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alvinlwh

Hop ups are a con? Discuss

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16 minutes ago, bRIBEGuy said:

Kits with primarily injection molded bits will be able to remain more static in cost compared to CNC bits which see much greater rises in material/labor charges over time.

I think the move of factory to Philippines has an influence on reducing the cost of manufacturing. 

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1 hour ago, Busdriver said:

Couldn’t agree more. I bought the YR suspension upgrade kit for my CC01 when I knew no better. Whoever put blue suspension arms on an Landrover or a Jeep. Straight aluminium or black would be ok but not blue. I still have it and it still bothers me!!!

Yeah, I even painted my wheelie bar silver to rid the light blue..  the blue clashed with my entire car!

IMG_Sep272021at123553PM.jpg.ea6865068f582fcfce4c5f55ca1ac6ed.jpg

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Ive always wondered in what configuration a ta03 is the fastest... whether its full hop ups or lightest weight etc. Etc. . Preferably tested by a pro (e.g. MR33 ;) under comparable circumstances on a circuit... 

What i do know is this weight difference, which doesnt let the hopup shine.  Its not the whole Story though, as the caster is also different, and you can use it to Balance the weight Bias of the chassis. Bad thing is though,  in this case it is unsprung weight... what you also see is the massive difference of the hopup alu balls.

dxebu.jpg

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.. 

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If your racing then I don't think all the parts are a con when some make a difference to performance on track. For example, reinforced plastics that are more durable and increase your chances of completing a race (you can't win if you don't finish), or CF parts that increases stiffness (which you'll probably be looking for on high grip surfaces).

The TRF dampers are a good example, they are way more consistent and adjustable compared to a CVA, last longer between rebuilds as well as being a lot stronger. I've popped plenty of caps off of CVAs and bent plenty of shafts over the years, but I've never managed it on a TRF damper.

I think the cheap 3rd party hopups are a con - they are cheap but performance will often be worse that with the stock part, they might look appealing but I've had bits from JazRider and GPM that have been manufactured to appalling tolerances.

The Tamiya hopups that annoy me are those essential ones that should have been included in the box, like the metal crossjoints for the mini lunchbox!

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On shelfers, over time I submit to the blue crack addiction. 

Cars I use for competition, normally I go for functional upgrades versus looks

I categorise them as follows

1. Drive line - if you have a TT car, you definitely will need drive line hop ups down the road. TA /TB cars you can go pretty far with the dog bones. If you start competition then CVDs are a better choice not just for performance, but headache.. eg you’re going to break a suspension part and then will have to hunt for the dog bone 

2. steering: The hop up doesn’t always do away with the slop.. eg TT, M chassis etc. so the stock plastic can be shimmed to take the slop. As someone mentioned earlier, some also allow for bearings. So I’d say not necessary.

3. Servo mount: older kits had some pretty solid plastic servo mounts, so no need. New kits like TA08 and XV02 have lots of flex. So yeah I’d say it’s needed

4. Front / Rear uprights - I prefer the plastic ones because a solid hit and you’ve bent the aluminium, but you won’t know it. Also for M chassis and TT the tolerance for the bearings is poor, lots of slop

5. carbon Suspension towers - not needed unless your are competing

6. Wheel Hex - I recommend for no headache wheel changes.. those pesky cross pins love to fall out

7. Dampers - plastic oil filled are generally pretty good. The adjustable collars on TRF are nice for adjusting ride height.. but you can opt for Yeah Racing for less. 

8. Hex ball ends and open cups- absolutely a good investment. The first time you try to remove a cup from pretty blue ones, they will scratch. The ball end will also have markings. The open eye let with Hex.. very nice and clean. 

 

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6 hours ago, Busdriver said:

Couldn’t agree more. I bought the YR suspension upgrade kit for my CC01 when I knew no better. Whoever put blue suspension arms on an Landrover or a Jeep. Straight aluminium or black would be ok but not blue. I still have it and it still bothers me!!!

 

5 hours ago, Nikko85 said:

Yes. I can't stand the Tamiya anodized blue.

 

5 hours ago, Frog Jumper said:

^^^this

I agree for most builds but sometimes they are just what’s needed (in my opinion)…

Jimny

 

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9 hours ago, Nikko85 said:

Not really a con, people know what they are paying for, and that getting a blingly blue Tamiya will be very expensive. 

