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Pylon80

Thinking out loud: the EIEFBS syndrome and what RC is all about

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EIEFBS - Enough Is Enough FeeBay Syndrome

I thought I would come to TC to share a recent experience and perhaps seek the wisdom of modelers with a similar passion to mine. I will try to keep it positive and respectful - not vent - and see what everyone else's thoughts and experiences might be.

There are many sides to our hobby but it usually comes down to driving or building or collecting model cars. These objects often remind us of "the good old days". And we all have one thing in common: our kits, parts and tools need to be purchased at some point. I can't speak for other countries but if like me you live in the US, in 2022 you don't exactly walk in your "local hobby shop" because it will hardly stock any Tamiya products. So I source my Tamiya goods from one good online store that does good business with decent shipping cost and whenever they don't have what I want - quite often actually - or if I must buy it used, I head to eBay. Along the way I got "into the system" and before I knew it I was re-selling 1 in every 4 or 5 items that I had bought! Things continued like this for a few years but recently a few unpleasant things happened in close succession:

- I noticed that I was paying selling fees on the shipping even when it was a calculated shipping, not my own extravagant invention;

- I sold a very small parts bag from a Tamiya kit. It contained screws and nuts and things. Well the buyer decided he could get it for free if he only claimed it was "open and not what he ordered" and be a quite rude about it. In this day and age everybody expects the "amazon treatment": free shipping and free return no questions asked.

- The following week as I was selling one of my vintage airplane nitro engines I was advised that I had unknowingly hit the magic number of 600$ worth of sale for the year. I would now have to pay income tax on my eBay activities which will then exceed the value of the engine in question. It is important to note that out of this **600$** I would be stunned if 400 actually made it to my pockets: that number seems to include shipping, eBay fees, eBay fees on shipping (per my first point above) and possibly sales tax... I am not even sure. I am an engineer, not an accountant ;)

That night I did the only thing that made sense: I charged a battery and prepared my trusty TT-02/Porsche 911 RSR, the kit that sparked my comeback to RC a few years ago. I went out into the night and walked to the local tennis courts. They are lit :) so I setup my usual "test track" and drove it in anger for an hour. I live at the edge of the Sonoran desert and you sometimes have to be careful at night: I had forgotten my flashlight and on the walk back home I encountered 3 dingos that were crossing the road in front of me. They gave me a good scare but I the RC smile came back quickly as I reflected over what the hobby was all about for me. Drive, modify your car, test it and have fun doing it.

Now these are tough times for every hobbyist I am sure and so I realized that I would need to shrink my already small collection of RC vehicles in order to get the ones that remain to the level that I want. I will keep one on-road car and one rally car. And so other models, the ones I often think are "too TRF for me" will need to get sold. I promise that will take place here on TC, to fellow Tamiya enthusiasts and with a surprise goodie added right before closing the box!

That is all for now :) perhaps others here have felt like me before. We live in a world that depends on us consuming; that is understood. Some of today's most successful businesses like Uber and eBay are based on a large number of small people doing the leg work while they enforce the rule that the customer is king. That too is understood. But I am glad the few hurdles above helped me remember that the hobby is about building and driving cars more that shopping for them.

English is not my mother tongue, so if you made it to the bottom of the post: congratulations! And happy RC-ing everyone.

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I had mostly given up on buying from ebay, especially auctions. Even most BIN prices are more expensive than the online stores, probably due to the excessive fees you spoke of. However, every now and then, a true deal do pop up, usually in the form of sales or offers. For example, a few weeks ago, I got a kit for £110 while everywhere else sells it for at least £140.

As for selling on ebay, I had one done that for over a decade. 

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I know what you're referring to - I have tended to avoid selling on eBay recently, or I mark up the prices approximately 20% to account for the excessive fees charged. I have found Facebook Marketplace is (if you are happy to deal with low-ballers and timewasters) a much more cost effective tool for selling, especially as you can join groups specific to the item to really target your advertising.

I still buy a lot of new RCs on eBay - eBay plus membership gives me generous discounts and express shipping, and the convenience factor is very high.

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I can feel you. Its a real PITA.

