thanks everyone for all the help.
Now does anyone know what the fastest motor I'll get away with in a TA02 chassis ? I would prefer to go brushless if I can or is that out of the question? I'm open to suggestions.
I've order all the parts other than the battery, but they are coming from all over the world so it will be a couple of weeks before I have everything.
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Just think out loud here, but I think I've got it.
The TA02W has normal TA02 arms. It just uses TA01 stub axles and bearing carriers in conjunction with the longer TA02 arms.That's the deal... TA02 and 01 are the same track. The 02 uses shorter axles and narrower steering knuckles and longer driveshafts (all in the front, mind you) to keep the track width the same, but benefit from longer arms. By combing 02 suspension, with 01 steering knuckles and axles, you can add 10 mm to the track width... Hence the 02W.
So, in reverse a 01 with 02 axles and steering knuckles would be 10mm narrower.
So that means the TA01 front suspension arms are about 5mm shorter then the TA02 front suspension arms.
the TA02 front arms are indeed longer than the TL01 front arms.the TA02 front arm sample that I have in front of me measures 33.95mm from inner pin to outer pin.
the TL01 front arm in front of me shows that the same measurement is 28.11mm.
Ok if the TA02 front suspension arms are ~34mm and the TA01 front suspension arms are about 5mm shorter, then that make them about 28-29mm, which means the TA01 front arms are the basically the same lenght as the TL01 Front arms at ~28mm
sorry to kill your fun...the width between both front inner hinge pins on both TL and TA are the same... 41 point something mm, so the U shaped shaft are the same for both series.
I don't have a TL any longer, however I still have an FF02.
Taz,
may I know what kind of project you're thinking of actually? There may be other platforms you can use instead....
So in theory if I use TA01 upper & lower front suspension arms with TL01 steering knuckles on the TA01 front diff. And mount the TL01 rear suspension setup on the TA01 transmission on the rear, I should end up with the same wheel track as the TL01/WR02 chassis which I'm after.
I think this will work, I'm going to need a lot of parts trees, five atleast just for the suspension arms.
Couple more question the WR02 (wild willy 2) rear stub axles are TG10 items correct ? just trying to work out if I need different stub axles for the front and rear for the conversion.
Am I correct in thinking I'll need 39mm dog bones on the front ant 43mm dog bones on the back with this setup or are the rear dog bones on the WR02 39mm items ?
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For all the differences
http://www.tamiyaclub.com/showroom_model.a...83&sid=2193
The Wild Willy2 just uses the complete standard TL-01 touring car suspension, so fitting it you will end up with the same width as using the original TA-02 suspension. Seems like you are using a lot of effort to end up back where you started.
If you want to narrow the suspension then you need mini suspension arms, the minis are about 170mm wide.
Thanks for the link, I could have done with it a day or two ago would have saved me a lot of time running around in circles.
Now i don't want to question your knowledge, as your showroom clear show you a have good work knowledge of a large range of Tamiya cars, but are you sure the TL01 Suspension arms are the same lenght as those of the TA02, I don't have any of the kits I'm trying to peice together otherwise I would have solved this days ago though trial and error, but everything I've seen in the instruction manual for these kits lets me that the TA02 arms are longer than the TL01 arms.
To show what I mean, see the attached image, I realise that not everything on one page of a tamiya manual is in scale with every other part on that page, but all the parts in one section of a page are always in scale to my knowledge, so a quickly scaled the parts trees of the TL01 & hummer (TA02) suspension trees to matching scale.
If you look at the image you can see according to the manuals that the TA02 arms are longer than the TL01 arms, infact the TA02 front arms are the same length as the TL01 rear arms. If I wrong please correct me, if any has a picture of a TL01 front arm next to a TA02 front arm I'd love to see it at this point.
Anyone I tell you what I'm trying to do and maybe that will cut down on the confusion a little.
I'm trying to build a 4WD Willy's Wheeler, after see a couple of Wide Willy 2 to Willy Wheeler conversions, and reading this document Wheeler.doc on how it was done, the idea that they were using 4WD axles & wheels for a 2WD conversion sparked an idea that it could be possible to build a 4WD conversion. I'd seen a few custom setups using TA02 chassis, so I new that was a good place to start, and where I tripped over Hondabiker's customTA02/M03 hybrid chassis I knew I way onto something.
On there way I have a:
- Willy's Wheeler Bodyset
- Voltec Fighter kit for the wheels
There's a TA01 Hummer chassis up on ebay I'll see if can pickup for the transmission and front diff. (Be nice to have black items rather than red).
The TL01 parts I need I'll pick up new, from either a ebay store or tower hobbies, once I work out what I need.
1x B parts
2x C parts
4x dog bones
4x TG10 axles.
