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Saito2

Why the distain for full vintage experience?

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The major advantage of LiPo to me is not only the higher output power, but the ability to chose where I want to weight down the car using weights (1:1 wheel weights) since the gross weight is significantly lower.. I have more allowance to play with weights.

But I've never considered running LiPo on my vintage cars.  I just want my models to drive normally running factory motors (in many cases just silver cans) and NiCd/NiMh batteries.

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Vintage used to be the only experience.  That’s the majority I own. 2 cars from new but now vintage. All the others second hand rebuilds.  Some have 3 speed mechanical controllers, some electronic with the hotter motors and a couple with brushless lipo just for the badword of it.   As a kid of 14, didn’t know any different. I soldered on the bec plug to remove the extra weight of the 4 receiver batteries.  I had one receiver between a grasshopper and 3 boats.  Now I’m almost 50.  I buy vintage as it’s what I know, with the added experience of a time served toolmaker now almost retired.  How time flies 😳

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Apart from glitchy AM radios I really don't dislike anything vintage, it's lovely. But some stuff you just can't recreate nowadays no matter how hard you try. There are no decent nicads (and when I say decent I mean really durable cells like Sanyo SCR and SCRC's) to be found that gives similar perfomance and longevity there used to be, it just won't happen. For me personally, NiMh's isn't an option, might as well run lipos. 

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4 hours ago, pUs said:

Apart from glitchy AM radios I really don't dislike anything vintage, it's lovely. But some stuff you just can't recreate nowadays no matter how hard you try. There are no decent nicads (and when I say decent I mean really durable cells like Sanyo SCR and SCRC's) to be found that gives similar perfomance and longevity there used to be, it just won't happen. For me personally, NiMh's isn't an option, might as well run lipos. 

Do you get rashes or something?  :lol: ;) jk.  I've never heard of such thing.  If one's okay with NiCd, most folks are usually also okay with NiMH, so.  I mean it's entirely up to you, I'm not here to judge.

I run both NiCd and NiMH on my vintage cars, LiPo on modern chassis when I do run them. 

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I regret nothing moving ALL my machines to brushless and lipo where ever possible (some RTR systems that cost too much to convert, or have no brushless equivalent haven't been changed) but yep, my 2010 p34 rere, and my Sand Scorcher rere, and my OG blackfoot are all using lipos and brushless, for the same reasons.  i can have complete control over the throttle curve (forward and reverse), i can have "perfect" "glitchless" throttle control, and i can pop a battery into the model whenever i want, and run for 3 or 4 times the "normal" runtime, and never have to worry about a dead battery, or spending an hour charging the battery before i run the car.

I could care less if my "driving experience" is the same as it was in 1980.  i am doing this for fun, not the vintage experience.

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When I first started running Li-Po in my Astute runners 10 years ago, I could not believe how it transformed the car.  Even the 540 silver can on the vintage runner just lit up and the dynamics of steering, suspension and especially jumps was completely different and I could clear the double.  Astute with a 2S battery was just a completely different animal.  One TC member here was shocked at how fast and nimble the 540 Astute was and questioned if it was really a stock 540.

Even better than performance though was the reduced breakages on impact or bad landings.... I've actually only broken one steering link and no broken bulkheads or suspension arm mounts on 2S and I'm convinced that the lighter weight is a contributing factor !

 

  

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9 hours ago, Willy iine said:

Do you get rashes or something?  :lol: ;) jk.  I've never heard of such thing.  If one's okay with NiCd, most folks are usually also okay with NiMH, so.  I mean it's entirely up to you, I'm not here to judge.

I run both NiCd and NiMH on my vintage cars, LiPo on modern chassis when I do run them. 

No rashes :) My main issue is that from my experience they're generally a bit fragile, like to be treated in a certain way and depending on type prefers cell-by-cell equalizing to stay fresh. Early NiMh's that I raced at the end of 99-early 00 were not as bad, but for occasional running and then storing them for 12 months or so they just deteriorated in a very predictable fashion. 

For me, NiMhs feels too new and a bit too revolutionary to me to be considered vintage, even though it's now over 20 years ago. They were quite big news when they arrived - I raced both buggies and 12th scale in 1999 and the way they changed 6-cell 1:12 was just unbelievable, the sheer speed with hot winds and still making 8 minutes with ease :) it's one of my fondest racing memories from this time even thought it lasted a very short period. We switched to 4-cell shortly afterwards and then everything went back to normal :/ The only thing vintage with NiMhs to me is the concept of soldering loose cells together and the ability to measure and match them. That part is of course as vintage as it can get.. ;)

If you or anybody else know a good source of high quality loose NiMh cells I wouldn't rule out trying a few sets.