1. Ebay tamiya  prices are incredibly steep for the buyer, sometimes nearly ridiculous. So far it makes me angry: 1000€ + for a kit or hundreds  for a vintage hop up. Its not the lottery.

2. BUT if i want to sell on e.g. 49097 ta03 alu c hubs that i bought for 55.- Plus 10.- shipping from a local hobby store in the neighbour country, then i have to put up a price of around 90.- In order not to Lose money in it (roughly, also not an accountant). And i havent earned anything then. So why the effort ? Thats why i Keep most things...  or put it up for 100.- and wait 2 years .

3. Things like marketplace are so annoying. The buyers there.... starting by asking "is it still available?" That already goes on my nerves and wastes my time. Make a sensible offer etc. . Its supposed to be available if its online. And if not, I will say so upon your offer. 1 message less. But it goes on like that... "im going to Pick it up today... " "sorry i didnt make it... tomorrow" ."sorry ill be 2 hrs late, is that a problem ? ..."  " i didnt know you had an appointment later." oops i forgot" ... "i dont need it anymore, my dog died" ... 

 

Urgh... 

 

Cheers

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I gave up selling on EBay when they started insisting that you pay them and not the seller, whilst at the same time demanding bank details (which of course includes a direct debit agreement with them that can take whatever fees they decide). Add to that the stress you get when someone wants something for nothing and it's just not worth the hassle. I just sell hobby stuff here on TC now. If I can't sell it here then it doesn't sell. And I've pretty much given up buying stuff for my hobby now, apart from raw materials such as aluminium bars and sheets to make things with when I can't find anything suitable in the stockpile, or the very occasional part from Ebay such as bolts

 

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I'm going to speak in defence of eBay.

Yes, it costs more than it used to. But in the UK it's 12.8% plus 30p, and if you are paying for extras in your listings you are a mug.

No idea why people think they need to try and charge more to "get their money back", buyers don't pay a premium to get something via eBay.

What you do get via eBay is a more-or-less guaranteed sale (as long as you aren't greedy) and quite a lot of protection.

Facebook marketplace is ok if you like endless messages from randoms. All the serious buyers are on eBay as well (will any Tamiyaclubber seriously admit they don't have saved searches for the items they want?). 

I still sell plenty on eBay and you get the market price. You may not think the "market price" is fair but I'm afraid the market disagrees with you.

If you want to list stuff for two years waiting for the right buyer them go for it. If I sell stuff I want rid of it, eBay auctions is still the best way to do that.

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I used to buy and sell all the time on Ebay, selling though lately has become so expensive that it's just not worth the hassle. I have a ton of old Tamiya stuff I'd like to see go to a good home, but it's just not worth the time.  I do FB marketplace and forum ads for now. 

Here in the US, we are also going to be getting the magic "$600 becomes income" taxes shortly (which is utter garbage...selling something you bought - how is that "income?? - especially selling at a loss!) I'm afraid that's going to just murder the secondhand market.  I know I'll for sure sell less once it takes effect. I'm prepping several crawler trucks for sale and hoping to clean up a bit before all this comes down. 

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2 minutes ago, OldSchoolRC1 said:

I used to buy and sell all the time on Ebay, selling though lately has become so expensive that it's just not worth the hassle. I have a ton of old Tamiya stuff I'd like to see go to a good home, but it's just not worth the time.  I do FB marketplace and forum ads for now. 

Here in the US, we are also going to be getting the magic "$600 becomes income" taxes shortly (which is utter garbage...selling something you bought - how is that "income?? - especially selling at a loss!) I'm afraid that's going to just murder the secondhand market.  I know I'll for sure sell less once it takes effect. I'm prepping several crawler trucks for sale and hoping to clean up a bit before all this comes down. 

The 600$ rule took effect on January 1st this year. You didn't know? That's because they forgot to tell you :). You will know when it's too late, after you just stepped on the landmine. I'm making it a bit dramatic 🤣 but it's basically as you said: it will hurt the second hand market.

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1 hour ago, sosidge said:

I'm going to speak in defence of eBay.

Yes, it costs more than it used to. But in the UK it's 12.8% plus 30p, and if you are paying for extras in your listings you are a mug.

No idea why people think they need to try and charge more to "get their money back", buyers don't pay a premium to get something via eBay.

