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Saito2

I love mediocre driving dynamics.

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Call it charm. Call it personality. Call it quirkiness. When it comes down to it, I definitely prefer less-than perfect driving characteristics. Case in point: I've been working on taking a stock tub/ladder bar Clod Buster as far as it will go performance-wise. From opening up the tub bottom for more suspension travel (and relentlessly tweaking the suspension to deal with all that unsprung weight) to adding weights to the lowest part of the chassis to straightening out the Clod's poor steering performance. I finally succeeded in having a Clod the jumps straight, has controlled landings and goes where I point it, all with 15T motors. Basically using a lot of the ideas from the Regulator chassis concept, but cheaper. Function over form. And.....its boring. Time and time again I modify Clods in different ways but always come back to a stock-ish version. I actually love having a big bouncy truck that performs just like the original in the old promos. I've been down the same path with the Lunch Box. With a 4-link and FX10 front end, it handled better than any stock Lunchie. The result? I pulled all that off sticking with a few key fixes for the rear suspension while keeping the stock front end with its wild camber changes.

There just comes a point in modification or vehicle evolution where they get too good for me. While "personality" is not for the racer nowadays (who wouldn't want/shouldn't have to "drive around" a car's shortcomings), it is for me. Modding is fun, but there's a limit. A Blackfoot will always be more fun than a Blitzer to me. I guess I'm getting old, but give me slower speeds and awkward handling any day.

 

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I too enjoy the casual GT style driving.  I basically don't crash so I drive all cars I’ve built including shelf queens.  And their setups are only good enough for my casual driving.  I leave the quirks as it makes the cars have character.  I enjoy watching my cars in motion.  :D 

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I'm with you on this. I keep all mine basically stock with just minor upgrades like bearings, servo saver etc. The only car I dont like in stock form is the lunchbox but all the rest have their quirks (understeer, falling over, wide turn circle etc) which make them more interesting. I think if I put faster motors in then some may need some work, but that doesn't appeal either these days, thats what race cars are for

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I agree with the charm factor quite a bit. There's this combination of character/performance at both ends of the spectrum that fascinates me.  My Monster Beetle is brushless-  but with a 21.5 turn sensored powerplant that seems slower than a silver can.  All else on the chassis is stock with stock yellow dampers as well and its an absolute joy to ramble about in the grass. My Blackfoot has TRF dampers and a Superstock BZ motor and aluminum steering knuckles with raised ball ends to eliminate bump steer, and its much more capable if going at the same speeds as the Monster Beetle.  However, since it is capable of going much faster I have to be wary of going too fast during some dips and ruts to avoid a rollover.  Driving it requires a bit more attention than the MB where you can just go full out while climbing or lumbering across terrain and admire how it moves about.

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Yep, that’s exactly why SRB’s appeal to me @Saito2 

I like mine just as they are out the box all be it with a slightly ‘quicker’ motor in make for some very visually appealing running, especially on the beach 😁

I can’t read (presuming) Japanese but this guy added weight to a Sand Scorcher and just looks fantastic wallowing about on the sand…

 
He has done the same with a Rally Beetle to with great aesthetically pleasing performance at a porky 2.4kg, so definitely not built for speed…

 

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When I was watching the Monster Jam recently, it was great to see that the trucks weren't perfect. They were a handful, they didn't always take the perfect line and bits broke.

When my son and I got out our modified CR-01 the next day, it was good to see some of the 'personality' of the real monsters in the RC.

Whilst it jumps pretty flat, there is huge torque twist off the line (I'll lose the left rear wheel nut at least twice a session), it will lift an inside wheel during donuts and give it too much power and it will flip out.

I love to see the suspension working and the chassis roll as it careers around our back yard.

I'm sure there is great fun (and great skill) in competition but this suits my eight year old (and my inner eight year old).