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5 hours ago, pUs said:

No rashes :) My main issue is that from my experience they're generally a bit fragile, like to be treated in a certain way and depending on type prefers cell-by-cell equalizing to stay fresh. Early NiMh's that I raced at the end of 99-early 00 were not as bad, but for occasional running and then storing them for 12 months or so they just deteriorated in a very predictable fashion. 

For me, NiMhs feels too new and a bit too revolutionary to me to be considered vintage, even though it's now over 20 years ago. They were quite big news when they arrived - I raced both buggies and 12th scale in 1999 and the way they changed 6-cell 1:12 was just unbelievable, the sheer speed with hot winds and still making 8 minutes with ease :) it's one of my fondest racing memories from this time even thought it lasted a very short period. We switched to 4-cell shortly afterwards and then everything went back to normal :/ The only thing vintage with NiMhs to me is the concept of soldering loose cells together and the ability to measure and match them. That part is of course as vintage as it can get.. ;)

If you or anybody else know a good source of high quality loose NiMh cells I wouldn't rule out trying a few sets.

Yeah, when I raced in the 90’s I was still running NiCd’s I assembled and the industry was just about to make the switch to NiMH when I took my second hiatus.   So never really got a chance to build my packs for racing. 

These days I just buy NiMH sub-c on Amazon to make humpbacks for my M38 for the convenience of higher capacity and not having to deal with memory.  These are not matched like racing cells we bought back in the 90’s, but for running my vintage cars, they do just fine. 

IMG_Mar232021at53447PM.jpg.d3f370f1de7d393285d1d6349e9064e3.jpg

I still have my Trinity discharge trays so I can balance the cells as needed.   Just not critical enough since I’m not racing with my vintage cars.  I only drive them gently as moving display models. 

I also own a couple of Tamiya NiCd humpbacks too which still holds a decent charge!  I keep those for display.  :D

 

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Remember that the first ESCs started becoming available in the late 70s/early 80s, so the idea of an ESC in a vintage model isn't necessarily inappropriate. True, today's ESCs are smaller, lighter, more reliable and typically capable of more functions than their predecessors, but I would equate this to putting a modern compact electric fuel pump in a classic that originally came with a bulkier, less advanced electric fuel pump as an option, rather than, say, swapping a carb for a fuel injection setup. A modern version of period tech, rather than different tech entirely.

As always, just my view, please don't hound me from the forum if you disagree.

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2 hours ago, TurnipJF said:

Remember that the first ESCs started becoming available in the late 70s/early 80s, so the idea of an ESC in a vintage model isn't necessarily inappropriate. True, today's ESCs are smaller, lighter, more reliable and typically capable of more functions than their predecessors, but I would equate this to putting a modern compact electric fuel pump in a classic that originally came with a bulkier, less advanced electric fuel pump as an option, rather than, say, swapping a carb for a fuel injection setup. A modern version of period tech, rather than different tech entirely.

As always, just my view, please don't hound me from the forum if you disagree.

Comparison is an interesting exercise. In HO slot cars for example, it seems we've had our "lipo/brushless moment" but it came years ago when someone figured out how to use magnets for additional traction.

Ever since then, there have been essentially two ways to race--all the modern, magnet car classes, usually run at 18V, and on the other side you have cars whose magnetic attraction is deliberately limited (gravity cars), some driven at 12V to slow them down. In some cases the gravity chassis are the same ones from the 1960s, because they offer a "driving experience" you can't get with either a magnet car or a newer "gravity" car. The idea is, we want to see the car drifting and sliding, and magnet cars offer none of that--just bonkers speed, where keeping the car on the track is really only dependent on reaction time. The 1960s (and '60s style re-res) are still notoriously difficult to work on, but that's part of the challenge, and they're still immensely popular. The nice thing is that various manufacturers have stepped up to fill the voids whenever any one of them goes down, so parts have been fairly easy to get, and almost always backwards compatible.

What I find puzzling is the RC world's general resistance to vintage vehicles and/or tech. It seems like this may be changing a bit these days, as more people get back into it for nostalgia, but overall even amongst those who run vintage and vintage-style re-res, there is a general consensus that brushless/lipo is the only way and anything else is a compromise, or inferior. I don't understand how a vintage race series can allow lipos and brushless motors to be used. That's like putting magnets in a gravity car, it changes everything.

