TRF420X

[Zealot]

 

[catman79]

in my opinion, the development of these trf cars has now fallen way behind the competitors. tamiya used to lead the way in touring cars in the 2000's but sadly it looks like their interest has died off in this class, it was evident when they disbanded what was one of the best driver line ups in the world. couple that with the very high prices, it suprises me people still buy them. id imagine this kit will cost in the same price region as the latest xray car, which is far far superior. 

just my thoughts, and i don't wish to offend. i raced every tamiya touring car from the 415, through to the 418, and loved every one.  i just wish they would push their design innovation to a new level, and not produce something which is probably on par with a 3 year old xray. 

[Superluminal]

Out if interest as ive no direct experience of the TRF level cars or other manufacturers but what makes one better or more innovative than the other or perform better on track?

As a layman they all sort of look the same to me - a couple of carbon plates,  a drive belt, some alloy bodied dampers etc so they look like they would all drive the same way.

[InsaneJim69]

As carman says, it's a shame that this will be on par with cars 2-3 years ago. Tamiya seems to be late to the party every single time these days with competition machines. As said a modern X-ray, Yokomo etc with the same driver would give better and more consistent lap times. The problem the Tamiya cars always suffered was setup, where other manufacturers had loads of setup available as more people ran them. Some clubs would be lucky to have even 1 Tamiya in the touring car class. 

James.

[Finnsllc]

Its for sure  a gorgeous chassis as many other brand chassis are as well. As im much more a buggy guy, id agree with @Superluminal that i cant always discern what is offered that commands the trf pricing. Even the original trf buggies were incredibly expensive. Im not saying that "over paying" is a deal breaker to collect and build something offered that you that you want. Ive certainly invested way more money then is reasonable into a M06 chassis to convert it to all blue aluminum.  As far as what @catman79 wrote, If the "development" is not at par Id also like to know what the real world advantages are as far as price differences.Ive seen some really sexy on road chassis from other brands retail at $1000. If the TRF 420X is retailed at $400 say, does the behind development make a difference?

[catman79]

1 hour ago, Finnsllc said:

Its for sure  a gorgeous chassis as many other brand chassis are as well. As im much more a buggy guy, id agree with @Superluminal that i cant always discern what is offered that commands the trf pricing. Even the original trf buggies were incredibly expensive. Im not saying that "over paying" is a deal breaker to collect and build something offered that you that you want. Ive certainly invested way more money then is reasonable into a M06 chassis to convert it to all blue aluminum.  As far as what @catman79 wrote, If the "development" is not at par Id also like to know what the real world advantages are as far as price differences.Ive seen some really sexy on road chassis from other brands retail at $1000. If the TRF 420X is retailed at $400 say, does the behind development make a difference?

if i retails at $400 dollars then its a good buy, my guess is with many other tamiya's like this, it will start out nearer the $1000 mark. we shall see though. dont get me wrong, it looks nice, but its not even mid motor like pretty much every manufacturer. time will tell

[Superluminal]

1 hour ago, InsaneJim69 said:

As carman says, it's a shame that this will be on par with cars 2-3 years ago. Tamiya seems to be late to the party every single time these days with competition machines. As said a modern X-ray, Yokomo etc with the same driver would give better and more consistent lap times. The problem the Tamiya cars always suffered was setup, where other manufacturers had loads of setup available as more people ran them. Some clubs would be lucky to have even 1 Tamiya in the touring car class. 

James.

What is it about the tamiya chassis that lags behind the others though?

Are there design features of the xray / yokomos etc that arent present on the tamiya chassis that sets it behind?

Its only curiosity, as a touring car chassis theres doesnt seem to be enough visual differences to the untrained eye except maybe motor or battery position that sets them apart.

If it was say a TT02 or TA chassis then i could see it imediately as its tub vs plate chassis and the differences in stiffness they provide etc.

[hIghQ]

It's not mid-motor and the current Xray (X4) changed suspension to a new, different design. Awesomatix were drastically different even before that, but I haven't really followed what Yokomo did, as they were kind of late to many of these changes and I believe their car is probably still closer to Tamiya's design than the other two.

[Jonathon Gillham]

It will be designed for Japanese tracks, not super high grip black carpet that you get in America.  Rear motor is better for lower grip, and there will no doubt be mid motor conversions. This would suit me more as we run on low grip concrete.

Also, the X4 is getting a really bad reputation for reliability, costs about USD750. Probably sensible to avoid that until the next version comes out. Awesomatix are crazy fast, until you tap a barrier and your setup is gone so its back on the setup station to fix it. I've also seen many slow Awesomatix as the setup is so different to a regular TC that you really need to know how to set it up.

This will be faster for many people as it will be more stable with the rear motor, and they'll understand how to set it up, as the last 20 years of TC experience will still be relevant.

