Why the distain for full vintage experience?

[jeekelemental 528]

To me is a "spirit" matter, more the time flows and more I try to upgrade my cars like I'm back in the 90s. Sometimes I use "modern" parts (as 3D printed ones) but only if the complete car keep up the golden era spirit.
I do not use brushless or lipos, but I use modern radios.
I do not use cheap brushed motors, I prefer refurbished classic brushed ones.
I avoid as much as possible cheap chinese made aluminum parts, I love to build out of scratch small parts in aluminum or fiberglass.
Everything that keeps the spirit of the cars I was used to see on the magazines when I was a young gun is welcome.

[Mad Ax 9329]

Most of my vintage cars are made for running, and generally I run most at vintage race meets, so I need something reliable and competitive.  The vintage race scene in the UK has got hugely competitive, so much so the rules have had to be tightened up a lot this year.  Turning up with a vintage Holiday Buggy with period radio and MSC doesn't cut it on the track like it did just a few years ago.  There's no reason why you can't race with an MSC, NiMH and 27MHz radio, but you really want the lightness and longevity of LiPo, smoothness of an ESC and reliability of 2.4GHz when you're on track with a bunch of other cars.

I went through a phase of trying to overpower everything, but these days I try to keep speeds reasonable.  I can't control a car that's too fast on track.  Also these days I find brushed is better value for money than brushless - OK, there are some cheap brushless systems on the market, but in my experience they're clunky, cog really bad and they're not as fast as they pretend to be.  And I've had a few cheap brushless ESCs let the magic smoke out for no obvious reason.  A 1060 ESC is solid and reliable (although there are increasing reports of failures recently, quality may be suffering under the chip shortage?) and there are rebuildable adjustable timing brushed motors for less than £20.  Are they as good as the mod motors from the 90s?  No, probably not, but they work well enough for me and they're cheap enough to replace if they fry - cheaper than sourcing parts for a vintage mod motor, anyway.

When it comes to servos - back in the early 90s I only ever had the cheap ones that came with the radios.  I didn't even know fast servos were a thing.  I didn't really know they were a thing until the last decade, when I realised how much difference they make in a race car.  Now almost all of my cars have fast-ish servos in them, even if they're cheap Alturn ones.  I've had countless Alturn servos (hi speed for race cars, hi torque for crawlers) and have been really impressed for the price, although availability became a problem a year or so ago and I haven't bought any more since then.  I've got a bunch of basic servos lying around which I'll use in big rigs and in a pinch I'll stick them in a project just to test it out, but I almost always plan on getting a fast servo fitted once it moves into the Runner category, and if I'm going to race it seriously it'll get a Savox of some sort.

It's been years since I drove a car with an MSC, and part of me wonders if I'd enjoy the directness again.  My only ever childhood new built was a Mud Blaster, and if Tamiya happen to re-release it as a complete kit, I might just think about kitting one out with that vintage MSC for nostalgia.  Then again, for true nostalgia I'd have to run it on the lane behind my house, where there are lots of parked cars, so maybe I'd worry about the MSC jamming and damaging other people's property.  I don't really have a place to go where I can afford for a car to go out of control.  I won't go back to NiMH - I've had too many problems with stick packs getting unbalanced and giving false peaks - so I'd need to fit a LiPo alarm, and I've had problems with those causing interference with the radio, which is totally not what you want with an MSC...

But - I have absolutely no problem with people who want to run their cars with vintage electrics.  It's your hobby, you can enjoy it however you like, I have respect for people with the patience to track down period-correct radios and motors, and I respect the choice to run things exactly as they were run back in the day, ramps made from plywood from your dad's shed, jumpers for track markings etc 

[El Gecko 1344]

I think most of my thoughts on this have already been said, but like some of you the biggest thing for me is modern radios. I'll never go back to the clunky 8AA Futabas and crystal receivers, they can stay on the shelf looking pretty while I'm out driving. I never cared what Tx I was using anyway, as long as it worked properly (which the old ones never did). So I feel I still get the full "vintage experience" because there's really no difference other than the radio, which isn't really all that different tbh. Two sticks, two trims, a few reversing switches (which the old ones didn't have) and On/Off. No frills, just simple and dead nuts reliable, with better range, longer/more efficient runtime on less batteries, and like @hIghQ said, no more ridiculous long antenna aerials

I do still worry that the MSC cars will go haywire, but I try to drive them in more open areas to minimize the risk, and they're all pretty slow anyway. I did some early postal racing with the Grasshopper with MSC and 4AA box (which are staying in the car), but nowadays all my other "daily drivers" use ESCs. Everything's on NiMH and brushed motors still, too. I don't need a quad turbo V12 on nitrous to have fun with these old muscle cars.

