PH = JIS?

[alvinlwh 5894]

So... Newbies had always been advised to get a set of JIS screwdrivers as normal Philips will damage the Tamiya screws. 

Personally, I had never had a JIS bit and always had been fine using a PH2 for the M3 screws. But PH1 is not so good for the <M3 screws, which I encounter more often with Mini 4WDs. So I ordered a Tamiya No. M screwdriver. 

It arrived today and the notes on it states it is in fact a PH1 and at the same time for use with JIS M2-2.6? Are they in fact the same time and all this while getting a "special" JIS screwdriver is just a waste of time?

[Willy iine 18805]

I'm a fan of Wiha and Wera drivers and they are not JIS.  I file off the tip just a little and they becomes fully JIS and Phillips compatible.. so I've been using that for decades.  

Nothing against owning specific JIS drivers, but I just prefer the handles of Wera and Wiha drivers.  I also use Beta drivers in my garage which are also one of my favorites.  I don't think those are JIS either. 

 

[sosidge 624]

JIS will fit a Phillips screw but not the other way around.

[alvinlwh 5894]

18 minutes ago, sosidge said:

JIS will fit a Phillips screw but not the other way around.

Specs on the card says it is a PH1 bit, to be precise "Bit size: PH1 X 75mm".  If it is a JIS bit that can be used the other way round, it should be labelled JXXX.

[alvinlwh 5894]

31 minutes ago, Willy iine said:

I'm a fan of Wiha and Wera drivers and they are not JIS.  I file off the tip just a little and they becomes fully JIS and Phillips compatible.. so I've been using that for decades.  

Nothing against owning specific JIS drivers, but I just prefer the handles of Wera and Wiha drivers.  I also use Beta drivers in my garage which are also one of my favorites.  I don't think those are JIS either. 

No, probably not. Thing is, whenever a newbie came and ask, they are always told to get a set of Tamiya screwdrivers for the JIS screws. Yet it seems that Tamiya are saying their screwdrivers are just PH screwdrivers? 🤔

[Nwc100 462]

No ideas, but I know I used an old ish PH on my first lunchbox box me it was hard work, I ordered a few Tamiya JIS drivers s,m,l and these are way better, I’d highly recommend using them, although to be fair the PH I had been using is pretty old and quite worn out.

[sosidge 624]

8 minutes ago, alvinlwh said:

Specs on the card says it is a PH1 bit, to be precise "Bit size: PH1 X 75mm".  If it is a JIS bit that can be used the other way round, it should be labelled JXXX.

I think you should contact Tamiya in Japan and let them know they've been mislabeling their screwdrivers all this time.

[El Gecko 1343]

  

53 minutes ago, Willy iine said:

I file off the tip just a little and they becomes fully JIS and Phillips compatible...

Exactly. It's actually trivially easy to make a JIS bit from a Phillips... all it takes is a little targeted filing

[alvinlwh 5894]

27 minutes ago, El Gecko said:

  Exactly. It's actually trivially easy to make a JIS bit from a Phillips... all it takes is a little targeted filing

I had a look deeper into this and it turns out that there is a new JIS that is close to the Philips and do not have the flat tip like the original. It could be the Tamiya screwdrivers are this new standard. 

https://kzrider.com/forum/forum-index/21-tools/615444-jis-vs-phillps-vs-new-jis-screwdrivers

 

[Busdriver 6209]

I have the usual Tamiya tool kit that I believe are JS . I use it all the time apart from the screwdrivers, that I hate. I have an old ratchet driver that can have all sorts of bits in. I use DeWalt PH bits and never have a problem!

[El Gecko 1343]

3 hours ago, alvinlwh said:

I had a look deeper into this and it turns out that there is a new JIS that is close to the Philips and do not have the flat tip like the original. It could be the Tamiya screwdrivers are this new standard. 

https://kzrider.com/forum/forum-index/21-tools/615444-jis-vs-phillps-vs-new-jis-screwdrivers

 

Interesting, I'm not sure why they would bother  As @sosidge said, a normal JIS screwdriver already fits a Phillips screw just fine. It's the Phillips driver that's the problem.

[alvinlwh 5894]

2 hours ago, Busdriver said:

I have the usual Tamiya tool kit that I believe are JS . I use it all the time apart from the screwdrivers, that I hate. I have an old ratchet driver that can have all sorts of bits in. I use DeWalt PH bits and never have a problem!

I normally have no problem with the M3s but have problems with the smaller ones. Also, recently trying to remove a rusted on screw pin got it torqued out a few times and destroying the screw in the process (although still managed to get it off). 

[Willy iine 18805]

Before buying all sorts of new drivers try just filing off the tips of your existing Phillips head screw drivers.  Chances are, that will work just fine.  

[alvinlwh 5894]

30 minutes ago, Willy iine said:

Before buying all sorts of new drivers try just filing off the tips of your existing Phillips head screw drivers.  Chances are, that will work just fine.  