Will I buy one? I had a TRf420 in my cart last month but didn't get it. This would suit our track. Price from Hong Kong will be fine. Parts support won't be as good as Express for me, but $100 worth of spares in the pitbag covers that. But my TA07 is so close to the fast guys right now that I don't need an upgrade just yet...

[hIghQ]

I'm not in North America and luckily don't have to drive on that stupid, darn black carpet either. 

As for the supposedly bad reputation of the X4... well, to be fair, all I've seen so far is a handful of people telling scary stories (some with let's say "mild understatements" of the actual severity of their crashes, which somewhat hurts their credibility). Also, if the problem was indeed that extreme, IMHO the outcry would be much greater, but the majority of X4 owners seems to keep silent and apparently does not complain, so I'd say the jury is still out on this one. It's not as strong as the T4, but it also doesn't disintegrate just from seeing its own shadow either. 

True, Awesomatix are not tanks like the Xray T4s used to be, but they are also not quite as brittle as described here (nor are the settings). Also let's not pretend that other cars would not loose their settings (e.g. camber) after a hard whack. Even happens with T4s, trust me.  And of course there are also slow Awesomatix (like with any other manufacturer) around. Not because the car is so much more difficult to set up, but because Captain Slow will not turn into The Flash simply by buying an Awesomatix. But yes, they do require you to know what you are doing setup-wise. Never liked the hassle, that's why I never got one (and likely never will).

But seriously... I was only answering why people think the design of this new Tamiya seems a bit old to so many people. I'm not saying it's a bad car or that it will not work. But IMO Tamiya has pretty much given up on serious, world class racing when they disbanded their team a couple of years ago. Again, not saying this car won't be any good. But they are really no longer keeping pace with developments of other manufacturers, which is a shame, given their heritage. Now, does every average Joe (like me) really need the latest and greatest? Heck no! I'm nowhere near to unlocking any cars full potential. So even with a somewhat old-fashioned, but therefore also tried and true design, people can still be very, very fast. Faster than me even with a 2025 AweRay or X-somatix could ever hope to be. 

[mtbkym01]

I’ve not really got into the high end TC’s, but if I did the Mugen Seiki MTC2 would be high on my list, Japanese quality and cutting edge design. I am a bit biased though, I am a massive Mugen Fan, love them as much as my Tamiya’s

[joeling]

TC is sort of popular at my city where I work. So, I am slowly getting into it. Running a TA07MX single belt which I find novel. Also own a few Xpress kits. Well, I see mid motor is all the rage. Also, the latest suspension trend has mechanisms that will not tilt the body as the car corners (not sure what the correct term is). That is the latest innovation that new kits are starting to include. As with racing, upgrades develop too fast for the wallet to keep up especially for a casual like me. I prefer off road anyway.

[hIghQ]

6 hours ago, mtbkym01 said:

I’ve not really got into the high end TC’s, but if I did the Mugen Seiki MTC2 would be high on my list, Japanese quality and cutting edge design. I am a bit biased though, I am a massive Mugen Fan, love them as much as my Tamiya’s

You wouldn't do anything wrong. The MTC2 is indeed a very good car as well. 

[Raman36]

It is true that Tamiya led the way in this category up until the TRF417. Then Yokomo took over, only to be displaced by Xray. This displacement is more about how much $ they threw are the drivers versus true development in the chassis. If you compare a TRF417, to an X-ray T4 2020, the % of change is minimal. Not a single person on this site would benefit from the micro changes that took place. They have been completely out of ideas for past 10 years. So 2 years ago they come up with mid motor.. OMG how revolutionary, we’re back to 2005 with TA05.

The only company that took a different approach was Awesomatix. Mugen and Schumacher followed suit, Tamiya did with TA08.. Yokomo has dropped off the face of the earth.. so all was left was Xray.. the self proclaimed Luxury RC car brand.

Yes the X4 looks impressive, but as @Jonathon Gillham stated, there is serious buyers remorse. Forking out $800 for an RC kit only to have bulkheads bend in a crash, where the T4 2020 would have survived with no issues, definitely deserves bad reviews. The fact that Xray has addressed the bulkhead issue however not offered an exchange program for the weak part, also brings to question how luxurious they truly are. 
 

As for the TRF420X.. It will be priced just like the prior TRF kits and you can pick one up for $400-500. 

[Raman36]

7 hours ago, hIghQ said:

You wouldn't do anything wrong. The MTC2 is indeed a very good car as well. 

Mugen is a fantastic product. Their kits don’t suffer from the quirks of Tamiya, Kyosho and Yokomo. 
 

They really pay close attention to detail. 

[Raman36]

@hIghQ like Tamiya, Xray has its own fan boys.. and they’re super defensive about that flaws of the X4. Go on RCtech and read the X4 thread, lots of angry folk there. 