I need to grab a full set of bearings too.
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if the WR02 arms are the same as tl01 arms, then it'll fit the 02 after slight hand-fitting.
Cool thanks, I would have had to research that one, no cross reference on the C-parts for the WR-02 parts info, but your right they both use tamiya part code 50737.
Sorry, I mean TA-01.TL-01 front bulkheads have a double length "tab" that the arm hinges on, and TA front arms won't go on, unless you remove material from the chassis.
So what your saying confirms what I was thinking, the TL01 rear suspension arms on the TA02 transmission/Rear diff is no issue, but the mounting tabs on the TA02 front Diff are too short for the TL01 front arms. So I'd need to extend the tabs forwards somehow or add a spacer to hinge pins to take up the slack between the mounting tabs and the lower suspension arms.
Now I really need those chassis measurements, just to confirm that there is no combo of TA02 and TA01 front suspension parts that will give me the required wheel track. There are still wild cards out there like the m1025 Hummer which uses it's own suspension parts tree 0005576 yet it's still a TA01 chassis, the hummer front arms look like they could possibly be what I'm looking for.
Edit:
Had a hard look at the Hummer front suspension arms, they're too long for my needs but because they're similar in design to the TL01 items, there is the possibility of make a hybrid arm keeping one side of the TL01 arm untouched, and make the other side half out of the the TL01 item and half out of the Hummer item, a bit of cutting sum glue and the stock screws to hold it all together.
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The TA02W has normal TA02 arms. It just uses TA01 stub axles and bearing carriers in conjunction with the longer TA02 arms.
That's the deal... TA02 and 01 are the same track. The 02 uses shorter axles and narrower steering knuckles and longer driveshafts (all in the front, mind you) to keep the track width the same, but benefit from longer arms. By combing 02 suspension, with 01 steering knuckles and axles, you can add 10 mm to the track width... Hence the 02W.
So, in reverse a 01 with 02 axles and steering knuckles would be 10mm narrower.
Argh!
So I can make the front narrower, but the back will stay the same. And it still short of my goal which is about 160-165mm wheel track, well atleast I think it is, I'm aiming for the same wheel track as the Wild Willy 2 (WR-02) chassis, wheelbase is not important, I'm tossing the chassis anyway, I'll be making a custom chassis along the lines of carbon fiber FRP chassis for the TA02.
I think now I need more information, If anyone can tell me the distance from axel pin to axel pin on the following chassis it would be great.
WR-02 (Wild Willy 2) most important because this is what I'm aiming for.
TA02
M03
If I'm right the rear suspension aims on the Wild Willy 2 should bolt straight onto the TA02 Transmission & rear diff and give the same rear wheel track, but I believe the WR-02 front lower aims attachment point is wider than than on the TA02 front Diff. so need either go getto and use a spacer, or find a different front suspension arm that will fit the TA02 front diff and will give me the same Wheel track as the WR-02.
any help advice would be great.
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Am I correct in thinking that suspension arms on the TA01 are shorter than those on a TA02 ? i.e. if I put TA01 suspension arms on a TA02 chassis, it will give it a narrower wheel track.
I got a custom project in mind, and the TA02 transmission & diff are perfect for my needs but I need to reduce the wheel track some, I seen it done with M03 suspension parts but that would be too narrow for my needs.
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I looking for a tamiya club member in France or who atleast speaks french and lives in Europe, to help me out.
I've found a web store in France, that lists a hard to find tamiya part I'm after as in stock, only problem is I can't read 90% of the site and google's translation in no help.
So I'm looking for a friendly Tamiya Club member who can help me out in purchasing this item. (I'll of course pay for everything up front, so the risk is all mine).
If you can help let me know,
Thanks
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Nail clippers are king for removing the bits left over from the tree, I tend to you vice grips a fair bit, best you don't ask what for.
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Hello,
I have a new Toyota Hilux on the way. And I think it would look dang nice with some Big Bear tires on it. Is this possible, and if so what do I need to get to pull it off? I already have the tires. So that isn't a problem. Thanks in advance..
Yes, you just need two sets of rear wheels for a Wild Willy 2. Big Bear Tires fit Lunchbox, Midnight Pumpkin, Mad Bull and Wild Willy 2 wheel rims almost perfectly, the tires do overhang the wheel rims alittle, but they do fit and there is no issue running a truck on them. The Wild Willy 2 or Mad Bull rear wheels are your best option as they have standard hexs, and should just bolt on.
I run a Big Bear Tires on my Blackfoot on gold Lunchbox wheels, and I have another set of Big Bear Tires mounted on Mad Bull rear wheels fitted to TLT axles.