What you do get via eBay is a more-or-less guaranteed sale (as long as you aren't greedy) and quite a lot of protection.

Facebook marketplace is ok if you like endless messages from randoms. All the serious buyers are on eBay as well (will any Tamiyaclubber seriously admit they don't have saved searches for the items they want?). 

I still sell plenty on eBay and you get the market price. You may not think the "market price" is fair but I'm afraid the market disagrees with you.

If you want to list stuff for two years waiting for the right buyer them go for it. If I sell stuff I want rid of it, eBay auctions is still the best way to do that.

I agree with all of that, with a few additional thoughts:

  1. roughly every fortnight eBay (UK) run a seller's fee promotion (70% off / 80% off / max £1 per item) so I only ever sell under these promotions. It takes some of the fee-pain away and helps keep pricing reasonable 
  2. you can price-to-sell, generally works best when there are other sellers with the same item and you can just undercut them to whatever level you feel comfortable
  3. or you can 'patience-price'. This is handy when you have bought something already at a premium (I seem to do this a lot, as per @GermanTA03Guy's example above) and you're more interested in covering / minimising your losses than pushing a quick sale. Just relist it each time the promo period runs out so you stay the right side of the fees. It's a little more effort, but time has taught me that everything sells in the end. I only ever use Buy It Now pricing, and include p&p. It seems clearer to everybody
  4. It's a Global Marketplace, a huge shop window for buying and selling. I sell globally, but only using the eBay Global Shipping Programme. Yes, it's expensive (sellers pay an extra premium, buyers pay postage prices that are clearly higher than 'direct' would be) but it massively reduces risk for both sides. I reckon 50% of my sales are overseas. If anyone asks for shipping to a country outside the GSP, it's a straight but polite "no". 
  5. Just as with life, and this dear community, most eBayers are decent, solid folks, but there are also the occasional few who can get in the sea. Just ignore them! I primarily patience-price, as I'm more interested in covering / minimising my costs, and that means I'm in no rush. Let the fools waste their own time, but they're not wasting mine
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27 minutes ago, Juhunio said:

roughly every fortnight eBay (UK) run a seller's fee promotion (70% off / 80% off / max £1 per item) so I only ever sell under these promotions. It takes some of the fee-pain away and helps keep pricing reasonable 

Sadly we don't have that here, instead some invited seller (I'm not part of the club so must be large volume sellers I suppose) can get an email with a 20$ fee cap for 200$+ items. Not exactly helpful of them.

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16 hours ago, Pylon80 said:

Sadly we don't have that here, instead some invited seller (I'm not part of the club so must be large volume sellers I suppose) can get an email with a 20$ fee cap for 200$+ items. Not exactly helpful of them.

That's a shame, the promotions are a massive incentive and definitely soften the blow of seller's fees

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On 8/16/2022 at 4:19 PM, OldSchoolRC1 said:

Here in the US, we are also going to be getting the magic "$600 becomes income" taxes shortly (which is utter garbage...selling something you bought - how is that "income?? - especially selling at a loss!) 

After the small amount of research I just did on this new law, it appears that while you will have to report online sales (using electronic payments) over $600 in a year, you won't necessarily have to pay tax on them. You only pay tax if you've made a profit, which seems fair enough. 

I can see how people might want to avoid another tax form (even if they wouldn't be liable for any more tax) but it looks like it only applies to electronic payments through apps like ebay and only if they are business payments, so cash and 'friends and family ' type payments are exempt, even if you make a profit...

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That's right, the IRS have Tamiya experts. They will look at your eBay account and say: "hmm the XV-01 universals are worth a lot less than that. You made a profit!"

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@rich_f it is quite possible that they would ask for a form to be submitted but in the end it wouldn't count as taxable income. At any rate, thank you for researching it.

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2 hours ago, Pylon80 said:

@rich_f it is quite possible that they would ask for a form to be submitted but in the end it wouldn't count as taxable income. At any rate, thank you for researching it.

The way I understood it is that you've always been required to send a form in when you sell things for profit - the difference now is that now you will get a 1099 from paypal or whoever automatically once you've met the $600 threshold (previously $20,000). 

