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I decided to convert my rally car to brushless (it is all your fault @wtcc5 ;)) and I found a brand new TBLM-02S at a fair price, in 17.5t. I was wondering what the general opinion was on whether going with a sensored or a sensorless ESC. My understanding is that the motor will be usable with both. Now, for rally driving will I hugely benefit from a sensored ESC or will it be barely noticeable?

A quick search on regular :D RC forums returned a lot of "nah you don't need it" and "bro... you need it".

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I wouldn’t even think about not buying a sensored ESC, it’s just so smooooth compared to jerky stuttery takeoffs 

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I have the TBLM/TBLE combo in one of my cars.  Smooth as silk.  I have a sensorless in another. Good for bashing full tilt.

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I am a „sensored-only“ guy too.

Yes, you don’t need it for bashing around in the dirt, but I could imagine you thinking about a sensored esc every time you accelerate from zero, when for half a second nothing happens and then the car stutters in motion.

In the german Tamiya Euro Cup series we have to race an unsensored combo and it is unpleasant to drive. You just recognize, that the esc cannot control the motor properly without the sensor information. Every input is a bit late executed and then is also executed too aggressive, making it very difficult to drive the car right at the limit.

So even if the sensored esc is a bit more expensive, I would still go for it (Hobbywing, cough, cough ;)).

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8 hours ago, wtcc5 said:

I could imagine you thinking about a sensored esc every time you accelerate from zero, when for half a second nothing happens and then the car stutters in motion.

I think I'm sold then! That would absolutely annoy me. And yes it's going to be an XR10 G3 ;)

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Seems like a waste to use that motor without the sensor lead. You could have bought a equivalent motor for half the money if you wanted to run sensorless. 
 

You can just use a the basic tamiya tble-02s  brushless esc if you need a cheap esc. Generally speaking if you need to be able to drive slowly, lots of stop then slow restart. You need sensored. If your just a full throttle guy, and you never use your vehicle at lower speed (under 10km/h) then sensorless is often a better choice. 

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I'm not a fan of the Tamiya ESC's as they are about the size of a small washing machine; also it annoys me that Tamiya chose to ignore the existence of LiPo chemistry. I know it's totally usable with LiPo and I manage my batteries so as to never actually need the low voltage cutoff. But it annoys me nonetheless. ESC's and batteries are probably the only items for which I do not go with Tamiya.

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1 hour ago, Pylon80 said:

Tamiya chose to ignore the existence of LiPo chemistry

Actually Tamiya does not chose to ignore lipo, it is even mentioned in their ESC instructions not to use it. It is a safety/liability thing, lipos are dangerous, no matter how you spin it, so they prefer people to be using NiMHs or their safer LiFE instead. 

For me, what I do not like about Tamiya ESC is how p-ed weak their BEC is. Pop on anything stronger than a very basic servo and it goes nuts. 

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1 minute ago, alvinlwh said:

Actually Tamiya does not chose to ignore lipo, it is even mentioned in their ESC instructions not to use it. It is a safety/liability thing, lipos are dangerous, no matter how you spin it, so they prefer people to be using NiMHs or their safer LiFE instead. 

 

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7 minutes ago, Pylon80 said:

 

🤣

Will you dare to run lipos without an alarm, will you? 😉

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1 minute ago, alvinlwh said:

🤣

Will you dare to run lipos without an alarm, will you? 😉

Oh now you are tempting me!

Seriously I would not let young kids handle RC cars with lipos (charging them etc) but I have come to accept the risks for myself and mitigate them. I use a good quality charger, double check the settings before pushing the key, never charge when I am not around, use a lipo safe bag etc. I was using them back in 2005 on a RC helicopter. There was no hardcase, no balance chargers (!!) and people would charge them unattended all the time. We just didn't know as much about them back then. I have also seen badly damaged ones from a crash with people holding the puffed out, bent cells in their hands :O

I am not surprised with Tamiya choosing the safest path. And as an anecdote, if you ever go to a public swimming pool in Japan they will have everyone get out of the water on the hour to test said water for proper pH and chlorine levels (also tatoos are prohibited :blink: but that is a different subject altogether).

