Trouble with a BL motor

[BuggyDad 4476]

7 minutes ago, alvinlwh said:

@BuggyDad

@M 800STD

Further update, adjusted the sensor to (max?) +10 timing and wires connected correctly, it runs fine now and definitely is more powerful than the default setting.

Thanks again, so this is not a "can't help/tell what's wrong without seeing and feeling it in person" type of problem after all! 

I haven't tried adjusting the timing on mine. I'll give it a go. On their MMM series ones, the adjustment doesn't go down to zero. I think it starts at 11, kind of reverse Spinal Tap. 

[alvinlwh 5895]

3 minutes ago, BuggyDad said:

I haven't tried adjusting the timing on mine. I'll give it a go. On their MMM series ones, the adjustment doesn't go down to zero. I think it starts at 11, kind of reverse Spinal Tap. 

Yes, I notice that as well, but I think the principle for the MMM is still the same, slide the sensor board across as far as it can go type IIRC. So it is non precise and even if you somehow can measure and move it accurately (impossible), you will probably shift it slightly when putting it back together. 

[M 800STD 586]

Just google speed passion SP000007, as some vendors still have them.  Lowest price I've seen Euro 6.00, without shipping.

Give MB Models a call to confirm if this is compatible, as they have stock.  SP000008

If so then google it for best price.

[alvinlwh 5895]

9 minutes ago, M 800STD said:

Just google speed passion SP000007, as some vendors still have them.  Lowest price I've seen Euro 6.00, without shipping.

Give MB Models a call to confirm if this is compatible, as they have stock.  SP000008

If so then google it for best price.

My Google cannot find any SP00007 but found a UK supplier of SP000008. Problem is SP had gone out of business I think? Their website is dead as well. So the Bluetooth connector will not work as there is nowhere to download the app. 

[BuggyDad 4476]

SP has gone out of business? Is that why their motors are so cheap?

Or perhaps the cause and effect is other other way around? 

[alvinlwh 5895]

29 minutes ago, BuggyDad said:

SP has gone out of business? Is that why their motors are so cheap?

Or perhaps the cause and effect is other other way around? 

Since 2017, if not earlier. I had seen people with problems as far back as 2011.

 

[BuggyDad 4476]

22 minutes ago, alvinlwh said:

Since 2017, if not earlier. I had seen people with problems as far back as 2011.

 

Shame. I guess that's why there are some cheap motors but limited range. Interesting they're in the shops as much as they are, 4+ years after stopping trading. 

[M 800STD 586]

https://www.orangutan-rc.com/products/sp000007-speed-passion-reventon-series-smart-led-program-card

https://www.pdmweb.it/elettronica-cavetteria/program-card-reventon-(prezzo-sotto-costo-fino-ad-esaurimento-scorte)-sp11645

https://www.framega.com/products/speedpassion-sp000056-smart-lcd-program-card-reventon

 

[alvinlwh 5895]

14 minutes ago, M 800STD said:

https://www.orangutan-rc.com/products/sp000007-speed-passion-reventon-series-smart-led-program-card

https://www.pdmweb.it/elettronica-cavetteria/program-card-reventon-(prezzo-sotto-costo-fino-ad-esaurimento-scorte)-sp11645

https://www.framega.com/products/speedpassion-sp000056-smart-lcd-program-card-reventon

 

Thanks, think will go for the Malaysia one, will get my in law's to order for me. 

The Italian one does not seem to send to the UK. 

The price for the last one, I am better off buying a new ESC. 

[M 800STD 586]

Sure, just showing you what I found.

[alvinlwh 5895]

4 minutes ago, M 800STD said:

Sure, just showing you what I found.

My Google didn't turn up any useful results, I think it got something to do with cookies, search history or something. 

[alvinlwh 5895]

On 1/22/2022 at 11:24 PM, M 800STD said:

https://www.orangutan-rc.com/products/sp000007-speed-passion-reventon-series-smart-led-program-card

Thanks again for this. Brother in law had picked up two ("oh they only have two left in stock so I bought them all for you incase you need more" 🙄) for me in store. Turns out that they are at the next town to him. 

[alvinlwh 5895]

On 1/22/2022 at 8:32 PM, BuggyDad said:

I've picked up a new 5.5t Speed Passion, a lightly used 17.5t Speed Passion and some heavily used 7.5t thing each for £25 or under. And the SP 10.5t ones are only about £35 I think. I don't think it has to be expensive. 