3 hours ago, Pylon80 said:

That's right, the IRS have Tamiya experts. They will look at your eBay account and say: "hmm the XV-01 universals are worth a lot less than that. You made a profit!"

It's up to you to state whether the sales were at a loss when you file your returns, otherwise the IRS will consider it profit and therefore taxable. 

More info here https://www.nerdwallet.com/article/small-business/payment-app-taxes-form-1099k 

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Sold price is a recorded data point = ok. 
 

But you’ve sold stuff that wasn’t bought-in in the exact same state it got sold in, so how would you prove costbase on goods that you’ve either bought privately, owned for years, remade/upcycled/tarted up from old junk...

Far as taxman goes, if you haven’t got paper trail what your input costs are - he’ll consider it zero & now your sales receipt is taken as 100% gross profit :unsure:

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13 hours ago, WillyChang said:

Sold price is a recorded data point = ok. 
 

But you’ve sold stuff that wasn’t bought-in in the exact same state it got sold in, so how would you prove costbase on goods that you’ve either bought privately, owned for years, remade/upcycled/tarted up from old junk...

Far as taxman goes, if you haven’t got paper trail what your input costs are - he’ll consider it zero & now your sales receipt is taken as 100% gross profit :unsure:

Yeah, so you've got to keep all your paperwork...

It seems like in America, the amount of capital gains tax you are liable for depends on your total taxable income and not on how much profit you make, which seems silly and will discourage selling on places like ebay using anything other than cash. I was expecting to find a 'personal allowance' which is an amount of profit you can make without being liable for tax, but couldn't see one.

Here in the UK we can earn £6000 of profit on personal sales before being liable for any capital gains tax, which is plenty to cover the occasional profit-making sale on eBay. Plus the majority of us don't need to file our own taxes - it's all done automatically. I can't imagine what a pain that must be to do. 

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I think I'm going to follow a different strategy for a while - neither a buyer nor a seller be. I have plenty of stuff, including lots of half-finished or barely-begun projects that I was very excited about once upon a time. It seems to me that the best solution is to focus on what I have, and let the world of commerce turn without me.

Will it last? I don't know. I do know that the only time I feel compelled to buy more stuff is when I'm too busy to spend time in my workshop. When I'm surrounded by the hobby stuff I already own, it feels like enough, but sitting at my desk at work, I start daydreaming about RC (and other hobbies) and want to get something new. What this tells me is that I don't actually want more; I just want the feeling of being "active" in my hobbies when I'm away from them.

A more cynical and conspiratorial part of my brain thinks that this is exactly what the big capitalist machine wants - we're supposed to never have time to find deep satisfaction and fulfillment doing things we love, and instead settle for the quick serotonin rush of buying something new and shiny. After all, the whole system depends on all of us doing just that: earn, consume, repeat.

But I'm trying, I'm really trying, to get off that particular carnival ride. It's fun at first, but ride it long enough and it just makes you sick.

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@markbt73thank you for sharing your own thoughts. It's not a conspiracy theory at all that the world needs consumption and growth to function. And yes it's easy to get caught in the consumption spiral and taken away from the actual joy of the hobby itself. These topics come back regularly here on TC and some folks have written things that definitelyb helped me understand my own purchases patterns. I see several aspects:

- the hobby is immensely vast and that makes you want to own 15 cars right off the bat. Off course 15 cars is an impossible collection to run and maintain and if they were all to be hoped up to the max then it's 10-15k of assets...

- the marketing strategy is designed to make you buy things "before it gets discontinued" sometimes even pre-buy them. You give your money then you wait and eventually you get something you'll never build. How's that for consumption? Also you might buy 3 body sets because if the runner gets damaged you want to make a new one and then there's the shelf one that sacred -can't run it. In the end you might not even run that model and now you've taken money out of your accounts to fill up cabinets with boxes of potential joy.

This year I decided to restrict my collection to a total of 2 runners, hopped-up and setup to my liking and with 2 bodies total each. Everything else gets sold (here on TC hopefully) to finance these 2 cars. Once I have motors, ESCs, servos and hop-ups for both the consumption spiral should be broken! Will I succeed? That certainly seems like a challenge. 

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