 

 

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45 minutes ago, Re-Bugged said:

Yep, that’s exactly why SRB’s appeal to me @Saito2 

I like mine just as they are out the box all be it with a slightly ‘quicker’ motor in make for some very visually appealing running, especially on the beach 😁

I can’t read (presuming) Japanese but this guy added weight to a Sand Scorcher and just looks fantastic wallowing about on the sand…

 
He has done the same with a Rally Beetle to with great aesthetically pleasing performance at a porky 2.4kg, so definitely not built for speed…

 

Love it. I quite like heavier, chunkier vehicles. My cars are nearly all monster trucks, and the GF01 is a close to refinement as I have! 

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I am not a particularly good buggy driver, but I am a decent helicopter pilot.

With helicopters, I have found to my chagrin that heavily modified helicopters have more power, roll rate, climb rate, tail holding power, etc. but they lack the balance and responsiveness of a rock-stock or tastefully modified 130X.

Not only that, but that stock 130X can do more aerobatics than I am capable of. 

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Totally agree. I think of it as the "Anna Karenina" rule: Good-handling cars are all alike, lousy-handling cars are all lousy in their own way. And more interesting for it.

Note that this does not translate to 1:1 cars. I have no interest in exploring the handling "quirks" of, say, a Lincoln Town car...

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I think for me it's the challenge of trying to tame an unruly car, and the elation at finally succeeding in nailing that perfect drift, or finally putting a nice smooth lap together.

Simply trying to keep from spinning out or crashing into something can be a struggle with certain cars.

An overpowered ORV with bald tires and a sticking shock on one side is quite a handful. But it still looks great sliding around and roosting, so I still keep trying :lol:

I also find it's good to mix up the muscle memory with different cars. Keeps me on my toes and doesn't let me get too stuck with one type of handling or speed.

I drove my old Sledgehammer the other day for the first time in awhile, and it struck me just how much the suspension rolls in turns, and how smooth and easy it drives over the trails now. It took a lot of tweaking over the last year or so to get to this point, but the big difference (as in the videos above) has been all the weight I've added in various ways. I think it's just something about the inertia or momentum of the extra weight, because even with softer shocks/springs, the lighter weight truck just didn't work correctly in my eyes.

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I'm on the fence with this.

I agree in principle, for the most part, but on the other hand, I sometimes enjoy making stuff handle better.

Ironically, my Lunchbox with DT-02 front suspension and 4-link rear is probably one of my favourite runners, in large part because the rear suspension doesn't lock up under throttle anymore. I find it incredibly satisfying to watch the rear end glide over bumps now. 

On the other hand, some vehicles I prefer to keep as they are. Sometimes it can be fun to try and keep inside the limitations of something's abilities.

 

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I'm not entirely sure where I stand.  I think, in principle, I love the idea of the characterful handling of old cars, but something in me wants to improve everything as far as I can.  It might just be the natural tinkerer in me, it might be that I really enjoy the improvement process, it might be that I want to prove to people with the latest and greatest that you can still get acceptable results with something old and modified.  Or it might be my poor driving ability, combined with my running areas.

First - my home garden, while not small by UK standards, isn't that spacious and has lots of hard, suspension-destroying obstacles like fence posts, climbing frames and Belfast sinks full of dirt and weeds.  I can't afford to run a car that's going to veer off-line and catch a wheel, ripping off the suspension.  If I've got a car that can't handle a few bumps without spinning around and heading off at 90 degrees, I won't run it at home.  That said, I rarely run at home anyway, only to test stuff quickly.  Every plan to stage a "home solo GP" style event has been postponed because I'd rather be in the workshop tinkering than in the garden playing.

Second - the racetrack.  I don't race a lot, but I enjoy vintage series.  When I first started, vintage meant "dig out an old original or buy a re-re, turn up at the track and race."  Now it means having to build, modify and set up a car properly, just to get out of the bottom group.  There are some very competitive racers, including former world champs.  This year, rules have changed to restrict mods to "period only" - i.e. a GRP TMS-style Hotshot is OK but no carbon double-deck chassis and ball diff on an original Holiday Buggy - but shocks, tyres and electrics are unlimited, and nobody can stop you from shimming your dodgy old Tamiya hinge pins to get the most accurate setup.  And to be honest, I don't enjoy trying to be competitive when I've got a car that won't track straight or flips over on every corner.  It's no fun trying to drive around that, it's frustrating.