If you are still into bargain SP motors with stupid speed, I just ordered this one today. 8000kv for £19.99, not bad I think. 

https://www.modelsport.co.uk/product/speed-passion-110-competition-mmm-series-45r-bl-motor-407412

 

[hIghQ 149]

A 4.5T BL motor... boy, are you in for a surprise. What car do you plan using this in? 4.5T is serious power and could probably shred most non TRF Tamiya drivetrains into pieces...

[BuggyDad 4476]

Aye, mine is a 5.5t version of the same. It's currently sitting in the spares box. It's fun but I think the car is a little better with a 7.5. I guess if I got a few things a bit more right with handling and gearing it would be great but as things are a slower motor works better for my use. I don't need a 4.5 off road! 

[alvinlwh 5895]

50 minutes ago, hIghQ said:

A 4.5T BL motor... boy, are you in for a surprise. What car do you plan using this in? 4.5T is serious power and could probably shred most non TRF Tamiya drivetrains into pieces...

That will be a good thing after the disappointment of the 17.5T. I haven't got a planned chassis to put it in yet, but will definitely not be a Tamiya although after hearing what you said, I might put it into a TT01 that had exploded a few times for a laugh. 

[alvinlwh 5895]

20 minutes ago, BuggyDad said:

Aye, mine is a 5.5t version of the same. 

And your 5.5T did OK in your DT-03? Didnot shred it?

[hIghQ 149]

23 minutes ago, alvinlwh said:

That will be a good thing after the disappointment of the 17.5T.

Let me guess, despite everything you've been told earlier, you just took a brushed motor out of a car (that was probably designed with only brushed motors in mind, so likely doesn't offer the necessary effective gearing range for a BL system), simply dropped in some random brushless motor and found it slower? Not really surprising, as brushless motors with comparable turns usually have lower RPM numbers than brushed. But they do have more torque.  A lot more. And that's where gearing comes into play. If you don't adjust that sufficiently (i.e. not just by some decimals of the FDR, but major adjustments) you'll end up with a slower car. And we haven't even started talking about dynamic timing at this point, which in itself will unlock so much power and RPM on a BL system, that upon activation, it will feel like the car has shifted into a higher gear. But you actually need to do all that to get a BL system to really shine, which I bet you didn't.

[BuggyDad 4476]

58 minutes ago, alvinlwh said:

And your 5.5T did OK in your DT-03? Didnot shred it?

Haven't tried it in the DT-03, only in my B64. DT-03 gears are meant to be quite strong though. The reason I haven't tried it in the DT-03 isn't this, it's more because I think it'd probably be undriveable - just wouldn't keep its front wheels on the ground. I could give it a go, with more weights and reducing initial punch through the tx. And a big stretch of tarmac. Hmm. There's a thought... 

[alvinlwh 5895]

20 minutes ago, hIghQ said:

Let me guess, despite everything you've been told earlier, you just took a brushed motor out of a car (that was probably designed with only brushed motors in mind, so likely doesn't offer the necessary effective gearing range for a BL system), simply dropped in some random brushless motor and found it slower? Not really surprising, as brushless motors with comparable turns usually have lower RPM numbers than brushed. But they do have more torque.  A lot more. And that's where gearing comes into play. If you don't adjust that sufficiently (i.e. not just by some decimals of the FDR, but major adjustments) you'll end up with a slower car. And we haven't even started talking about dynamic timing at this point, which in itself will unlock so much power and RPM on a BL system, that upon activation, it will feel like the car has shifted into a higher gear. But you actually need to do all that to get a BL system to really shine, which I bet you didn't.

What I was told earlier that a 17.5T "can easily" beat any Super Stock. No mention of any major adjustments, which no longer fit the definition of "easily". So you bet right as I was never told these things before hand. 

[hIghQ 149]

I remember telling you myself. Especially about the gearing...

[alvinlwh 5895]

26 minutes ago, hIghQ said:

I remember telling you myself. Especially about the gearing...

In that case you will remember that the TBLE that I am using for the 17.5T on has no timing, boost or turbo settings at all. And you will probably also remember yourself saying Tamiya does not have that much gearing option to maximise the usefulness of a BL. So like for like, in blinky mode (something new about BL I had learnt since), a 17.5T is no match for a RZ. 