RC racing is but a tiny fraction of this hobby. Tamiyas revenues dwarf the other RC brands. This is why Tamiya dumped their team. The return on the investment was minimal.

[mtbkym01]

4 hours ago, Raman36 said:

Mugen is a fantastic product. Their kits don’t suffer from the quirks of Tamiya, Kyosho and Yokomo. 
 

They really pay close attention to detail. 

I love my Mugen 1/8 scale buggy and truggy, in fact I’m expecting the new MBX8R to my LHS on Tuesday arvo, very excited

[hIghQ]

7 hours ago, Raman36 said:

@hIghQ like Tamiya, Xray has its own fan boys.. and they’re super defensive about that flaws of the X4. Go on RCtech and read the X4 thread, lots of angry folk there. 

RC racing is but a tiny fraction of this hobby. Tamiyas revenues dwarf the other RC brands. This is why Tamiya dumped their team. The return on the investment was minimal.

I was actually referring to RCTech myself, I'm mostly active over there (under a different screen name), and I still don't consider the couple of people complaining about durability there a decisive proof on the matter, given that - as with anything else - usually only people who have a problem ever speak up at all, while everyone who is happy, just doesn't spend their time and energy to talk about a product working as intended. Also some of the "mild" crashes there would likely have damaged any other car just as well. Like I said, to me there's potential of a problem there, yes, but not enough proof to condemn the car. And while I have grown to really like Xray, I'm not a fanboy, and I did criticize them in the past and will continue to do so in the future - but on real issues. Haven't had the chance to drive my X4 yet, but if I happen to bend the parts in question after not doing any halfway hard enough crashes, I'll be ready to criticize them for it as well. But I'm not ready to jump on any bandwagon, started by people who's true intentions or motivation I don't know.

But of course, if someone says anything skeptical about a Tamiya, then it's just "haters gotta hate", while when someone says something about an Xray, then it's immediate proof something is wrong with the car... I don't think either is realistic, but to each his/her own. 

[BuggyGuy]

I don't really see anything wrong with the TRF420 or TRF420X - quality is great, nice and strong, decent list of options. A touch expensive maybe - but other manufacturers aren't exactly cheap.

Will be very fast and competitive cars, the TA07 and TA08 are possibly slightly more innovative - and there's the TB05R and TB Evo's for those that want something a bit different or to suit a particular track/taste or driving style.

If you want something really off the wall for on road racing from big T you can always get a TC01!

 

[hIghQ]

50 minutes ago, BuggyGuy said:

I don't really see anything wrong with the TRF420 or TRF420X - quality is great, nice and strong, decent list of options. A touch expensive maybe - but other manufacturers aren't exactly cheap.

I didn't actually see anyone complaining about any of these points.  (And being a Tamiya, not fulfilling those would be a huge surprise and quite a let-down.) The only slightly negative comments (but nothing to get worked up about) I have come across (both here and on RCtech) is that Tamiya is still only going for the old, standard touring car design formula from the last decade, while most competitors have mostly gone to at least mid motor configurations or even beyond that, with different suspension systems, etc. (e.g. Awesomatix, Xray and Mugen). Whether this will really be a disadvantage remains to be seen, but for many people it apparently feels like Tamiya has kind of lost touch with the state of the art touring car designs of other manufacturers. Which in itself would be a bit of a shame, since they were leaders in innovation once.

[Raman36]

For the record, Tamiya beat Xray to the punch with the TA08. The TRF420X is a car to fill the void and the 420 is discontinued.  The 421 which will take the TA08 arms to the next level.  

I doubt any of them dropped $800 so that they could have rights to hop on to RCtech and make negative comments about the X4.  They are angered that the high-quality product they just bought was easily damaged.  Damage which can occur at the owner’s hand, or someone else hitting you into a barrier.  So I don’t think they had some ill intention or motivation.  

“if someone says anything skeptical about a Tamiya, then it's just "haters gotta hate", while when someone says something about an Xray.”  No incorrect.  There are haters on both sides of the aisles. Tamiya however receives the greatest brunt of hate, especially on RCTech, where I would put the ratio of negative comments for Tamiya vs Xray at 10 to 1.  (read up on the 419 and TA08 thread)

People confuse Innovation with marketing. Take cell phones.. our new version has 3 camera lenses. Omg let’s dump our phones and buy the new one.  This is where Xray shines, they have done a brilliant job at marketing.  

After 4-5 years of T4 -16 to T4 21 where they added flex characteristics and eventually move to mid motor.  They kept selling cars though, why, great marketing.  Complaints eventually became loud enough that they had to listen.  So they followed Awesomatix, Mugen ans Schumi.  Their innovation? A carbon injection mould arm which over time maybe prove disastrous or ingenious, the cost however is very high. Beautiful to look at, that is for sure.  The aluminum shock tower on the X4 in my opinion is a poor choice.  Would I spend $800 on it? Not a chance.