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25 minutes ago, alvinlwh said:

For me, what I do not like about Tamiya ESC is how p-ed weak their BEC is. Pop on anything stronger than a very basic servo and it goes nuts. 

Interesting point. I forgot to mention that I use a 1258TG which is quite demanding on power. It required a glitch buster when my other Futaba servos never did.

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@Pylon80 I had blown up a 800mah vape device and that went with quite a bang with the thing flying across the room not to be found until months later. So I pay attention to lipos. Not so much as using bag to charge them, but I will ditch them at the first sign of puffing, sparking, smoking, etc... In fact I recently dumped a 10ah powerbank as it appears to be puffing.

Now about that BEC, if I use anything more than a basic 3 or 4kg servo with my TBLEs, I will definitely use an UBEC. I once had this "mystery" of the car not keeping still that had be attributed to various things, main one being my "cheap and basic" radio setup. Luckily I did not take the advice and go and get an expensive radio set as that will not solve the BEC problem. 

 

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8 hours ago, Pylon80 said:

I'm not a fan of the Tamiya ESC's as they are about the size of a small washing machine; also it annoys me that Tamiya chose to ignore the existence of LiPo chemistry. I know it's totally usable with LiPo and I manage my batteries so as to never actually need the low voltage cutoff. But it annoys me nonetheless. ESC's and batteries are probably the only items for which I do not go with Tamiya.

I totally agree, I guess it depends how much you plan to use the car. As I have so many and most are used at best once a year, I’m happy with the stock esc’s brushless performance. On the other hand anything I use more often using better gear. 

if it was me and I was still on a budget I’d go for the hobbywing 10bl60 because it’s cheap but has all the necessary programmable features including adjustable timing, drag brake, starting force (punch), adjustable lipo cutoff point and a 6v 3A bec. With a 17.5 motor I wouldn’t bother going to the 10bl120 as it’s got a bigger footprint unless you think you might like to try something lower than a 10.5 later on. 
 

I would avoid the juststock xr10, unless you are racing fixed timing class there is little value here, the tamiya motor has very narrow timing adjustability so having esc adjustability out to about 26.25 deg is nice if you feel like you want a bit more performance and have run out of gearing options (which is common on tamiya cars) , then it’s just a push of a button away. 
 

the only thing the xr10 has going for it for a general basher is it does look nice. 

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I'm in the sensored camp, too. One thing that never seems to get mentioned is that the motor responds predictably, so you can get very consistent with your driving and make tuning changes, both chassis and gearing, with a greater precision.

It's one of those things that make the hobby more enjoyable - having a model that responds correctly and precisely to inputs is simply more fun. I'd rather err on the side of speccing a kit with too expensive electronics than have to do it twice, or worse, having to deal with a power system that prevents me from concentrating on enjoying the drive.

That being said, Hobbywing Justock combos are excellent moderately priced systems for most models, and have the type of throttle feel that I like. I've driven some low-priced and RTR sensorless systems that I'd consider to be undrivable, even in an open field, while other sensorless systems drive very nicely when geared properly, even though they lack the predictability and low speed resolution of a good sensored setup.

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@Big Jon so I did a test with a 1060 and a brushed motor I had knocking around and as long as I use a glitch buster, even the puny 2A BEC of the 1060 seems fine with my 1258tg servo 🤔 so I suppose I don't need more BEC power after all.

If I want to stay on a budget I could then go with a 10BL60 Sensored. Cheaper and has adjustable timing compared to the XR10. Thank you for pointing it out. The separate capacitors look a bit funny on the 10BL60, could it just be a glitch buster? Also it looks less nice than the XR10, I agree. Red is a visual hassle on a Tamiya car with blue bits.

In any case I really hate poor man pays twice scenarios so anyone's input is appreciated before I pull the trigger!

