Thundershot - 1987 or 2005?

[wintersdawn 176]

Just got this off Ebay but before it comes thought I would see if anyone knows by looking at the pictures whether its the original 1987 or the 2005 re-release?  Cheers.

 

[MadInventor 3884]

Just based on the amount of grime and the size of the RX I'd say it's a vintage model. The steering servo label looks like it's a 1980s servo. Of course, someone could have put vintage radio gear in a re-re

Run it, if the gearbox doesn't make a racket it's probably a vintage one

[Ziddan 947]

No expert here but i think the rere has a machined aluminium motor mount, the originals had one made from stamped sheet metal.

Cant be figured out from pics but when it arrives that should be two screws or so to check,, i doubt someone would replace that bit since it isnt prone to breaking.

[wintersdawn 176]

Cheers

[Saito2 6686]

The '05 re-re used the stamped steel motor mount like the original. Why they went with a machined aluminum one for the current re-re, I don't know. Honestly, it could be either as 2005 was a long time ago but @MadInventor's right about the receiver (although half my gear is old ancient AM stuff like this). He's probably right about the bevel gears, lol. If they are malformed, its likely a re-re. 

[wintersdawn 176]

Cheers.  Sounds like Tamiya messed up the gears on the 2005 re-re, which is surprising, hope the 2022 re-re is better.  Found the thread where the 2022 re-re was announced on here but not much interest.

If mine is from 1987 I am hoping the parts from the 2005 & 2022 re-re will fit.  Will be surprised if the A5 part is intact, although looks good from the pictures, thankfully several options available now for a replacement, the best seeming to be the metal one.

It is a bit of a Frankenstein mash-up with an old Frog body and some over-sized wheels fitted with adapters but might perform ok on rough ground.  Its also had the battery compartment dremeled out so that a square lipo will fit so can use my 2s lipo's with the esc below on the way.

[taffer 948]

The 2005 rere was fine, I bought over a dozen at the time and built at least four of them....all ok.....issues started with the 2008 fire dragon

[wintersdawn 176]

On 8/29/2022 at 4:47 PM, taffer said:

The 2005 rere was fine, I bought over a dozen at the time and built at least four of them....all ok.....issues started with the 2008 fire dragon

Cheers. Do you know a definitive 'tell' between the 1987 & 2005 re-re?

[bRIBEGuy 3044]

On 8/29/2022 at 9:47 AM, taffer said:

The 2005 rere was fine, I bought over a dozen at the time and built at least four of them....

That is a LOT of Thundershots!  

4 minutes ago, wintersdawn said:

Cheers. Do you know a definitive 'tell' between the 1987 & 2005 re-re?

If you bought it in 2004 or earlier, it is almost certainly an original!  

I think the originals had a white endbell motor, where as the 2005 got a black endbell?  Since the 2005 had an ESC, you could check the screw holes where the MSC resister would mount.  If they are threaded, then it's likely an MSC was fitted, making it an original.  If they have not been threaded... likely a 2005.
 

[wintersdawn 176]

Cheers bRIBEGuy, I've just bought it off Ebay, as I said in the first post, so no didn't buy it in 2004 or earlier and so that's why I don't know it's origin's, hence the question! 

It doesn't come with the original motor so I can't use the endbell of the motor as a 'tell'.

Not sure Tamiya would have bothered to change the MSC resister holes from threaded to unthreaded for the 2005 re-re.

Thanks anyway.

 

[No Slack 454]

I see what I think is a Graupner Speed motor. So the motor will give you no clue for 1987 or 2005.

[bRIBEGuy 3044]

On 8/30/2022 at 1:02 PM, wintersdawn said:

Cheers bRIBEGuy, I've just bought it off Ebay, as I said in the first post, so no didn't buy it in 2004 or earlier and so I don't know it's origin's, hence the question! 

No, I don't think Tamiya wouldn't have changed the MSC resister holes from threaded to unthreaded! 

The date comment was a joke. 

The resister mounting holes were NEVER threaded... which is why I suggested checking.  If the original MSC was used, then the holes will have threads in them from the self tapping screws used for install.  This would imply an original Thundershot.

  If they do not have threads cut in them, then an ESC would have been used from day one, implying a newer (likely rere) car.

The definitive method is to check the mold stamps in the chassis.

[wintersdawn 176]

28 minutes ago, No Slack said:

I see what I think is a Graupner Speed motor. So the motor will give you no clue for 1987 or 2005.

Cheers for the lead on the motor :-)

[wintersdawn 176]

23 minutes ago, bRIBEGuy said:

The date comment was a joke. 

The resister mounting holes were NEVER threaded... which is why I suggested checking.  If the original MSC was used, then the holes will have threads in them from the self tapping screws used for install.  This would imply an original Thundershot.

  If they do not have threads cut in them, then an ESC would have been used from day one, implying a newer (likely rere) car.

A good idea but as you say it only 'implies' it is a 1987 Thundershot, a MSC could have been used on a 2005 re-re so not a definitive 'tell'.

