Hop ups are a con? Discuss

[alvinlwh 5889]

Saw this video today. 

 

Agree? Disagree? Discuss away! 

For me, Tamiya is the Gillette of the RC world. Most of their kits are actually quite reasonable, but the price of their hop ups (in the UK) is absolutely ridiculous. If I can pick up some hop up bits from the far east, I will. If not it will probably be just the "big three". 

I just ordered a TA02 yesterday and when doing the research on that chassis, saw a video from this same guy putting in the carbon chassis. The hop up kit costs as much as the base kit price, and actually increased the overall weight! For the total price, I am sure I can buy a better or as least as good as chassis from another brand, and still have change. 

[Nikko85 3439]

Not really a con, people know what they are paying for, and that getting a blingly blue Tamiya will be very expensive. 

A rip-off? In some way, yes. However often these items may have a high production cost and they don't sell that many, so it's hard to know what the mark up is. 

I would say improvement per cost - most aren't really worth it or have no actual difference. But people want shiny and cool.

However given that people pay actually money to buy "rare" items for games such as Fortnight which are digital items that cost nothing to produce - then it's not so bad really..

 

[alvinlwh 5889]

8 minutes ago, Nikko85 said:

However given that people pay actually money to buy "rare" items for games such as Fortnight which are digital items that cost nothing to produce - then it's not so bad really..

I am probably too old to understand the point of that. In fact, I am only recently warming to the idea of digital game distribution, without an actual disc. 

[Nikko85 3439]

44 minutes ago, alvinlwh said:

I am probably too old to understand the point of that. In fact, I am only recently warming to the idea of digital game distribution, without an actual disc. 

Yes, me too. I did buy an X box series X digital only, and I kinda regret it, as I can't buy anything second hand, and have no interest in paying £40 for most games.

[Pylon80 2618]

If we are discussing actual performance improvement, that could be measured at least in theory as improved lap time, then there are probably very few hop ups that are really worth it. There are many examples:

- motor mounts: hidden once installed anyway and the stock one only really cracks when you overtighten the motor screws. Heatsink effect if non-existent as the mount is hidden under a cover (there's nowhere for the heat to go)

- servo arms: try to bend a plastic one by hand then tell me that, yes, it bend while you drive and it ruins your accuracy... Therefore you need the stiffness of a metal one 🤣

- those gorgeous TRF socks: the plastic CVA work so well, how many people really benefit from the aluminum ones? Yes they have bezels to find tune the ride height but again how many can tell 5.2mm from 5mm while driving?

- Steering bridges: all we need are bearings on the plastic one to get rid of the slop. Aluminum not needed.

- Toe-in rear uprights: angled plastic ones would do. M-05 owners might understand

And the list goes on. All this coming from someone with to much money expanded on genuine Tamiya blue bits. They do look good. And they are part of the hobby. Needed? Probably not.

[Gebbly 587]

I would say definitely not a scam. Scam implies either the standard kit is not fit for purpose without the hop-ups or that customers dont know what they are getting with the hop-ups I dont think either is the case. A standard kit without hop-ups will give someone a great deal of fun and should last. This means the base price of a fully functional kit is lower than if the hop ups were included from the start.

If someone wants to spend more money to tailor their kit then the option is there. It is very clear what the hop-up is and the price and it is completely optional.

When it comes to a product like a model kit or Tamiya RC car a large amount of the fun (for me) is the building of the kit. I love the idea of a few months after the car is built I could buy a hop up, take the car back to the garage and fettle and tweak it to install something new. It means the construction element of owning the RC car is a lot longer lasting which I love.

Also, a lot of people like to think their car is a little unique. People like to paint their own designs on the bodies or even have completely different bodies and part of this is each person choosing which hop-ups if any they want to install on their own car. For example I had great fun building my GF-01 but for my particular car I added in 2 or 3 hop ups (like the servo lowering arm to try and lower the center of gravity a little) and got some spares to widen the track.

[J@mes 2326]

1 minute ago, Pylon80 said:

 

- those gorgeous TRF socks

Ooh I like the sound of those, with a matching bag? 

[alvinlwh 5889]

@Gebbly while I broadly agree with you, there are a number of equivalent kits from other makers that for the same or lower price, provides much more adjustments out of box. One example that I have experience of is the M-05 vs 3Racing'S MG Evo. In fact it has so much adjustments that I don't know what to do with them at first (I am relatively a RC noob). 

[Pablo68 1049]

Well it depends what the hop up is I guess. The blue blingy stuff is nice but I generally don't go in for it, at least I don't if it adds nothing but bling.
I have a Monster Beetle and I have a Blitzer Beetle, I've put Tamiya Aeration shocks on both, transforms the chassis's. They technically aren't hop ups for those models, but I bought them and put them on anyway.

Not sure If I'm answering the OP adequately.

[Willy iine 18804]

It's only a con if the builder is kidding themselves.   

 

[Juhunio 6830]

A con? As in a deception, swindle or trick?

Clearly not, that’s just nonsense. 

They are what they say they are; no-one is being had. 