Electronics are tricky to choose 😅

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@Pylon80 I have just been through this when choosing for my Durga. I keep coming back to 3 which work for me. All are programmable with the program card, work well and range from cheap and cheerful to all singing all dancing but still cheaper than the big brands

Trackstar 80a Turbo. 10.5T motor limit, turbo and boost as well as blinky mode. I have a few, they lasted well racing on dirt (they failed but after a few years), still have some and I would buy again. About NZD70 each from Hobbyking

SkyRC TS120. 4.5T motor limit, 3S capable, full programming. These cost more than the Trackstar but have better specs. Perform well, had one fail when racing on dirt but thats to be expected, I have 4 others that are still going fine. They come in plastic or alloy case. Most of mine are plastic as they are cheaper, I have been told of a failure because the heat sink separated from the case but havnet experienced that. I bought my first alloy case one for my Durga and its blue too. Come in blue, black or gold if colour is important. NZD100 - 130 from aliexpress, rcmart etc

Surpass Rocket TS160. From my experience they go really well, a few people have used them for a couple of years and they rate them. Cost about 1/2 - 2/3 of the price of the equivalent HW and perform as well. 160amps, low turn motors, full programming etc. Keep an eye on Banggood as they sometimes have them for a bargain price, I got some with motor for NZD160 a set, or paid about NZD145 for just the ESC, but retail is USD200

I've also had no issue with BEC, even a Savox 1251MG was fine with a TBLE-02S. I don't think its as much of an issue as it was a few years ago. The only time I have had issues is with very cheap servos which have failed and caused problems elsewhere but once the servo was changed everything worked fine

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Something to consider as well @Pylon80 is that if you are going to be driving your Rally car through water is that Sensored Brushless systems generally aren’t waterproof.

I have a XR10 ESC in my Javelin and it’s been great for me. I mainly put that in as there isn’t room for a fan. Originally it was paired to a Justock 17.5 but performance was disappointing, maybe gearing differently would have helped. The 17.5 now lives quite happily in my Blackfoot with a TBLE 02. The Javelin got a 13.5 Justock after that and is much better + a tooth bigger pinion.

I have also just installed a 17.5 RC Rocket that has timing in my M08 paired with a HW1060. That is the first motor I’ve had with timing and I was quite staggered how much difference it can make.

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Thanks all for your inputs.

@Re-Bugged

1 hour ago, Re-Bugged said:

17.5 RC Rocket that has timing in my M08 paired with a HW1060

Did you mean paired with a 10BL60?

I thought about the sensor wire and these JST plugs sure don't look waterproof. With an average of 1 day of rain per month where I live that's not a problem although I admit I was planning on going out and having fun during the occasional heavy rain. I could always remove the cable and somehow plug the sensor ports on those odd days.

The motor has been chosen and bought already and is a TBLM02S 17.5 :) I wanted a Tamiya and liked the fact that it has basically no vents or openings for the dust and (occasional) water to get in. Also that motor does have adjustable timing.

 

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2 hours ago, Pylon80 said:

Thanks all for your inputs.

@Re-Bugged

Did you mean paired with a 10BL60?

I thought about the sensor wire and these JST plugs sure don't look waterproof. With an average of 1 day of rain per month where I live that's not a problem although I admit I was planning on going out and having fun during the occasional heavy rain. I could always remove the cable and somehow plug the sensor ports on those odd days.

The motor has been chosen and bought already and is a TBLM02S 17.5 :) I wanted a Tamiya and liked the fact that it has basically no vents or openings for the dust and (occasional) water to get in. Also that motor does have adjustable timing.

 

Those motors like a lot of gear. I'd probably start around 5:1 FDR for good performance.

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10 minutes ago, Big Jon said:

Those motors like a lot of gear. I'd probably start around 5:1 FDR for good performance.

Would that number be suited for TC or rally?

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That 17.5t would be great for rally.  17.5 is a reasonable balance of speed, runtime, ability to cool and damage control.

Regarding the LiPO's on a TBLE, that's on you.

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Rally. TC would probably be lower than 4:1.

My 13.5 in an XV-01 is happy and fast in the 6:1 range, even with boost. If you don't gear a brushless motor enough, they can be pretty disappointing.

27 minutes ago, Pylon80 said:

Would that number be suited for TC or rally?

 

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