[SuperChamp82 743]

+1 @Saito2 when it comes to the full vintage experience 

All my dry day runners (78 to 92) have period motors, batteries (if they still hold charge …), electrics and RC 

You simply can’t beat the true period feel of jittery servos, a brutally direct MSC and power lag as old cells try to keep up 😊

Its a real trip down memory lane for me - and never fails to raise a grin !

My vintage NIB also all have NIB period electrics etc - again, so that when I build them it’s the old school experience I could only afford briefly as a kid 

That said, I completely get @Mad Ax points re the need for decent electrics + power in vintage racing - and would prob do exactly the same if I ever had a go 

What surprised me was the rules allow it - as old cars were obviously never designed for Lipo power + brushless motors … and the racing experience must be bonkers to say the least 😂

Anyway, each to their own as others have said - and thanks again to @Saito2 for another cracking thread 👍

[RichieRich 685]

All of my older stuff has period electronics. But, if I drive them, I use a modern radio. 75MHz radios are the devil, Mama!!! So glitchy!

[Thommo 1219]

 

Great topic !   This is a dilemma for me too.  The last few years I've been restoring my vintage cars to as original as possible but this condemns them to a status of shelf display only, never to run again.  Restoration good.... condemnation bad = personal dilemma.

I still have an OG Astute runner and I'm now facing the same internal conflict.  I think this thread has helped me make a decision.  I'll restore it to include as many OG Astute parts as I can and only keep what is absolutely necessary for it to remain a "Vintage Runner".

 

 

[Wongataa 42]

Back in the day I replaced the mechanical speed controller with an ESC in my Tamiya car.  Restoring my vintage car meant keeping the ESC (well i replaced it with a new because it was now faulty).

[Willy iine 18806]

5 hours ago, Wongataa said:

Back in the day I replaced the mechanical speed controller with an ESC in my Tamiya car.  Restoring my vintage car meant keeping the ESC (well i replaced it with a new because it was now faulty).

How far “back” are you talking?  I was thinking 40 years ago.  

1990’s to me is not really vintage (?)..    I know it’s all relative. 

[J@mes 2326]

I got a super blackfoot I run that has msc & mhz & it is super fun. Flip it in reverse and the wheels spin on command, some of my esc & ghz setups don’t always react immediately & can be described as glitchy by comparison. I am always more mindful of staying in range & switching on the tx 1st & last before & after the cars electrics for obvious reasons! Could be the nostalgia and could be something to do with the tx being stick & my modern setups all using a wheel but I like it, maybe more than…

[Juggular 4964]

We know what this means.

Younger folks don't know why old people like us use that gesture, because the phones they use are flat.  

They may not know how to use this ancient contraption.  

But they could use something like this. This has buttons to push. 

No, those aren't texting buttons...

Remember how your mom or sister was on the phone so long, they'd just rest the phone on a shoulder? 

The phone companies sold accessories for the shoulder-holding.

While they were on the phone, you couldn't get the call from anybody. (a ring tone while on the phone was a relatively newer invention)

This thing is every bit as old as that...

Does anybody know why this thing has hotshot-style resisters, by the way? (Maybe it was a custom job by the previous owner)

The Hotshot MSC looks like this, except this one has aluminum servo tray that I don't recognize... Willy's M38 had something similar, but I don't think this is it...

I only know two chassis using this particular MSC: the Fox and the Hotshot. Neither had this aluminum frame, so I'm baffled as to where the frame came from.  

Sometimes dirt and grimes would make the contact stuck. For the Grasshopper, it was easy to clean. It was right on top.  But the Fox?  You had to rebuild the entire chassis!  I love tinkering. But I did not enjoy repeatedly gutting the Fox... The MSC we see 99% of the time on things like the Grasshopper was better.  

What bothered me the most was the jerky movement.  Basically it darts out at 40% speed.  Then you go 60%, and 100%, so it felt. (I'm sure it was evenly spaced like, 33%, 66%, 100%)  Conceptually, I didn't like the energy being wasted.  Even if you run at 33% of the speed, you spent almost as much electricity as going at 100%. You just burn the rest as heat instead.  NiCds back then didn't have a lot of run time. No matter how fast or slow you go, you've got 10-15 minutes.  