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@El Gecko  I'm totally fine running brushed and brushless, NiCd, NiMH, LiPo.  They have their place.  I don't think running old tech makes them inferior at all.  However, glitching radio is a huge risk for restored bodies so I stay away from those unless for display.  :D

 

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On 2/24/2022 at 12:48 AM, El Gecko said:

Comparison is an interesting exercise. In HO slot cars for example, it seems we've had our "lipo/brushless moment" but it came years ago when someone figured out how to use magnets for additional traction.

Ever since then, there have been essentially two ways to race--all the modern, magnet car classes, usually run at 18V, and on the other side you have cars whose magnetic attraction is deliberately limited (gravity cars), some driven at 12V to slow them down. In some cases the gravity chassis are the same ones from the 1960s, because they offer a "driving experience" you can't get with either a magnet car or a newer "gravity" car. The idea is, we want to see the car drifting and sliding, and magnet cars offer none of that--just bonkers speed, where keeping the car on the track is really only dependent on reaction time. The 1960s (and '60s style re-res) are still notoriously difficult to work on, but that's part of the challenge, and they're still immensely popular. The nice thing is that various manufacturers have stepped up to fill the voids whenever any one of them goes down, so parts have been fairly easy to get, and almost always backwards compatible.

What I find puzzling is the RC world's general resistance to vintage vehicles and/or tech. It seems like this may be changing a bit these days, as more people get back into it for nostalgia, but overall even amongst those who run vintage and vintage-style re-res, there is a general consensus that brushless/lipo is the only way and anything else is a compromise, or inferior. I don't understand how a vintage race series can allow lipos and brushless motors to be used. That's like putting magnets in a gravity car, it changes everything.

Off topic, but I'm still awfully fond of the old AFX chassis's with the motor mounted/running along the x axis (T-Jet?) rather than the later chassis with the motors running axially along the length of the car.

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I had an interesting thought the other day that ties into this discussion: if you look at the parts trees for some of the re-re models, all the plastic parts are still there to mount a mechanical speed control. All you would need is the speed control itself, the resistor, some extra bits of hardware, and another servo, and you can party like it's 1985.

All of my re-res are running ESCs at the moment, but I do have an unbuilt Grasshopper kit sitting on the shelf. If I can get my hands on an old Tamiya MSC without robbing one from one of my vintage cars, I might give it a try. MSC, RS380 motor, separate receiver pack... and 2.4ghz radio.

Why, you may ask? Why not?

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I am one of those who still prefer MSC over ESC on my vintage SRB.

Here is my custom built FORD F150 Ranger XLT with custom built MSC.

rpwSSMW.jpg

TWsHjn1.jpg

75cpJoX.jpg

0krJFzw.jpg

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@yellowcat That's an interesting MSC..  how variable is it (how many steps?)? 

If one's going for custom setups like yours, there is appeal to that as it is a special setup.  

 

But I think if we're just talking straight out of the box factory stock vintage setups that mostly use 3 step forward/reverse MSC, it's hardly 'good' besides for nostalgic reasons.  Not that there's anything wrong with enjoying the good ol' times, I just can't drive the car in small space as modulation is horrible and resistors burn up potentially melting things.

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1 hour ago, Willy iine said:

@yellowcat That's an interesting MSC..  how variable is it (how many steps?)? 

If one's going for custom setups like yours, there is appeal to that as it is a special setup.  

 

But I think if we're just talking straight out of the box factory stock vintage setups that mostly use 3 step forward/reverse MSC, it's hardly 'good' besides for nostalgic reasons.  Not that there's anything wrong with enjoying the good ol' times, I just can't drive the car in small space as modulation is horrible and resistors burn up potentially melting things.

Tamiya also has the variable speed MSC.

8WykhyX.jpg

 

Back in the '80s before the ESC arrived we all custom built and raced with MSC.

Here is a picture of a SRB displayed at the Ranch Pit Shop in Pomona, California.

rgcPYri.jpg

U89wYEU.jpg

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Not all (everyone), @yellowcat!  I was a kid back then, no money, and only had a 3step MSC and raced.  :D  

So I am guessing it's infinitely variable? Just analog.  I like analog.  But the resistors probably still get too hot for driving in small space.

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That's the style of speed control that came with the early Associated and Bolink cars, too. Not quite infinitely variable, but way more so than the 3 step Tamiya or Kyosho ones. They typically didn't have reverse either, and the brakes were on/off. Worked OK for what they were, but yeah, they did get hot.

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2 hours ago, markbt73 said:

That's the style of speed control that came with the early Associated and Bolink cars, too. Not quite infinitely variable, but way more so than the 3 step Tamiya or Kyosho ones. They typically didn't have reverse either, and the brakes were on/off. Worked OK for what they were, but yeah, they did get hot.

The early BoLink and Associated resistors are single barrel. They have brakes and the micro switch is for reverse.

