Blackfoot vs Monster Beetle weights

[Saito2]

Does anybody know the weight difference between the Blackfoot and Monster Beetle? I know the chassis are probably about the same but the BF body feels a good bit heavier. The reason I ask is the Blackfoot seems to make actual use of its front suspension with its increased body weight, whereas the MB front end seems to skim over obstacles. I know dampening adjustments can correct this but I just prefer the driving dynamics of the BF better, despite liking the appearance of the MB better. Splitting hairs, but I'm weird.

[Kol__]

Lol, we're all weird on here mate!

I think the difference in body weight is so slight that it would be impact the handling or shock performance. However I think the shocks themselves are different between the two models.

I own a vintage (mostly) MB and the shocks both front and rear are too stiff imo. They need softer springs. I'm going to fit a different set of shocks, softer springs and plastic piston rings (not sure the if the stock MB shocks have them, I think they're fixed metal pistons on the rods) for some further adjustability along with different shock oil weights front and rear.

[Juggular]

Since you mentioned damper adjustment, they are re-releases?  I loved running my vintage Blackfoot that has no shocks. So bouncy.  

If both are re-res, and as @Kol__ mentioned new Monster Beetle comes with these nail heads, then it could be the weight.  My re-re Blackfoot came with these.  As you've seen, I had to file notches into them to make the shocks soft. 

Maybe you can run both of them without shells and see how they run.  Or you could possibly swap shells and run, but the body posts are different. (I cracked the chassis once while I tightened the screw on the body post, so I would not want to try swapping.)  Maybe tape up some other weight to the chassis, like a broken mug or something?  If both chassis run the same, then it's the weight.  I enjoy splitting hairs, by the way. And I'm curious as to how much the weight difference is. But I only have two Blackfoots (...Blackfeet?) 

 

[Saito2]

The Blackfoot is a re-re and the Monster Beetle is original although I run the nail head re-re shocks on both so spring rates are the same. I filed notches in the nail heads equally on both as well as they are over-damped stock.

Here's what I've found. Like @Juggular, I like the bouncy un-damped shock from the original Blackfoot. Drives just like the promo vids. Awesome. The only problem is, if I get too aggressive with bashing/jumps, the weight of the Blackfoot body baring down on the single front body post leads to hood cracks. Now, while this could be fixed with some ingenuity, there are other issues. The lower shock mounts can take a pounding and begin splitting too. This has never happened on any of my Monster Beetles. When I built my re-re Blackfoot, I relented and went with the oil dampers included in an attempt to soften the blows. So far, so good.

With Monster Beetles, I've played around with CVA 1 shocks and have found they needed set up with the largest hole pistons to get any front action, much like setting up for lexan bodies. Still, seeing the front wheels moving doesn't equal the more weighty-feeling dynamics of the Blackfoot. I guess this is why I'm curious of the weight difference so I can potentially add weight to the MB. I really need a small scale.

[Juggular]

There is something about the original driving characteristics.  If you were to race, not so great. But it was totally fun-oriented.

Oh, I wonder if you could use seesaw as a scale?  You could even a stick, and measure equal distance on it, tape the shells on. One quarter coin weighs 5.7 grams. (Better yet, a nickel weighs exactly 5 grams. A cent is half of that.) You could keep taping coins on MB until the seesaw evens out. (Then again, I haven't used coins as currency in a long while...)

P.S. I'm so glad I'm not the only one who filed the nail heads. 

 

[ruebiracer]

For my Monster beetle runner, I use the original CVA 1 shocks with some mods. I don´t recall the front springs at the moment I use, but also rears are way to stiff. So I use Top Force springs in rear on 3 Monster beetles in the family. That gives a little bit of droop in the rear, which makes the MB a great performer. So smooth, really absorbing the tracks. Benefit is also less tweaking of the rear trailing arms. But maybe that´s the opposite of what you want? Bouncing is gone then...

[ruebiracer]

Found the info for the front spring: If I´m not fooling myself I use Mad Fighter front springs (item no. 9805784) for the front end.

[Kol__]

Interesting @ruebiracer, I'll look into those Top Force front springs as an option mate. I have a spare set of Manta Ray front springs, so I'm wondering if they will work. I believe the shock body is the same between the Manta Ray and Monster Beetle.

Regarding the Mad Fighter front shock springs, I think they're the same as the Mad Bull. Aren't they a little short for the 'short' shock bodies? I think they're better suited to the 'mini' CVA's. Or have you fitted mini's to the front of your MB?

[ruebiracer]

33 minutes ago, Kol__ said:

Interesting @ruebiracer, I'll look into those Top Force front springs as an option mate. I have a spare set of Manta Ray front springs, so I'm wondering if they will work. I believe the shock body is the same between the Manta Ray and Monster Beetle.

Regarding the Mad Fighter front shock springs, I think they're the same as the Mad Bull. Aren't they a little short for the 'short' shock bodies? I think they're better suited to the 'mini' CVA's. Or have you fitted mini's to the front of your MB?

Hi again,

maybe you´re right with the Front Mad Bull springs. I purchased in 2013 some springs to test, and the paper sheet of them was left. Probably I didn´t mount them.

But I found another label in my box: Mad Figther rear: 9805786. These should be the bigger diameter I have in front, my mistake!

Regarding the Top Force springs, I use these for rear: 9805752 originally labelled as Manta ray / Desert gator rear.

I also use some replacement piston rods from different Tamiyas, because my originals were scratched/damaged from the previous owner.