Having said all that, I still consider this as my friend.  (I don't know why this 90's stuff is the oldest I have. I thought I had 80s stuff somewhere...)

Pushing forward to go forward seems so intuitive.  

I do like the steering wheel better, but I still don't like pulling left to go forward and pushing right to go backward.  

Most people use it like this. Which means pulling back makes it go forward. Pushing forward makes it go backward.  Yes, I have thought about reversing it. That's easy conceptually, but it doesn't feel comfortable on my finger.  I still like the idea of stick throttle, like an old dude. 

I admit tapping the throttle is 10 times easier with a trigger. (Well, not exactly true. With a trigger, I could pull like 20 times in 5 seconds, with a stick, I could push 14 times in 5 seconds. Thumb pushing is much more awkward and less precise.)  On that note, you can't really tap the throttle for fine control with MSCs. Mostly it won't do anything or it would do too much. ESC simply does better. To use the ESC's fast response better, I use the trigger (begrudgingly).  

But if I were to restore something vintage just for the shelf?  I could see myself polishing the MSC, I'd even clear-coat it so the shine wouldn't go away.  The idea of non-runner doesn't sit well with me, though. 

My wife wears either high heels or platform shoes. One of my female friends has only tried high heels once in her life (she's a hiker).  Women or men, everybody has different preferences. When it comes to speed control, we might like MSC, ESC or kicking the RC car forward while steering (that's something we did when we didn't know draining too much was a bad thing). There is no wrong way to cook the speed (except for over draining, of course).  

 

[OnTheTrail 1152]

On 1/23/2022 at 8:51 AM, M 800STD said:

Consider this;

Had lipo's, esc's and brushless motor's were available back then, then they would of been utilised by manufacturers.

My first hobby grade RC was a Blackfoot back in the late 80s.  One of the FIRST mods I did to it after bearings was a Futaba electronic speed control (couldn't believe I just paid $72 for a speed control for a $125 truck  ).   So I guess you could still be "vintage" while using an ESC.  LOL

I completely get the OP.   For me, all my projects are current offerings or re-re's so I don't see the point in putting in vintage electronics.  If I were to ever come across a true vintage kit that were destine to be a shelf queen then I'd consider building with included electronics.  

[OnTheTrail 1152]

On 1/24/2022 at 8:44 AM, Pablo68 said:

MSC's are the work of the Devil!!

Well maybe not but I did live through that era so I don't feel I need to use them to get the full vintage experience.

 

LOL.....yeah, if I want to relive the vintage experience, I can just burn my finger tips with a match.  

[Willy iine 18806]

4 hours ago, OnTheTrail said:

LOL.....yeah, if I want to relive the vintage experience, I can just burn my finger tips with a match.  

Day one with my original Brat in 1984, I think it was.  Had blisters for a week.  

As with 1:1 cars where you're not a true car guy until you can heel and toe like a pro on MT cars, unless one burns their fingers on MSC resistors, he's not a true RC guy.    jk

[Finnsllc 917]

OH GOD THATS HOT.........Whats that all about then?

[Saito2 6686]

[M 800STD 586]

When you're a kid and burn a hole through your MSC, it's kind of disappointing.

[AJB123 107]

In my mind it's quite similar to electronic ignition in classic 1:1 cars. Points seem to have a really bad reputation, and loads of people swap them out for electronic ignition, but I personally love the old-school mechanical nature of points, and never really have any trouble with them. To use as a daily driver, sure, electronic ignition is better.
For me the same with MSC vs ESC. I never had much trouble at all with the MSC in my Fox back in the day, and I love the mechanical and vintage nature of it for an original car. But I get that if people are driving theirs a lot, they might well choose to swap to an ESC.

[A-Baum 352]

While I loved Tamiya kits and RC cars I remember struggling a lot with 80s electronics and speed controllers in my Mad Wolf, Blackfoot, Fire Dragon and Astute. I was so jealous of the guys who could afford to drop serious coin on a Novak ESC.  I remember struggling with crystals in the transmitters. Overheating issues. Crappy battery life. That smell of "holy crap I just burned/melted something!".  It was kind of traumatizing and as fun as the hobby was and how strong the nostalgic factor is now, I absolutely don't want to relive those miserable times of dealing with crappy electronics. That equipment flat out sucked. Why would I want to use it ever again? Especially since with the body on, you can't even see that stuff.    

[El Gecko 1344]

On 1/29/2022 at 5:06 PM, M 800STD said:

When you're a kid and burn a hole through your MSC, it's kind of disappointing.