So I had since moved on from Tamiya and getting cars with indefinitely adjustable pinion and spur options to get some useful gearing. Since a 4.5T is going cheap, I will be able to set up some useful FDR to see how good they are. 

[Jonathon Gillham 4607]

12 hours ago, hIghQ said:

I remember telling you myself. Especially about the gearing...

Yep. I was the one who said the 17.5T will easily beat a SS motor, and gave the comparison. SS properly geared in a Top Force against a 17.5T (surpass V4S 17.5T, so no slouch) properly geared in a HB D418 in blinky mode. Cant get much fairer than that, both 4wd, the HB has a more efficient drivetrain but does have a centre diff which will sap some power. The HB destroys the Top Force in a straight line. I also always refer to properly geared. But there have been many accusations levelled about that. 

[hIghQ 149]

@alvinlwh

Just went for the first post from me that I could find on the matter (from October 17th):

Quote

Brushless motors usually have quite a bit more torque, but less RPM compared to similar winds on brushed motors, so they can (and should) be geared longer. Also they are usually more efficient and basically maintenance free. But where BL systems really shine is, when you use ESCs with variable timing (i.e. boost/turbo settings instead of the 0-Boost/"blinky" mode only). These ESCs are of course more expensive than the basic "blinky" only models, however all that goodness requires a sensored system.

I'm sure both me and others posted more on this very subject here on TC within the last months, even that the required gearing changes can be rather large.

But you seem to be so stuck in your own ways and already so biased against brushless, it sometimes seems like you're just hoping and waiting for BL to fail on you.

So yes, a good BL motor, properly set up is in fact really vastly superior to a brushed motor. However it's not a simple "drop in and start driving" thing (as was mentioned several times here on TC), but if you never really read all that, then yes, disappointment in the BL's performance is pretty much guaranteed. As I may have mentioned once or twice before , I am an active racer, and I do race both in stock and in open modified classes as well. But I do not own a 4.5T motor (or lower) any more - for a reason. It's just too much power for me. I do own (and run) 5.5T and 6.5T, and yes those 1-2 turns indeed make a noticeable difference.

As an example for how quick a 17.5T can be, watch this:

(By the way, in the this class in the ETS racing series, people are restricted to handout, fixed-endbell-timing motors (not even a top of the line model), the ESC are zero-timing (="blinky") and even have an RPM limiter, and lastly, the FDR is also limited. So this is by no means the maximum you can get out of a 17.5T BL, but it's not slow or disappointing in my eyes...

[alvinlwh 5895]

I don't know why you two are so defensive, I never named either of you for making that statement, and truth be told, I cannot remember and it could be neither of you and it could very well be some other fanboy that said it in another forum or offline. What I definitely remember is when I complained to one such offline fanboy about how slow a 17.5T is when I first got it, he said a 17.5T is just a silver can replacement and will be slow. 

There were all kinds of statements made, many conflicting each other, even if I read them all, which one is true? Yours more true than someone else's? How can I tell? I do not want it it fail, I am just disappointed at how much money and effort is required to make it work. It was often said that BL are "affordable", so I came across a cheap system on sale, I bought it believing what one such fanboy said. Then it turns out that I need to adjust its timing, turbo or whatnot. Then in order to do it, I need to buy a program card, which is mostly gone worldwide. Still, I managed to get some from a shop on the other side of the world. Then it turns out that the firmware for that ESC no longer exists and I will never get reverse for that ESC so I have to buy another ESC to make it work. I cannot use the TBLE as its BEC is useless and in order to use it, I need to buy a UBEC to make it useful. Perhaps it is just me, but there had been never ending problems to get a BL to work while with a brushed, I just get a 1060 and it just works. 

If I had wanted it to fail, I would not have gone on and spent more to buy another two more systems, one Orion Vortex dDrive and this 4.5T to try, after the disappointment of the 17.5T. 

I definitely did remember the statement from one of you that Tamiya's gearing options are limited which is why I had now gone on to other makes which allow indefinitely adjustable spur and pinion combos. 

I really I don't know how fast or slow are they going in your video, since I had said before, I don't race, so I don't drive like that at all. Plus if they are all 17.5Ts, then there is nothing to compare them against. However, some direct comparable videos I found seem to show that, like for like, a 15.5T will not beat a RZ.