I guess I'm looking for some clear difference between the 1987 and 2005 versions, like markings, type/colour of plastic etc.

[wintersdawn 176]

Unfortunately these Graupner motors are not rated in turns.  The Carson 500906264 Dragster ESC Brushed 70A ESC I have on the way goes down to 18 turns so hopefully it won't be lower than that, and it will be able to cope with 2S lipo!

[alvinlwh 5895]

1 hour ago, wintersdawn said:

The Carson 500906264 Dragster ESC Brushed 70A ESC I have on the way goes down to 18 turns so hopefully it won't be lower than that, and it will be able to cope with 2S lipo!

That ESC is rated for 3S. It is effectively a HW1060 with a different sticker on and probably be good for 12T on 2S, 18T on 3S.

[wintersdawn 176]

1 hour ago, alvinlwh said:

That ESC is rated for 3S. It is effectively a HW1060 with a different sticker on and probably be good for 12T on 2S.

Great news, thanks! Don't know why Carson rate it differently, especially if it can cope with more:

"2s Lipo or 6 Cells NimH: 540, 550 Motor - Lowest 18 Turn or Below with 30000 rpm @ 7.2v"

Do they mean less than 18 turn is ok as long as the RPMS don't go over 30,000 at 7.2v? Cheers 

[wintersdawn 176]

Maybe if Tamiya just reused the 1987 molds etc for the 2005 re-re there is no definitive way to tell a 1987 from a 2005.

Not to worry, I was just curious and it would have been cool to know I had a RC from 35 years ago!

[wintersdawn 176]

The cva's need topping up, I'm wondering if I could use a substitute, I have some cooking sunflower oil I need to use up!?

[alvinlwh 5895]

20 hours ago, wintersdawn said:

Great news, thanks! Don't know why Carson rate it differently, especially if it can cope with more:

"2s Lipo or 6 Cells NimH: 540, 550 Motor - Lowest 18 Turn or Below with 30000 rpm @ 7.2v"

Do they mean less than 18 turn is ok as long as the RPMS don't go over 30,000 at 7.2v? Cheers 

I think there is a mistake with the specs, it is 18T, but at 3S. Some information had been dropped it seems. 

I had asked the RPM question before, generally speaking, neither turns nor RPM information are correct, it is the amps that matter. However, the turns and RPM are easy guide new users. 

Now, for some reason that I still do not understand yet, there are some motors, say 17T, with more slots that are far slower than other 17T motors. 

[wintersdawn 176]

26 minutes ago, alvinlwh said:

I think there is a mistake with the specs, it is 18T, but at 3S. Some information had been dropped it seems. 

I had asked the RPM question before, generally speaking, neither turns nor RPM information are correct, it is the amps that matter. However, the turns and RPM are easy guide new users. 

Now, for some reason that I still do not understand yet, there are some motors, say 17T, with more slots that are far slower than other 17T motors. 

Yes, as the Carson ESC is a rebadged HW1060 then the spec's should say 18T at 3s, the same as the HW1060:

• Motor Limit - 2S Lipo or 6 NiMH - 540 or 550 Size Motor: 12T or RPM 30000 - 7.2V
• 3S Lipo or 9 NiMH - 540 or 550 Size Motor: 18T or RPM 20000 - 7.2V

Will check out the ESC thread, cheers.  

[alvinlwh 5895]

7 minutes ago, wintersdawn said:

Yes, as the Carson ESC is a rebadged HW1060 then the spec's should say 18T at 3s, the same as the HW1060:

• Motor Limit - 2S Lipo or 6 NiMH - 540 or 550 Size Motor: 12T or RPM 30000 - 7.2V
• 3S Lipo or 9 NiMH - 540 or 550 Size Motor: 18T or RPM 20000 - 7.2V 

It seems to me that they only copied the underlined part into their published specs.

Bear in mind that a 20k RPM @ 7.2V will do 30k+ RPM @ 3S.

Also note that there is a difference in their published amps. The Carson one is 70A while the HW one is 60A, as in 1060.

[wintersdawn 176]

24 minutes ago, alvinlwh said:

It seems to me that they only copied the underlined part into their published specs.

Bear in mind that a 20k RPM @ 7.2V will do 30k+ RPM @ 3S.

Also note that there is a difference in their published amps. The Carson one is 70A while the HW one is 60A, as in 1060.

Bit of a mess up! 

Glad the Carson ESC can cope with a motor down to 12T at 2S, as the Graupner motor probably isn't going to be lower than that so the ESC should be safe.

The other possible problem is whether the Graupner motor can handle the power of 2S, but not too bothered if it burns out as long as the damage is confined to the motor.

[alvinlwh 5895]

23 minutes ago, wintersdawn said:

The other possible problem is whether the Graupner motor can handle the power of 2S, but not too bothered if it burns out as long as the damage is confined to the motor.

I had smoked a few motors, usually by inappropriate gearing and/or surface. Nothing bad happened to the car. 

[wintersdawn 176]

Looking forward to complete disassembly, clean & lube. Thought I'd do the Tamiya manual in reverse.