A rip-off? In some way, yes. However often these items may have a high production cost and they don't sell that many, so it's hard to know what the mark up is. 

I would say improvement per cost - most aren't really worth it or have no actual difference. But people want shiny and cool.

However given that people pay actually money to buy "rare" items for games such as Fortnight which are digital items that cost nothing to produce - then it's not so bad really..

 

This is the scourge of the new generation. My kids do their chores and normally do extra help on the weekends and their money almost always goes on digital skins and items. Seems insane to me but they actually get more pleasure out of it than most other things they would spend a few bucks on.

The digital lucky dip that EA employ seriously needs to be sorted out though. I can understand why governments are starting to label them as gambling and are looking to regulate. 
 

I used to play Madden. A lot! I was really good and did well internationally but then ultimate team came along and it just became a race to buy the best squads. That’s when I stopped playing. 

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41 minutes ago, GeeWings said:

ultimate team came along and it just became a race to buy the best squads

Pay to win in other words. 

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7 hours ago, alvinlwh said:

Pay to win in other words. 

Yep. I used to be competition standard but once MUT came along I just couldn’t compete. 

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It can be seen from the various responses above that some people love to totally bling out their shelf queens, some want the purist cars without any bling, some dont like certain colours, some want weight reducing hop-ups, or perhaps all performance enhancing hop-ups,  for some  the anodised blue is a good aesthetic addition to their car. There are many reasons to use hop-ups and a vast number of combinations, especially when you consider a car like the GF-01 that can fit hop-ups from so many different kits which ones would you include in the base box? From several different business decision stand points it makes the most sense to produce a base kit with enough parts to make a functional and reasonable quality kit and then offer options to those who want to spend a premium. I'm a fan of the huge amount of customisation that is possible.

The argument that other manufacturers produce base kits with more options at a lower price, I feel, is a slightly different issue. That seems more of a discussion of the overall pricing strategy of Tamiya. However it has always been the case that the biggest names in a market with the best reputations will charge a premium for that fact. There are many mobile phones that do exactly what Samsung and Apple do and they are cheaper yet Samsung and Apple still dominate the market. Until I rejoined the hobby recently and started reading these forums I was only aware of 2 types of RC car, prebuilt low quality cars you get in the local toy shops and Tamiya RC kits. This allows Tamiya to charge a premium based on their name. I often hear opinions of Tamiya being some of the best quality kits or offering the greatest range of modification. One thing I read a lot is that Tamiya kits always offer the best instructions. I never really thought much on instruction manuals until I became good friends with a guy in the same software company as me whos sole job was to write the instruction manuals that went with our software. It was a really fiddly taxing job and it suddenly occured to me that all these companies employ technical authors to produce these manuals and someone has to pay their salary. Things like that all cost money so they add it to their prices.

Its interesting that the discussions here fairly accurately mirror opinions when it comes to 1:1 cars. For example a standard BMW doesnt come with much "kit" they have a LOT of optional extras which cost extra and even their base cars are more expensive than a lot of other cars that have the kit bundled in. Yet a lot of people buy them, heck I own a beemer. When I got mine I went down the list of extras and tailored the car to exactly my requirements.

Would I buy another Tamiya? Absolutely. I am aware there may be a price premium for their product but I am happy to pay it for the huge amount of modification possible, the product quality, the great amount of info out there and groups like TamiyaClub and yes to some extent the nostalgia and the fact that it makes me feel like a kid again working on my Hotshot many years ago.

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I disagree, It's not really a con when you aren't forced into buying them. Tamiya could just as easily sell stock kits with no hop-ups and would stay in business, for a lot of people in the tamiya side of the hobby it's just an extra element that they get enjoyment out of. Building the base kit first then hunting down the hop-ups and adding them is fun at the end of the day, and that's what this hobby is supposed to be about. Yes they can be expensive, but if they weren't they wouldn't be as 'special' and I don't think people would get the same enjoyment/satisfaction out of them. I find that Tamiya kits get a bad rep for being too fragile and too expensive but they really aren't, out of the box you would struggle to break anything, it's only when people put ridiculous low turn motors in and send them off jumps comparing them to traxxas etc that they will have a problem, and tamiya has never advertised their kits like that.