Third - the bash days.  I don't really enjoy driving alone, so I like to take my cars to places like Tamiya Junkies.  There, I'm bashing on track with drivers who are much faster than me, driving cars that have been modified, or are much newer, than mine.  While it's fun to have a midday blast with the Lunchboxes, or to try to tame a standard Fox on a fast outdoor track, it's no fun if I have to pull over every other corner to let a faster car through, or to risk spinning out and crashing when other people are running expensive models.  Besides, there's no official marshalling at non-race days, so if I flip my car or get stuck, I have to rely on a friendly helper or (more often) run down the steps, retrieve my car, and run all the way back up again, only to flip or get stuck 2 corners later.*  So, I at least like to modify and setup my cars so they're predictable to drive.

On the flipside, the most fun racing I've ever done is the Revival Monster Truck Race.  Sadly it isn't run any more due to time constraints, but it was usually a 10 minute non-trophy race around the astro track using any vintage monster truck (Clods, Blackfeet, Sledgehammers, etc., generally not stadium trucks).  Old bodyshells would be donated to spread around the course, either to jump over or crash through.  My weapon of choice was my near-stock King Blackfoot, the only mods being a Super Stock BZ motor, bearings, oil shocks and a lexan body.  It was my favourite race every year.  The KBF had enough speed to clear the jumps and tabletops and the bodyshell obstacles under them, sometimes even enough to completely clear the track barrier, cutting off 30% of the lap distance (as far as I'm concerned, if you can go fast enough to do that, land it square and carry on without missing a beat, it's fair game - in fact it probably deserves a Cunning Stunt Bonus - in a non-trophy / non-points race, of course!).  It would wheelie on demand, making it easier to bash through the bodies littering the track.  It wouldn't corner at all, but that's OK, slowing down into the corners meant it was easier to set up the wayward chassis for the next jump.  Sometimes it would land badly and cartwheel half way across the track, but that was OK too.  It didn't matter if I landed half a lap ahead or half a lap behind, as long as I got back on my wheels and I could still drive, I was having fun.  But in that race, results didn't matter (by my count, I won it every year, both on total laps and fun had) - what mattered was having a good laugh and having the chance to run some silly trucks without worrying about laptimes, car setup, tyre choice, starting position, corner entry lines, braking points, drag brake settings, expo, slower traffic or lapping leaders.

 

*Back in 2020, I joined a local tarmac club so I could get some practice in during the height of social distancing.  Mostly it was empty when I went.  Trying to set up a TL01-LA for the Iconic Cup was a painful process - on a cold evening, the car would spin off the track on every corner.  It's a big track, with a long walk to the rostrum and back, and it's built on a ridge, so it's hard to see it all from ground level.  I swear I spent more time running up and down the steps than I actually did testing the car.

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On 6/30/2022 at 3:45 AM, Re-Bugged said:

I can’t read (presuming) Japanese but this guy added weight to a Sand Scorcher and just looks fantastic wallowing about on the sand…

I'd say that setup is about perfect!  It is performing similar to a 1:1 car, and he is going appropriate scale speed.  It truly looks like a model, suitable for radio control.  Put a black & white video filter over that, some noise and a voice over commenting on who finished where, and that could be a competitor in the 1983 Dakar running down the finish line in the sand at the beach.

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On 6/30/2022 at 11:26 AM, markbt73 said:

Totally agree. I think of it as the "Anna Karenina" rule: Good-handling cars are all alike, lousy-handling cars are all lousy in their own way. And more interesting for it.

Note that this does not translate to 1:1 cars. I have no interest in exploring the handling "quirks" of, say, a Lincoln Town car...

Kinda off topic but...

Back when I worked at GM in development, my first education in performance driving was navigating an autocross course on a parking lot in a Chevy Tahoe, the shorter version of the Suburban.  It was an absolute blast to drive that beast at the limit! :D 

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15 hours ago, SlideWRX said:

Back when I worked at GM in development, my first education in performance driving was navigating an autocross course on a parking lot in a Chevy Tahoe, the shorter version of the Suburban.  It was an absolute blast to drive that beast at the limit! :D 

True that.  I think it's valid to the thread, too.