Picture showing the Bolink, Associated single barrel resistor and different type of wiper arms.

RQQO0Pm.jpg

 

This is how the MSC function.

Uf0BnVG.jpg

fZuAr1g.jpg

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I know ESCs are a great move forward in RC history and the vast majority of my fleet use them, but those MSCs are so dang cool! I guess I just really dig the movements of mechanisms and seeing all that vs having everything tucked away in a little box of circuitry. Even if you understand the principles at play in an ESC, you can't "see" them at work like an MSC. I'll crawl back under my rock now. Please don't throw your old MSCs at me in frustration with my interest in old tech. They hurt....On second thought, throw them. I'll take 'em! 

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I don't think there's an actual disdain, but reality is that it makes them a lot better. Sure, for shelf queens, but not for drivers.

You may have found yourself doing full restorations, but you have to remember that within the 1:1 car scene, resto-mods are bigger than ever. This is for the exact same reason people swap LS and other engines into old cars. They want something that looks like the original, but with much better performance. If this was not the case, the whole scene would look totally different. In other words, it's just in RC as it is in the 1:1 game.

 

I have a 1961 Ferrari 250 GTE which is totally restored to original, and while that is all fine and dandy, it does present some challenges as a driven car. Had it been a car with less value and rarity, I could most certainly understand why one would run a modern engine and gearbox in it. I have actually had power steering added to mine, and that's nothing but a big plus. And like with our RC cars, it is 100% reversible.

 

Let me put it in another way. If it was not as easy as it is to run a modern ESC and radio setup, fewer would do it. I have some of the old gear sitting around in case I want to return to stock, and this also means that I get less wear on it. I would love to run more Technigold motors, but why? It's just wearing out parts you can't get anymore. I can run a modern Tamiya motor that still looks good and feels right, and I can rebuild that for next to nothing. And if it breaks, I'll get a new one. If you had to drill, cut and make other changes, you would not see people do what they do. Can you imagine cutting up your original Egress to fit a modern motor? Neither can I. That's why we do it, because we can without any worry.

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On 3/5/2022 at 7:50 PM, yellowcat said:

I am one of those who still prefer MSC over ESC on my vintage SRB.

Here is my custom built FORD F150 Ranger XLT with custom built MSC.

rpwSSMW.jpg

TWsHjn1.jpg

75cpJoX.jpg

0krJFzw.jpg

Completely agree @yellowcat

Did you machine the parts yourself ? If so, do you accept commissions ?! 

I’ve not seen similar in the UK for a v long time indeed !

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On 1/23/2022 at 11:11 AM, Willy iine said:

I do not trust this thing.. 

IMG_Sep82021at52322PM.jpg.aab7fc5d70599ce3eb634fd6ac94e66a.jpg

I have been tempted to get one of these and retrofit the “guts” of a Flysky or a cheap RTR 2.4 system into the body. 
Am I the only one ? 

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On 3/6/2022 at 12:03 AM, yellowcat said:

The early BoLink and Associated resistors are single barrel. They have brakes and the micro switch is for reverse.

Picture showing the Bolink, Associated single barrel resistor and different type of wiper arms.

RQQO0Pm.jpg

These are the only type of MSCs I used to run BITD. 3 speed fwd/1 rev kit speed controls were scrapped for either one of these or an esc. I think the only kit provided MSC I ever ran was in a Kyosho Hi Rider and it too was replaced with a single barrel type. 

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@Saito2 

I think it depends on the person and the tastes.  For me, I'm building my kits as period as I can, but to be fair, mechanical speed controllers were not much fun but that said, the Tamiya unit in the Grasshopper Hornet era etc, I had as a kid and liked very much I had no issue with it, once in a while it would move past the contact point and I'd have to adjust but that's it.

When I bought my RC10 in 91, there was just no way I was going to mount that box speed control on the rear bulkhead, it was widely accepted at the time that was a POS.  

So to me, I wish I could find mint NOVAKs and TEKINs from the early 90s.  That was what I grew up with.   I still run my Futaba MC112B in one of my cars.

For the 81 kit I'm building now, I chose to skip the mechanical speed controller for a few reasons. But I'm sticking with NMHI batteries, and trying to keep it as much original.   But with TXs, the lot of mint and NOS Futabas on ebay has kind of run its course.  I prefer my vintage TXs, they are easy to use, and feel good in the hand.

Depends on who you talk to,  I'm not into LIPO yet and don't anticipate making the switch or hassle.   I'm 47.   When I take my BRAT out, I don't need to drive it for 75 minutes.   After about 30 minutes, I'm good.

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