They’re also entirely optional, so no-one’s being forced into anything against their will or better judgement.  

Are they possibly over priced relative to value, be that aesthetic or performance based? That’s entirely in the eye of the (wallet) beholder. But to describe them as a ‘con’ is utter bobbins 

 

 

[Juls1 1660]

Having done many deep pocket full bling builds over the years, what I’ve learnt is genuine tamiya parts are generally the best hopups if you plan to actually use the car.

there is however plenty of aftermarket parts that beyond a shelf queen are a con or scam. Many of the worst offenders are still in business but in recent years have improved especially with company’s like yeah racing and 3 racing improving their quality in recent times creating competition in the aftermarket for parts that actually work. 
 

but none of them are even today are tamiya quality, with the performance and reliability. They are expensive for a reason. 
 

Do we need them? Probably not… want them? Yep! Is that a scam? Only if the part isn’t fit for purpose.. and they are still about sadly. 

[Pylon80 2618]

1 hour ago, J@mes said:

Ooh I like the sound of those, with a matching bag? 

This one is for you @J@mes and helluva deal too 😉

[alvinlwh 5889]

1 minute ago, Pylon80 said:

This one is for you @J@mes and helluva deal too 😉

 

Don't laugh, I have something like that, got it for free when shopping at the Tamiya dealer/showroom in Singapore where they use it as a shopping bag.

[toyolien 4658]

I love hop ups. I don't feel like I'm being conned. I would rather have 3 or 4 nicely hopped up cars, than 10 that were all plastic out of the box. Each to their own though.

However, one might suggest that headlines like in the RCKicks video above is purely 'click bait'. 

[bRIBEGuy 3033]

2 hours ago, alvinlwh said:

Saw this video today.  Agree? Disagree? Discuss away! 

For me, Tamiya is the Gillette of the RC world. Most of their kits are actually quite reasonable, but the price of their hop ups (in the UK) is absolutely ridiculous. If I can pick up some hop up bits from the far east, I will. If not it will probably be just the "big three". 

I just ordered a TA02 yesterday and when doing the research on that chassis, saw a video from this same guy putting in the carbon chassis. The hop up kit costs as much as the base kit price, and actually increased the overall weight! For the total price, I am sure I can buy a better or as least as good as chassis from another brand, and still have change. 

I used to quite like the RC Kicks stuff, but I feel like lately it's just getting a bit click-baity.  Lots of stirring the pot just for the sake of stirring the pot.

Hop Ups are always expensive.  Heck, everything is expensive.  BUT..... Injection moulded composites have their cost primarily dumped up front, where as cut/formed/cnc parts have their cost continually perpetuating.

An example: An OEM kit component is injection molded.  The mold tooling is very expensive, but once completed, can pump out parts 24/7 for literally pennies.  A pound of ABS pellets is ~$2-3 retail.... wholesale is much less.  A well designed mold can last almost indefinitely, with very little maintenance, and at the quantities of kits that Tamiya is making, will pay itself off very quickly.  The running cost of an injection molded part is almost nil, and the machine spits out a finished product.  There is also very little material waste.

Now, a Tamiya aluminum option part has a number of strikes against it, comparatively.  While the part design cost may be similar, the initial tooling cost will be lower.  The fixtures required for machining, will be cheaper than an injection mould, but there will still be costs.  The material cost however will be MUCH higher, and this will continue to increase as material quality does.  Most people just look for "aluminum", but there is a big difference (in material properties AND cost) between 7075, 6061, or unspecified alloys.  Most of these machined parts will require all sides to be finished, which means the part has to be moved and re-fixtured at least once.  Afterwards some additional finishing work may be required (tumbling, etc), before anodizing, which is yet another process.  In some cases, another round of CNC work is done after anodizing.  Each step here has a static cost that will not decrease over time.  Additionally, as this is typically a stock removal process, there is significant waste... the final part may represent only a small fraction of the initial material cost.  So any non-injection moulded parts maintain a MUCH higher cost to produce (and a cost that does not decrease.

There has been much negativity around the pricing of the TA02 carbon upgrade kit, and I agree it seems bonkers in relation to the kit price.  But again, you have to remember that there is more to the story than just a price tag.  A TA02 might have $5 worth of injection molded plastic in it.  A carbon upgrade kit has significantly more cost than that in the CF plate material, and then requires significant machine time (CNC/waterjet/laser).  It additionally has aluminum parts AND injection molded components too.  Do I like that it's an upgrade worth more than the car it goes on?  No.  But I think it is justified. As for weight... who cares?  Upgrade or Option doesn't have to mean lighter... the chassis kit could be stiffer, more durable, or just look better...


 

1 hour ago, Nikko85 said:

Not really a con, people know what they are paying for, and that getting a blingly blue Tamiya will be very expensive. 

A rip-off? In some way, yes. However often these items may have a high production cost and they don't sell that many, so it's hard to know what the mark up is. 

I would say improvement per cost - most aren't really worth it or have no actual difference. But people want shiny and cool.