One time, a friend came over with his Suzuki GS500 motorcycle.  He'd owned all sorts of fast bikes before, from little 2-stroke screamers to 900cc sports machines.  I was surprised to see him on a 15-year-old 2-cylinder commuter bike like the type I took my test on.

"Take it for a ride." He said.  So I threw on my helmet and went out.

And what a hoot it was!  Riding a big sportsbike, you can never use anywhere near the performance of the motor on a public road.  And most of us aren't good enough to unlock the performance on track, either.  Little 2-stroke sportsbikes have more accessible motors, and it's fun getting them to where they work best, but they'll corner faster than the rest of the traffic is prepared for, so again, you can't really get the full potential unless you go to a track.  But the humble GS500, with its skinny commuter tyres and its bargain basement suspension and its little thrumming twin was superb fun - everything you need on a road bike.  Suspension and brakes were good enough to keep you out of trouble while letting you appreciate being close to the limit at higher speeds.  The motor worked fine around town (unlike a tuned 2-stroke) but it still needed a lot of rider input to get the best on the open road.

Given the choice, most of us would gravitate towards more power, better suspension and generally nicer vehicles, but the fact remains, on everyday roads, you can have a lot more fun hustling something that isn't tuned for speed.

I guess it's much the same appeal for RC.  The speed / power / handling advantage really only applies when you're racing other people or playing top trumps.

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Definitely for me I love the fact that the likes of the sand scorcher constantly wants to slide down the road pirouetting on its roof and the monster beetle suspension has nothing to do with the shocks or springs and the avante back in the day was tamiya's super hi-tec off road racer but the one thing it wasn't was a off road racer (it was equivalent to a dodo racing a kestrel) and the hotshot with it's so called smooth prop shaft that was anything other than smooth? But I wouldn't have it any other way because they all look stunning in my eyes and as I'm past the club racing stage these days how they perform is completely irrelevant to the extent I love quirky nature of them all because its 100% nostalgia that I'm looking for and the mediocre driving dynamics are a good percentage of the nostalgia I'm looking for:D

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On 6/30/2022 at 8:45 AM, Re-Bugged said:

I can’t read (presuming) Japanese but this guy added weight to a Sand Scorcher and just looks fantastic wallowing about on the sand…

 

That guy is great! Certainly not setup for high speed running but it terms of realism at scale speeds, his mods are second to none! You can get somewhere in the ballpark sometimes with softer springs etc but nothing quite matches the visual realism of piling the weight on. This was the first video of his that I saw. Simply mind blowing!
 

 

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With all the extra weight his cars would definitely need to be on stands to avoid flat spots on the tyres when not in use!!

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Yeah I have a bunch of old Tamiya cars, and a bunch of both Tamiya and other brands race chassis offerings.
I love the build quality and tech that goes into proper race buggies, but unless you actually race them (I don't) they are a tad boring to tool around and bash with.

I really enjoy resto modding old Tamiya buggies, usually bought as an old non working proposition, as there is pleasure to be derived from fixing them up and making them live again.
 

One point to remember is that you can only mod a car so far before it becomes something else, not the car you started with. I have a Monster Beetle. It has a brushless system, Ampro rear end susp, Kimborough servo saver on a decent servo, TRF shocks (yes really) and a stiffening frame thing for the front shock tower that I drew up and printed out (based on other designs of same tbh) and in the end, It is fast, fun, handles well, and is not really a Monster Beetle any more.

That is the dilemma you can face when modding.

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On 7/1/2022 at 1:26 AM, markbt73 said:

Totally agree. I think of it as the "Anna Karenina" rule: Good-handling cars are all alike, lousy-handling cars are all lousy in their own way. And more interesting for it.

Note that this does not translate to 1:1 cars. I have no interest in exploring the handling "quirks" of, say, a Lincoln Town car...

Spot on I reckon although I now want a 1:10 Town car ;)

 

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On 6/29/2022 at 1:44 PM, Saito2 said:

A Blackfoot will always be more fun than a Blitzer to me. 