What about when a) the resistor cracks in half and b) all the resistor wires melt and short out on each other?

Oh, just rip all that stuff right off the MSC and keep using it... 100% forward, 100% reverse, and a full-short drag brake at neutral. Yee haw!

In hindsight, OF COURSE my ORV diff exploded

[markbt73 5316]

3 hours ago, El Gecko said:

What about when a) the resistor cracks in half and b) all the resistor wires melt and short out on each other?

Oh, just rip all that stuff right off the MSC and keep using it... 100% forward, 100% reverse, and a full-short drag brake at neutral. Yee haw!

In hindsight, OF COURSE my ORV diff exploded

That's how we wired up drag racers back then too. Instead of a Tamiya MSC, we used a 30 amp microswitch. Servo hits the switch, you get full power RIGHT NOW. Brakes were either a dead-short at neutral like that, or two switches, so that neutral was coasting and full back shorted out the motor for brakes.

Tires didn't last long, and neither did motors...

[Tgrif 89]

Having recently got back into it, and after having a Bigwig, Supershot and Monster Beatle in the late 80's, the new range of electronics is a breeze, reliable and no need for the extra weight and expense of a second servo. If i am fortunate enough to get a NIB vintage and maybe its a shelf queen, then yeah id keep it original, but on the other hand if I own it I will more than likely run it, as thats why i do it, and the new gear is easy and reliable.

[SuperChamp82 743]

All hobbies have ‘tells’ that date their members interests / talent …

But when (and how) you first had to hide 2nd degree burns on your thumb + forefinger from a Tamiya resistor - which, let’s not forget, was aimed at kids ! - is right up there 😂

Ditto the panic the first time you accidentally super glued tiny fingers together despite robust warnings from your Dad - then bit off the residue so he’d never know ?

Or practical lessons in electrocution - saying numb hands couldn’t hold your knife at supper because it’s cold outside …

All part of the vintage experience for me 👍

[Wooders28 4723]

If anyone has seen my RC and/ or 1:1 build threads , you'll know I disagree...🙄😬

MSC's where annoying back in the 80's, and when racing, one of the first things you did, along with bearings and a steel pinion, was to ditch the MSC, for the more energy efficient and more controllable ESC's (my 87 Ultima never saw its msc, went for futaba's 112b during the build).

If I remember right,  the likes of Schumachers CAT XLS, in the mid 80's ,didn't come with a MSC, and by the end of the 80's Kyosho had ditched them on their race cars? (Optima mid custom ,being their last?) and if my grey matter serves, don't remember one on the Avante?

As a cheap way of getting a kit more RTR, MSC's served their purpose I guess, but I don't have ,warm fuzzy memories of them.

I do like the 'look' of a modified brushed motor though, and some of the better quality ones ,wouldn't embarrass themselves on a track today, especially when backed with a modern power source...lipo (or the the now ,liHv)

Lipos are just brilliant in RC's , lighter ,more power, higher voltage and longer lasting, they just require a little bit more care.

For the most part, I was happy with the 27mhz radio, the big chunky sticks, and even having to carry a load of crystals ,wasnt too much hassle. It was only when old tech does ,what old tech does ,which is stop working I got a 2.4ghz, and now I've the Sanwa, couldn't go back.

So any vintage cars I've had my mits on, have been gutted of their old electrics, modern servo , 2.4ghz RX ,brushless motor and a lipo have been fitted, and they've been absolutely enjoyed , when used on a beach, a 3s lipo goes in, and they actually go, as well as the old tamiya vids suggested! (I'm sure some of those cars, where just thrown off dunes..😳) 

 

[Pablo68 1049]

One thing I will say in favour of the old batteries/electrics, they added more weight to your car.
A lot of the old chassis were designed with that extra weight in mind, hence my Hornet is twice as bouncy as it used to be, especially with a LiPo on board.

When I left the RC hobby people were doing all kinds of things to reduce weight on their chassis and some were using seven cell 8.4v batteries.

When I came back to the hobby, NiCad were almost gone, NiMh were being used and were the same weight but a heap more power, and we were just entering the transition to LiPo and extra weight kits and tire weights were being employed because the LiPo's were so darn light.

 

[Wooders28 4723]

10 hours ago, Pablo68 said:

When I left the RC hobby people were doing all kinds of things to reduce weight on their chassis

Once you had a super light chassis (probably under the legal weight limit), you added the weight back to where you needed it, so bit more over the nose if understeering etc.

Same with lipos now, you get ,under lipo weights, as low down weight helps keep the car stable.