Thanks, I learn something new here everyday. 

[BuggyDad 4446]

For me the difference was very marked on moving from my old PH ones to a JIS compatible set. NB the JIS compatible set are still PH as well, which I guess defines cross section at the point of engagement. JIS ones have faces in line (or nearly in line) with the Screwdriver shaft, so perpendicular to force, being designed to stay in place, while non-JIS PH screwdrivers are made at a slight angle so that without downward pressure they want to pop out with torque, if that makes sense. 

If I read it correctly then, filing off the end will help if they're too pointed, and quite probably makes them perfectly workable, but they may still have a greater propensity to jump than genuine JIS ones. But then you might have to be incredibly picky to notice... 

[Willy iine 18805]

@BuggyDad I think it's just a matter of how accurately one can file off the tip perpendicularly.  My modified Phillips drivers do not jump JIS screw heads at all.  

[SlideWRX 785]

I don't think it is officially a 'new' JIS; that standards body ceased operations, so there isn't anyone certifying JIS anymore.  on the other side, a lot of companies are tweaking their phillips head to cam-out less.  I went down that rabbit hole a few months ago, and I think there are over a dozen different designs out there that technically fit a phillips head or JIS head these days, with varying amounts of cam-out, grippy textures and such to prevent issues.

[El Gecko 1343]

The key is that the inner angles are nearly 90 degrees on a JIS bit, but gusseted or filled on Phillips to aid with cam-out.

So sharpening up those angles to be closer to 90 will make a big difference. In addition to cutting the tip and re-angling the blades.

 

[alvinlwh 5894]

2 hours ago, El Gecko said:

The key is that the inner angles are nearly 90 degrees on a JIS bit, but gusseted or filled on Phillips to aid with cam-out.

So sharpening up those angles to be closer to 90 will make a big difference. In addition to cutting the tip and re-angling the blades.

 

What you are showing is the new JIS standard which have a pointed tip, though less "sharp" than a PH is still there. The original JIS is completely flat (pictured further up the thread) while the new one is like the love child of an original JIS and a PH.. 

But my whole point of starting this thread was (which everyone seem to miss) Tamiya is now selling PH as suitable for JIS, not about how to convert PH to JIS. 

[El Gecko 1343]

20 minutes ago, alvinlwh said:

Tamiya is now selling PH as suitable for JIS

They aren't, though. PH1 is a size, like wire gauge, it determines the base diameter of the point of the bit. Phillips and JIS use the same "gauge" size, so Tamiya has it listed here because otherwise it's just a number for JIS (notice the + in a circle next to that value in the Japanese language above--that's the tool size, nothing to do with what type of bit it is). They've listed it as a PH1 for English-speakers who are generally more familiar with Phillips, but they could have just as easily listed it exactly like the Japanese.

So this driver in the very first pic is a PH1 or JIS #1 size, with a JIS-compatible configuration of the blades (90 degree inner corners, I assume).

[alvinlwh 5894]

9 minutes ago, El Gecko said:

So this driver in the very first pic is a PH1 or JIS #1 size, with a JIS-compatible configuration of the blades (90 degree inner corners, I assume).

I will break out my macro lens to take some pictures. Visually, it is closer to the new JIS or Philips but I have no means of measuring angles of something this small. Even macro pictures will be a challenge. 

I will upload some if I successfully taken some. 

EDIT: visually, it has the double angle of a Philips not the radius chamfer of a JIS. Meaning can see 3 lines in the inner corner. 

[Willy iine 18805]

3 hours ago, El Gecko said:

The key is that the inner angles are nearly 90 degrees on a JIS bit, but gusseted or filled on Phillips to aid with cam-out.

So sharpening up those angles to be closer to 90 will make a big difference. In addition to cutting the tip and re-angling the blades.

 

I should’ve mentioned I sharpen the cross too.  It’s pretty self explanatory as one can test the tip on a screw head as they file to get the best shape.  

[alvinlwh 5894]

@El Gecko and etc. Got the macro shots. Hopefully it will clear up if I got a JIS or Philips from Tamiya. 

It seems to me that in the last 2 pictures that there is the double "face" cam-out on the inside corner like a Phillips instead of the radius or 90 degrees of a JIS. 

[Willy iine 18805]

My iPhone picture, but I can tell you that my + is a lot sharper..

This is my Wiha PH1 with the filed tip.. used many years so not the cleanest but you get the idea.  

Here is my Wiha PH0 with filed tip.  

Basically I just use these 2 drivers for Tamiya kits along with a PH1 Wera bit (tip also filed and sharpened) on a Wera ratchet driver handle.   No slip. 

[Kol__ 3377]

On 11/8/2021 at 1:38 PM, alvinlwh said:

Personally, I had never had a JIS bit and always had been fine using a PH2 for the M3 screws

+1 about that mate, PH2 seems to work fine. I will be picking up a JIS at some point, so will be able to compare then