The Re Re piston rods are total rubbish and not even chromed. Not worth for me to modify them with notches. I just use "real" ones with plastic pistons to change. But I´m a bit "special", when it comes to dampers...

[Kol__]

Ah nice one @ruebiracer, so hopefully the Manta Ray springs will work for the rear. I recently rebuilt a set of those for my DF-01 build and did away with the horrible fixed metal pistons on the rods. Instead I picked up some Boomerang pistons rods (couple mm shorted so couple mm less suspension travel, but no biggie) and used different hole plastic pistons front and rear and different weight oil. Also fitted stiffer springs front and rear. Not been run yet, but I bet it's a better runner than stock.

Yeah the Mad Bull rear springs are certainly longer than the front, so I could see how they would work on the MB shock bodies. I have some of those as well, so will try those as well.

I find shocks one of the most fun parts of RC modifying, but I've no idea why

[ruebiracer]

8 minutes ago, Kol__ said:

Ah nice one @ruebiracer, so hopefully the Manta Ray springs will work for the rear. I recently rebuilt a set of those for my DF-01 build and did away with the horrible fixed metal pistons on the rods. Instead I picked up some Boomerang pistons rods (couple mm shorted so couple mm less suspension travel, but no biggie) and used different hole plastic pistons front and rear and different weight oil. Also fitted stiffer springs front and rear. Not been run yet, but I bet it's a better runner than stock.

Yeah the Mad Bull rear springs are certainly longer than the front, so I could see how they would work on the MB shock bodies. I have some of those as well, so will try those as well.

I find shocks one of the most fun parts of RC modifying, but I've no idea why

Shocks are great fun! Still playing around with them since childhood, even in my real job. Tamiya´s fault!

During Corona lockdown 2020 I made some jump runs for fun with my runner:

 I

I could land all of them without rolls and damages, except one failure I had not in in mind:

So don´t forget Albert, he quitted jumping after 40 minutes of torture.

Maybe he needs a damped seat!

[Kol__]

Haha! Awesome jumping ramp there! I haven't even got around to fitting Albert to mine yet. I filled the holes for the side mirrors, wipers, rear lights etc. because I knew those parts would be destroyed pretty quickly in this runner. Not sure how long Albert will last once he goes in. Either extra reinforcement will be required like you suggest or he will meet a quick and timely demise.

Just had a look at the build thread for my original MB. It's fitted with the piston rods and plastic pistons so I assume that's how the original MB 1986 shocks were set up and they cheapened it up for the 2015 rere.

These are what I plan to fit to my MB, but they will be dyed and various springs will be tried to get the best performance.

[ruebiracer]

Nice set of shocks! Keen on your dying experience! And you´re totally right, Tamiya cheapened the shocks for the 2015 Re Re and used the Manta Ray one piece piston/rod. Too cheap for me. Although they took CVA2 shocks with collar sleeves and new springs, so they had some thoughts. (But the wrong ones). Totally weird is also the spacers outside the shock body to limit bump travel. They should have put some inside to limit the extended length. Especially rears are a tad to long and putting pressure with the long springs one the trailing arm  in static mode.

[Kol__]

Yeah I never quite get the external shock spacers. If the spring is too soft, why didn't they fit one that is stiffer. Using those external collars messes with ride height and sag too I find, but tbh my experience is limited.

I've had good results with dying a set of wheel and shocks so far. See my DT-03 build thread mate, shocks dye process about half way down page 1 -

[ruebiracer]

Wow, that turned out **** good on your Racing Fighter!

I recently build a DT03 Black Fighter for and with my nephew. Quite cool buggys for the price this DT03´s.

Just the Torque tuned driving in grass got so hot after one battery, not good to run another pack through without cooling.

Guess a Cup MAchine with an internal fan would be better rgarding that...

So I´m keen on your next shock dying session.

Can you keep the Rit dye sauce for several sessions? Or do they boil out or sth.? And what to do with the rest, without coloring everything around...

 

Kind regards,

Matthias

[RichieRich]

On a side note, what the heck is up with these nail head piston/shaft things? I was excited to get a set of CVA shocks with the CC-01 I built a while back. I was disappointed with the nail heads they included. I guess they served their purpose because I instantly replaced them with the 54541 damper set.

[Kol__]

9 hours ago, ruebiracer said:

Wow, that turned out **** good on your Racing Fighter!

I recently build a DT03 Black Fighter for and with my nephew. Quite cool buggys for the price this DT03´s.

Just the Torque tuned driving in grass got so hot after one battery, not good to run another pack through without cooling.

Guess a Cup MAchine with an internal fan would be better rgarding that...

So I´m keen on your next shock dying session.

Can you keep the Rit dye sauce for several sessions? Or do they boil out or sth.? And what to do with the rest, without coloring everything around...

 

Kind regards,

Matthias

Yeah the DT-03's are such a great buggy for the money. I've been giving mine some decent, but not extreme by any means, bashing and its held up perfectly well 

You could probably keep the Rit dye for future use if wanted. It's mixed with water when put on the heat, some does boil off into steam, but not much. I think I added a little more water towards the end. At £8 a bottle I treat it as a disposable item and pour it down the outside drain when finished dyeing the parts. Plus, if you were to try to re-bottle it, it could get very messy I suppose. One thing I found is that to get the colour I wanted I ended up dyeing the parts for a lot longer than I thought I would, something like 65-70mins