However given that people pay actually money to buy "rare" items for games such as Fortnight which are digital items that cost nothing to produce - then it's not so bad really..

 

 

19 minutes ago, Willy iine said:

It's only a con if the builder is kidding themselves.   

 

Yup, I think both those posts sum it up nicely.   

Us wanting parts to be cheaper doesn't make them a rip off or a scam.  A Ferrari might not be remotely obtainable for most people, but that doesn't mean it's not a better car made from more expensive materials than a Honda Civic.  

Do I wish I could make things blingier for less money?  Of course.  But the price is the price, and no one us forcing us to "hop up" our toys.  It's just part of the fun.

Just my 2 cents...

[Willy iine 18804]

One thing I wish is if they can make the aluminum parts NOT so blingy... I mean I spend a lot of time on the bodies and when I introduce clashing light blues and violets peeking through the wheel wells, it loses focus of the entire car's theme.

 

 

[Busdriver 6209]

8 minutes ago, Willy iine said:

One thing I wish is if they can make the aluminum parts NOT so blingy... I mean I spend a lot of time on the bodies and when I introduce clashing light blues and violets peeking through the wheel wells, it loses focus of the entire car's theme.

 

 

Couldn’t agree more. I bought the YR suspension upgrade kit for my CC01 when I knew no better. Whoever put blue suspension arms on an Landrover or a Jeep. Straight aluminium or black would be ok but not blue. I still have it and it still bothers me!!!

[alvinlwh 5889]

11 minutes ago, bRIBEGuy said:

I used to quite like the RC Kicks stuff, but I feel like lately it's just getting a bit click-baity.  Lots of stirring the pot just for the sake of stirring the pot.

Click bait or not, there are some truth to what he says, just need to filter the noise from the rest. For example, recently I posted about inflation, cost of living and spending. He touched on it on another video, although buried somewhere in the middle. 

 

Like I said, I came cross the first video as a follow on to his video about the carbon TA02 hopup (YouTube auto play) and it just got me thinking. TA02 £130, carbon hop up £120, total £250. I am almost certain better cars can be had for less than that. 

Now, don't get me wrong, I still buy Tamiya, had been a fan for decades, just that I will probably stay mostly stock from now on unless I am buying hop up from the far east. In fact I am planing to enter that TA02 into the silver can rally build challenge with just bearings and steel pinion upgrades. 

[alvinlwh 5889]

As I said in my OP, I feel that Tamiya is the Gillette of the RC world. Their kits are relatively cheap. In fact. I just told my wife that the TT01 Subaru I bought 12 years ago seems to be the same or even cheaper now with its rere. Prices of hop up on the other hand seem to have gone through the roof. 

[Nikko85 3439]

39 minutes ago, Willy iine said:

One thing I wish is if they can make the aluminum parts NOT so blingy... I mean I spend a lot of time on the bodies and when I introduce clashing light blues and violets peeking through the wheel wells, it loses focus of the entire car's theme.

 

 

Yes. I can't stand the Tamiya anodized blue.

[Frog Jumper 3656]

1 minute ago, Nikko85 said:

Yes. I can't stand the Tamiya anodized blue.

^^^this

[bRIBEGuy 3033]

28 minutes ago, alvinlwh said:

Click bait or not, there are some truth to what he says, just need to filter the noise from the rest.

Oh, I absolutely agree.  What I meant was more that there has been a shift in his content... something that seems fairly common when someone transitions over time from "Youtube for fun" to "Youtube for Career". 
 

20 minutes ago, alvinlwh said:

As I said in my OP, I feel that Tamiya is the Gillette of the RC world. Their kits are relatively cheap. In fact. I just told my wife that the TT01 Subaru I bought 12 years ago seems to be the same or even cheaper now with its rere. Prices of hop up on the other hand seem to have gone through the roof. 

Kits with primarily injection molded bits will be able to remain more static in cost compared to CNC bits which see much greater rises in material/labor charges over time.

 

1 minute ago, Nikko85 said:

Yes. I can't stand the Tamiya anodized blue.

I like it in certain contexts... but some other options would be great.

[GTodd 1341]

I haven’t watched his video yet but will shortly. Hop ups in my opinion are a “con” when they are items that should’ve been on the car in the first place. It’s been an issue since at least the late 80s when I was a kid and Tamiya jumped into the racing scene. I’m not sure how I got hooked on them but I did. I wanted an Astute and got one . I quickly compared it with my friends RC10 and the glaring issues were there: why did my supposedly race ready Astute come with: plastic shocks, bushings, and no turn buckles? Stuff my buddies RC10s didn’t deal with. 
 

But it’s not limited to their “race stuff”, why in the heck does the HUGE clod buster have plastic bushings? 
 

etc etc, that’s when a hop up is a con, when it’s an option to something that should be standard.

[alvinlwh 5889]

2 minutes ago, GTodd said:

etc etc, that’s when a hop up is a con, when it’s an option to something that should be standard.

In that case, the hop ups are not a con as they did improve on what they replaced, but rather the base kit are a con, forcing you to spend more to get it to perform properly! 😉