I’ve owned 1 xray.  I drove it for a week, broke it once.  Part cost me $25, where the equivalent from Tamiya, Mugen, Kyosho, Yokomo, AE would have cost me $9. I sold it the following week. I don’t hate the product; I dislike the cost of replacement parts. Xrays do break just as much as other RC cars.  

[hIghQ]

We're really getting off-topic here, I fear... 

Well, since I have to admit I have not read all Tamiya threads on RCtech entirely, because the cars never really interested me all that much. But I never personally perceived anything I'd call "hate".

Like I said, the stories about the X4 do vary a lot. Some claim that it got damaged after only a slight tap (some apparently with videos, showing that it was quite a bit harder than just that), while others have apparently had hard crashes where actually nothing unexpected happened to the car. So which are true? Both? None? Who knows? Also, not all of the posters actually own an X4 themselves. Quite a few were about "I saw a friend's X4 do this"... and this is the internet, these stories may be true, or may just be trolling because they don't like Xray over all, or were upset that they could no t afford an X4 and felt they had to bad-mouth it (yes, idiotic stuff like this does happen on the internet). So, considering how popular Xray is and therefore their sales numbers probably are, for a car as hyped as the X4, I still consider the amount of complaints too small to accept it as undisputed proof of fault of the product. Mind, I'm not one of those fanboys that automatically claim that since it's an Xray, by default nothing could possibly wrong with it (I know, there's enough of those people on RCtech, too).

Yes, pricing is the point I actually do dislike about Xray, for both kits and parts. But after all, they design and produce in Europe instead of China and their product presentations (while yes, being marketing, are also very informative and detailed - no other manufacturers seems to even really try when compared), with very good manuals (which include many additional infos that no other manufacturer has in their manuals), plus all their videos (and no, I'm not talking about the stupid hype-building pre-release crap, but the detailed Tech Tips and Build videos they do with Alex Hagberg, integrated as QR-codes into their manuals now as well)... all that costs money. So to be fair... yes, unfortunately, they are extremely expensive. But IMO, they do give their customers quite a few things, others don't. Whether that's worth the premium is everyone's personal decision.

Oh and the material being CFF is not the only thing about this suspension making it better that the T4's. I have both, and I believe I know how to build cars properly. The X4's suspension is so... "smooth" that I was really stunned after I had built it. Again, I'm not claiming that it's better than what Mugen or Awesomatix do, but I do think it an improvement over the T4 (or any other standard design).

So, after I was a little disappointed with Xray for minimal to no change/innovation for years (T4 '15-'19) I can see why people think the same way about this new Tamiya. And to me that's just a realistic perspective, not hating on the company or the car.

[Honza]

15 hours ago, hIghQ said:

the stories about the X4 do vary a lot. Some claim that it got damaged after only a slight tap (some apparently with videos, showing that it was quite a bit harder than just that), while others have apparently had hard crashes where actually nothing unexpected happened to the car. So which are true? Both? None? Who knows?

I'd say both is true. X4's biggest issue is the upper bulkhead clamp. It's quite thin in the top part and that's where it bends when force is applied through the top arm - in most crashes however, forces go through the bottom arm, which might be reason why they didn't catch that during crash testing. Same thing with the steering links.

What I really didn't like was how X-ray handled the situation. They could ignore the problem or face it, both would be fine. But they did something in-between - replacing the problematic part with reinforced spares, without changing teir PN, so old parts won't stay in a warehouse.

Also, they announced that there won't be running change to the kit parts, but there was - ofcourse that change was less substantial to reduce costs.. That have me impression that they care more about profit than about their customers, which doesn't go that well with their "premium luxury product" marketing.

[hIghQ]

8 hours ago, Honza said:

What I really didn't like was how X-ray handled the situation. They could ignore the problem or face it, both would be fine. But they did something in-between - replacing the problematic part with reinforced spares, without changing teir PN, so old parts won't stay in a warehouse.

Also, they announced that there won't be running change to the kit parts, but there was - ofcourse that change was less substantial to reduce costs.. That have me impression that they care more about profit than about their customers, which doesn't go that well with their "premium luxury product" marketing.

True. All of it. The thread over there also showed that some people will sell their integrity for a sponsorship deal. That communication was a disaster.

[Mokei Kagaku]

33 minutes ago, hIghQ said:

True. All of it. The thread over there also showed that some people will sell their integrity for a sponsorship deal. That communication was a disaster.

For a company used to live off EC-subsidies and bragging about it, I reckon customer satisfaction and image aren't all that important.