Would any of you mind listing out the fun/charming/quirky chassis for those of us that are new?  I only have a Lunchbox so far but I quite enjoy it a lot.  I will be getting the Grey Edition Clod Buster when it comes out.  What else?

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15 hours ago, johnnycarlos said:

Would any of you mind listing out the fun/charming/quirky chassis for those of us that are new?  I only have a Lunchbox so far but I quite enjoy it a lot.  I will be getting the Grey Edition Clod Buster when it comes out.  What else?

Well, when dealing with trucks, the Lunch Box and Clod Buster are both great "quirky" chassis to start with. The Monster Beetle/Blackfoot (same chassis/underpinnings) also work well in this category. They're more capable than the Lunch Box off road and aren't nearly as wheelie prone. They still drive very old-school with a great deal of uniqueness you don't find in today's designs. I do recommend researching them as their drivetrains aren't as bulletproof as the Lunch Box or Clod Buster. If you like even more wheelie action, the WR02 and GF01 chassis provide that in 2wd and 4wd form.

In my experience, Blitzer-type trucks are still fun but are much more planted and stable. They aren't race-caliber or anything, but far less "interesting" in their dynamics at lower power levels. If you begin to add big power, that stability helps (while upping the fun-factor) whereas the same big power might make a less stable truck like a Lunch Box, uncontrollable.

The more advanced buggies became, the less quirky they became. A Frog is more quirky than a Fox which is more quirky than a Super Astute. A lot of Tamiya vehicles have "personality" but something like a DF01 Top Force will have less distinction in its driving dynamics than a Super Hot Shot would. Hoper this helps.

 

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10 minutes ago, Saito2 said:

The Monster Beetle/Blackfoot (same chassis/underpinnings) also work well in this category. They're more capable than the Lunch Box off road and aren't nearly as wheelie prone. They still drive very old-school with a great deal of uniqueness you don't find in today's designs. I do recommend researching them as their drivetrains aren't as bulletproof as the Lunch Box or Clod Buster.

 

15 hours ago, johnnycarlos said:

I only have a Lunchbox so far but I quite enjoy it a lot.

I wanted a Monsterized Beetle but wasnt interested in its chassi and included issues with the drive train so i started with a Lunchbox and made my own "BeetleBox" by making new body mounts for a beetle shell, adding front wishbone suspension, extending the mounting position for the rear wheels backwards and converting the stock gearbox from the solid rolling axle to instead instead be hard mounted with outdrives and independent swing arms for the wheels. (quite similar to how the Monster Beetle/Blackfoot rear end works but with the bulletproof Lunchy diff.)

Havnt driven it on any high grip surface yet but i do expect that it would wheelie since slamming the throttle forward while moving in reverse lifts the front wheels when on gravel with the battery in the stock position.

If it turns out i want more wheelies there is space so i could make mounts to put the battery further back, on top of the rear end mounts/under the rear top tray.

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15 minutes ago, Saito2 said:

I do recommend researching them as their drivetrains aren't as bulletproof as the Lunch Box or Clod Buster. If you like even more wheelie action, the WR02 and GF01 chassis provide that in 2wd and 4wd form.

The more advanced buggies became, the less quirky they became. 

I forgot to mention when I posted that I had just ordered a Grasshopper.  My goal there is to take it to the beach (cheap, long run times).  This thread spoke to me because I was thinking that I liked my Lunchbox best with the stock motor, and I assume the Grasshopper too.  I'm getting older and changing the way I drive.  Leaning towards the enjoyment of scale, and fewer repairs.  I'm in the US and parts availability is my main concern with Tamiya.  As much as I enjoy the charm, and I really do, the Lunchbox has already given me some trouble in that regard so I'm cautious.  I've always wanted a Clod though, but I will probably drive it carefully.

What I gather then is next for me then should be the WR02 or GF01, over the Blackfoot .  I'd prefer the GF01 for the chance to put 4wd on the beach too, but none are available here at the moment except for the Dump Truck, which I had read somewhere did not have the same driving characteristics as the other GF01s (forward heavy if I recall correctly).

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@Saito2 Great topic. I completely understand what you're saying. In fact, I started a similar thread some months ago.

 

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