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11 hours ago, GeeWings said:

I agree for most builds but sometimes they are just what’s needed (in my opinion)…

Jimny

 

Yes, what I meant to say is that I can't stand that it's blue, as it just doesn't work with so many colour schemes.

Raw aluminium would look so much nicer on all my builds than shiny blue. 

But I'm happy with plastic so that's ok..

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Yet another very interesting question! Coincidentally I was talking to a work colleague about the impending doom that we are all going to face when this years sun decides its had enough of the UK and disappears to the other side of the world and we have to put our heating back on (according to the media) and he was talking about his grandchildren on these video games buy "skins"! I obviously didn't have a clue what he was talking about? But long story short you can pay a shed load of money for something which is completely virtual and its potentially endless in monetary terms? And it made me think I do buy hop-ups but only if they have a definite performance benefit eg: hi-caps for the topforce, bearings, upgrade transmission for schumacher (although its expensive and why they just couldn't include it in kits and charge a bit more for the kit? But I think we all know why) and sometimes I do feel a little guilty when I've purchased hop-ups because I'm not a die hard club racer anymore so the light abuse my buggies get fall well into the design of whatever buggy I'm using! But my spenditure on actually parts for my buggies pails into insignificants when you look at that virtual stuff:wacko:

But to say are they all a con is a bit unfair!  yes some of the so called hop-ups are a bit dubious but who I'm I to say what I think is a waste of money someone may think it's the best thing on his/her's buggies? Again by sheer coincidence just this morning I was watching Rckicks (like @alvinlwh has put up) were gavin is building a schumacher cat xls with every single option part for it and saying weather its worth it or not! Very interesting actually and worth a watch;) my xls is completely standard with not one hop-up on it at all 

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7 minutes ago, moffman said:

Coincidentally I was talking to a work colleague about the impending doom

Yes, if you look at one of my post/question a few weeks ago, it is also in relation to this "impending doom", about inflation and spending. I swear Gavin (RCkicks) read this forum as not long after that post, he uploaded a video touching on that subject. And then I saw a video on how a hop up that cost as much as the base kit actually made the car heavier followed by this video that got me thinking. 

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1 hour ago, Gebbly said:

Its interesting that the discussions here fairly accurately mirror opinions when it comes to 1:1 cars. For example a standard BMW

I will not compare Tamiya to a BMW, more like a Toyota/Honda, performance or price wise. Good and affordable enough for general consumer but not performance grade. I had not been in the RC game for long enough to figure out the equivalent of BMW in RC is yet, Kyosho maybe? 

A side note, I had been in the static world for decades and had been a Tamiya fan there as I am not that demanding (see the general consumer comment above), they are easy to build, good enough for general display. However there are other brands that are have far better and more accurate details (rivet counting and measuring) which I sometimes get, but they harder to work on. Now, for the static world, surprisingly, many of these better kits are actually new brands from China or Korea and are cheaper than Tamiya and offers more. 

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1 hour ago, alvinlwh said:

more like a Toyota/Honda, performance or price wise

I'm not suggesting any particular quality comparison between the 2 companies more that the weight of the company name and its business model is very similar. A well known name that sells a base car without extras when compared to competitors and charges more for those extras yet people still buy them. And of course raises the same debates in the 1:1 world regarding price of base models and whether or not the extras should be included as standard or if the "extras" business model is a rip-off, which is where we started.

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I have a bit of mixed feelings with regards to hop-ups.  I will preface this by saying that I don't knock anyone for the amount of extras they decide to put on their rides.  I consider RC more like expressive art.  Just like body colors, livery or themes and decal placement are all subjective to what a person finds appealing.

 

That said, I think Tamiya has a knack for providing a basic kit which can be somewhat transformed by  hop-up options into a car with a different personality.  Just recently, I picked up my first DT-02 chassis.  Decent entry-level 2wd fun with accommodating entry-level fit and finish.  At the present time, it's more along the lines of a DT-02MS thanks to quite a few option parts.  The performance is quite a bit different, more taught and solid.  CVDs, aeration dampers, adjustable turnbuckles (and a more aggressive castor angle) and a ball differential had the biggest effect on this.  The cost was reasonable (for my location).

I have a recently released Kyosho Turbo Optima Mid.  While hop-up parts such as CVDs, carbon kits, anti-sway bars (which should have been included at the kit price) just didn't appeal to me.  I'm pleased with how the car performs as it is, and the kit was rather expensive for me.  Once I priced the option parts, I realized that I was in similar territory to purchasing a Team Associated B74.  In this case, I felt it didn't quite make sense for me.