If you want a perfect fit then you'll need to track down two sets of Big Bear rear wheel rims, and make adaptor to allow them to fit the Hilux axles, their was a vintage hop up that allowed you to fit Big Bear wheels directly to the Blackfoot but I haven't seen one list on ebay in two or more years, the only other option is to have custom set of wheels made.
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I doing so work on the my Blackfoot, and instead of fitting the standard black sunroof panel, I was thinking it would be cool to have a transparent tinted sunroof instead.
Does anyone know if the sun roof in either Clod Buster or Midnight Punkin windows would be a good match for the blackfoot body ?
I figure they are the best option as the are easily available, so I can afford to cut one up to fit. If not I guess I just need to find a tinted windows from another kit with a larger enough flat pane to cut a sunroof size peice out of.
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Suzuki SJ
Plenty are modded for trails and off roading, the one pictured above holds the record for highest altitude attained by a four-wheeled vehicle.
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My Blackfoot has been a bit of a Shelf Queen (but not as pretty) , but lately I spent some time on it and sorted a few things that need doing and it's almost ready to run, but I've run into a hitch with the motor. I was going to run a Kyosho Magnetic Mayhem in it like I do my Mudblaster, but my blackfoot is fitted with Marui Big Bear tires on Lunchbox rims (much more scale looking), and the wheels don't clear the end bell of the larger 550 can magnetic mayhem. So I'm looking for a motor with good torque in a 540 can no longer than 50mm from back of the end bell to the front of the can (no including bearing housing at shalf end).
The Tamiya Super Stock Motor Type RZ is looking like a good option.
but what do you guys think ?
I know it 55mm long, but I not sure if than includes the bear housing at the shalf end, if anyone has one and can check for me that would be great.
It only rated to 7.2v but I normally run a 8.4v custom hump pack, any idea what will happen to preformace with extra 1.2v ?
(note this blackfoot is anything but stock, it's built to handle a Magnetic mayhem @ 8.4v)
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Interesting point arises here....
You can't therefore use a Hitec servo in the 'stock' class of the Tamiya Cup (ex EuroCup)
Yet more tangential thoughts later...
-Rob
Not sure how strict those rules are, but there is a option available if it must be a tamiya part.
Tamiya part number: 50204 "RC Servo Saver Set - SP1024"
Part 9 on this tree fits Hitec servos.
I'm guessing it would pass as stock, or be so close they wouldn't care.
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I may do the old frog mod but is that not the same as a Brat gearbox anyway? (the original one), can you still buy the original brat gears, as they have a gold bit that goes into the cog that the drive shafts fit into and i cannot find one of them on ebay as i would just do that... if anyone know what i am on about do you know where i can get one or a part number? if i am to use the new frog re re parts can some one point me in the right direction i am pretty sure i have them on ebay but there looks to be full kits and half kits and some sells just selling cogs?... I have loads of original Brat cogs around some of which have never been used?.... (infact i will get a pic of them all to so you guys)
Cheers
oh i have already ordered somw new side plates anyway will strip it down at the weekend
Done correct the oldfrogshot mod doesn't lock the diff, the original brat had a locked diff (or spool) which had a negative effect on it's handling.
The only way your likely to to get the original brass e4 part and the brat 46t spool gear is by getting an original brat wreck off ebay. (the brat e4 part looks a lot like the SP4 parts on the clod buster, but they are not the same.)
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Very cool Thomas,
Makes me wish I hadn't sold my lunchbox.
I'm no expert on the lunchbox but I suggest you fit a shock tower brace like the in the image below:
I'd also suggest using a set of Frog Aluminum Hex adaptors, instead of the stock wheel hubs plus HPI adaptors setup you currently have.
Not sure if it will be relevant to you but on my Grasshopper II (same transmission as Lunchbox), I placed a shim on the left rear axel between the bevel gear & the axel bearing, this remove the excess play from the diff gears and prevent the side to side movement on the rear axels.
Can't wait to see the final result.
do you know where i can get one or a part number? if i am to use the new frog re re parts can some one point me in the right direction i am pretty sure i have them on ebay but there looks to be full kits and half kits and some sells just selling cogs?... I have loads of original Brat cogs around some of which have never been used?.... (infact i will get a pic of them all to so you guys)
4wd Willy's Wheeler Build Thread.
in Vintage Tamiya Discussion
Posted
I'm big fan of Corel, I've owned and used over the years, versions 2,3,4,7,10,11,12, and currently 13. Yeah I did check out the image res, thanks more is always better, I was just thinking of everybody who reads this thread from now on.
MS Paint does two things really well in my book otherwise I'd never touch it, pixel by pixel editing, and has the best compromise between compression ratio and image quality of any image app I've used, It anything but purfect but it has it's uses.
I'll draw the plates in CAD over the next couple of days, so I can play around the design as much as I like
Thanks again.