 

To each their own, I say.  I'm just glad we have different ways to enjoy our hobby and customize when we feel the urge to do so or refrain from doing so and simply enjoy what we have.

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I really, really like hop-ups. They're a perfect way for me to make a new kit my own, and, while I love Tamiyas and understand the what the factory's goals are, I want a little bit more.

The hop-ups that improve the "quality" of the kit are probably the ones I use the most. Things like hex hardware, low-friction step screws, reinforced adjusters, balls, nicer turnbuckles - the stuff that makes the kit all around nicer and easier to work on. Sometimes they enhance durability or performance; sometimes not.

The "durability" hop-ups, usually drive line or suspension upgrades, get sprinkled on as needs dictate. There's no need for aluminum suspension mounts on a chassis that only sees street duty with a silver can, and it probably isn't going to ruin standard diff joints very quickly, either, while a Super Avante with a good motor needs metal bevel gears for acceptable durability.

"Performance" is where it gets sticky. Everyone wants something different, and chassis performance changes with power levels. I like CVDs, swaybars, slippers, aluminum shocks, steering upgrades - I often go overboard on frequent runners and make some of my own stuff. Adding adjustability is fun, too.

Shiny bits are dangerous. It's always fun to make your chassis look awesome and gets expensive fast. Just look at my trail rigs. Often decreases performance and durability, too. Doesn't mean that I'm going to stop, either.

BITD, the Losi JRX-2 was the first car on the market to not require any hop-ups to be durable and competitive. Prior to it's release, everything needed quite a bit of work to perform well and make it through an afternoon on the track. Even the RC10 came with threaded rod instead of turnbuckles, hokey steering and other flaws; the JRX-2 even had good tires in the box.

ALL cars needed something, so there was a lot of innovation and nobody's cars were the same. Aftermarket transmissions, 4WD conversions, suspension conversions, just tons of cool stuff. I always enjoyed that side of the hobby, too.

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On 8/20/2022 at 2:38 AM, bRIBEGuy said:

I used to quite like the RC Kicks stuff, but I feel like lately it's just getting a bit click-baity.  Lots of stirring the pot just for the sake of stirring the pot.

Anyone else keep getting distracted by the shiny Sub on his wrist? :lol:^_^

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Tamiya kits are “RC ala carte” imho, I’m free to hopup much as I fancy. 

kitbox parts are just placeholders for future hopups, whilst waiting for their delivery :P 

 

11 hours ago, Killajb said:

have a recently released Kyosho Turbo Optima Mid.  While hop-up parts such as CVDs, carbon kits, anti-sway bars (which should have been included at the kit price) just didn't appeal to me.  I'm pleased with how the car performs as it is, and the kit was rather expensive for me.  Once I priced the option parts, I realized that I was in similar territory to purchasing a Team Associated B74.  In this case, I felt it didn't quite make sense for me.

Mid ‘22 is a hash between base spec & Turbo, not full on Turbo spec 

Yeah it got ex real quick :ph34r:

Latest Kyosho RRPs have also jumped heaps since chaindrive Optima series from 6yrs back. 

But it’s not just them, Yokomo has recently increased their parts tag prices & retrospectively too. 

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Hop ups is a con if sold separately and not include them as standard in higher variants like the Pro & R versions. Of course the TRF and EVO lines are usually packed with hop ups. It is also a con because of the ridiculous prices that Tamiya is offering to its loyal clients (almost all of us). Aftermarket brands such as Yeah Racing and 3Racing offers the same hop ups (some even designed and made better), are priced 50-60% off compared to Tamiya. Although many believe that hop-ups are just bling, they are not. These parts have important roles/purposes and make the kits perform better, make them sturdier, and of course look nicer.

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In general, I don't find hop-ups to be a con per-se. If a kit comes ill-equipped with bushings, friction shocks, etc. and is not inexpensive to match, then I find the kit not to be a good value and would move on. As long as the vehicle price is in line with how its equipped, I don't see any following hop-ups to be a con. You get what you pay for. If someone want's to buy a poorly equipped car at a "too-high" price point and then dump loads into hop-ups, that's their prerogative.

What I will protest is cars that don't function properly out-of-the-box without attention. I dearly love ORV monster trucks, but just about everybody has trouble with the drive train in some shape or form. The re-re Blackfoot could be someone's first RC (perhaps one they lusted after since their youth and now finally get a chance to own) and I don't think its fair to spend that kind of money and have they stock vehicle experience durability issues when driven within its limits, three packs in. As Tamiya fans, we all know the tricks and fixes but to a newcomer, finding out you might have to dump $60 more into a ball diff and/or use fixes that aren't even from Tamiya is expecting too much in my opinion. The internet helps as a knowledge base for such issues, but should it have to? Shouldn't a Blackfoot run properly out-of-the-box with the kit motor? What about newer designs like the TD4 and TT02B? While I have no personal experience, there seems to be issues with those gears at times too. Many these problems aren't Juggernaut sized but I don't feel hop-ups should be a necessity to enjoy a stock kit for a reasonable amount of time. 

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59 minutes ago, Saito2 said:

I dearly love ORV monster trucks, but just about everybody has trouble with the drive train in some shape or form.

I literally just built a Frog to roller stage and boy, it has to be the worst Tamiya chassis I had ever built. However given its age, and for the retro/BITD experience, I am willing to get over that. What I cannot forgive is it is impossible to build it to the toe in according to the instructions as the steering rods and/or steering rods end are too short! Well, it is kind of possible, but the rods will get ripped out at any bumps. 

1 hour ago, Saito2 said:

but to a new comer ... use fixes that aren't even from Tamiya is expecting too much in my opinion.

Yes! This Frog was intended to be my wife's first ever RC build but after scanning the manual, I decided against it, but that is not against Tamiya. The problem I have is there are not official Tamiya steering turnbuckle fix to the rod problem I described above, and if it was indeed her first build, she will have no idea how to fix it. I also think standard/modern sized steering rod ends cannot fit the Frog and I need to source smaller ones, something that a beginner will not know. 

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2 hours ago, alvinlwh said:

I literally just built a Frog to roller stage and boy, it has to be the worst Tamiya chassis I had ever built.

Perspective... The ORV is my favorite bc of the idiosyncrasies.

My favorite part of this hobby is modding stuff, making it better or more to my taste.  The ORV lends itself to all kinds of creative projects.  (On a side note, I’m thinking of getting a TT02 next as it’s a jack-of-all-trades like the ORV, just modern.)

Anyways, I have four ORVs in my stable, and none of them are the same.  My Black Ranger is most true to a Frog, as it was my Frog Jumper before I added a BF body.  My others are a Bush Devil (heavily modified), my daughters BarbieFoot (half Frog half BF), and a half-finished Sassy Chassis Frog.  Collecting the various parts, or making my own, and then modding the ORVs to these configurations has been the greatest joy in this hobby for me.

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12 minutes ago, Frog Jumper said:

Perspective... The ORV is my favorite bc of the idiosyncrasies.

My favorite part of this hobby is modding stuff, making it better or more to my taste.  The ORV lends itself to all kinds of creative projects.  (On a side note, I’m thinking of getting a TT02 next as it’s a jack-of-all-trades like the ORV, just modern.)

Anyways, I have four ORVs in my stable, and none of them are the same.  My Black Ranger is most true to a Frog, as it was my Frog Jumper before I added a BF body.  My others are a Bush Devil (heavily modified), my daughters BarbieFoot (half Frog half BF), and a half-finished Sassy Chassis Frog.  Collecting the various parts, or making my own, and then modding the ORVs to these configurations has been the greatest joy in this hobby for me.

With the topic of this thread in mind, hop-ups are absolutely necessary for the ORV.  Bearings straight away, but every component can be improved in one way or another, or in some cases many different way depending on driving conditions, type of car being built, etc.

A prime example is the front suspension.  The Frog has internal front springs built into the chassis.  A plunger works these and provides “dampening”.  Tamiya took these out and replaced them with large shocks and tower for their Blackfoot.  Parma, CRP, and a few others made several different shocks including a mono-shock (Parma).  Different types and lengths of shock towers were designed or homemade.  It wasn’t (and still isn’t) a matter of buying a hop-up and bolting it in place of its plastic predecessor.  It takes modeling skills, creativity, luck, and an awareness of engineering and physics and math.

Like I said, it’s the fun part for me.

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