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How really dangerous are lipos?

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Many thanks for all your advice. I think in the long run I will get a shorty for the TD4 but will probably take it out to charge. The dismount of the front suspension is only really an issue if your out running lots of packs through. I probably would only use the one in a session and move on to another car. Just being lazy really!!!

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9 hours ago, Wooders28 said:

thought I'd keep a few nicad & nimh, but once I'd switched to lipo, I've given them all away (think I might have one somewhere...) , as a lipo at low voltage cut off, is around the running voltage of a charged nimh.

This was similar to my experience, 

however, I still have an Arrma SCT I bought at a super discount this summer that I’m still running on the included RTR 7 cell Nihm simply because I’ve been too lazy to put a plug on the esc to run my lipos on it . 
 
Also, I keep Nihm with Tamiya plugs on them around to run the starter wand for my nitros. 
 

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1 hour ago, Dakratfink said:

Yeah, I really miss 4 minute heat races and 5 minute features where your buggy barely makes it across the finish line on the last lap. Lol 

I know you're joking and I was too initially, but I think only partially as I gave it some thought. BITD, with motor and battery tech being what it was, there was so much move involved on the technical end that it provided a leg up for those willing to put in the time. Being a mechanic first and a driver second (when I used to drag race, I would have thought nothing of giving up the driver's seat to a consistent, decent driver so I could work on the mechanical variables) means I might have had an edge. Set up was secretive and that was part of racing just like the Peter Gregg Brumos Porsche days of 1:1 racing.

Nowadays, its all driver for the most part. You can pretty much set up car up like the champ's (who often post their set-ups now) and have mostly the same equipment. I will admit the plus side is the big boys no longer have access to secretive special equipment which helps level the playing field. The negative side is there's far less excuses when one isn't doing their best, lol. 

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@Saito2 is right on the money.  NiCd and brushed motors are old tech, but nothing to be made fun of.  It’s really what got us to where we are today and should be celebrated.  

You have to know the old to truly understand why the new and if it applies to you.   It’s not like I’m still stuck in pre-2000.  :lol: lol 

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10 hours ago, alvinlwh said:

A lipo fire did cause a plane crash! RM's strict no lithium policy came shortly after. 

81,000 lithium batteries!! 😳

 

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12 minutes ago, Wooders28 said:

81,000 lithium batteries!! 😳

 

It just takes a bad one... 

In all seriousness, it is often said lipos are only dangerous if charged, discharged, abused, etc and they "don't" catch fire sitting there. Well, this one did as i doubt it was being charged or discharged on that plane. However, I had seen a video of how lithium batteries are made and the separator film is getting ever thinner to allow for more materials (and therefore more energy) into the battery and a tiny flaw can cause an internal short. Thing is, we will never know which of our batteries will have this fault from the factory. I had (again) brand new vape device puffing almost fresh out of the box and those thing usually have far more protection (overcharge, overdischarge, over voltage, under voltage) than our RC batteries. 

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On 9/15/2022 at 12:19 PM, sosidge said:

Lipos are only dangerous if you behave like an idiot.

A lipo sat in a car is no more or less likely to spontaneously combust than one in a lipo sack (and spontaneous combustion is very, very, very rare).

Just remember that there are billions of phones in the world with lipo cells in them and hundreds of thousands of RC lipo packs sitting in shops and warehouses with absolutely no attention being paid to them. These places aren't catching fire.

Personally I wouldn't have a setup where I have to leave the LiPo in the car permanently, I'd want to take it out. I'd also put it in storage mode after use and I definitely wouldn't leave it plugged in to the ESC (because most ESCs will cause a small current drain).

I have several LiPos sitting in the cars they are used with instead of a lipo bag. I'm happy with the level of risk.

Thank you Sosidge for addressing the LiPo boogie man question. We should have a sticky for this as it is sure to come up in a week from now.

I love this forum yet it’s the only one that still has urban legends and myths about brushless motors and LiPos. 
 

Yes you can Google Teslas going up in smoke and other LiPo fires. You can also still find ICE cars going up in smoke as well. Yet I am fairly certain that I will successfully finish this post before the phone I’m typing on goes up in smoke thus ending my ability to use my hands.

Here is my LiPo questionnaire. If you answer yes to any of these, LiPo is not for you

1. Do you plan on drilling, puncturing, slicing into your LiPo battery?

2. Do you plan smashing your LiPo battery with a hammer?

3. Do you plan on short circuiting your LiPo battery?

4. Do you plan on charging your LiPo with your old NiMh / Nicd charger?

If you answered yes, then please don’t buy a LiPo. 
 

Now for some LiPo best practices:

1. buy hard case lipos for your cars 
2. Charge it in a LiPo case if you feel you must

3. Invest in a proper charger like ICharger or ISDt. 
 

4. Religiously place the LiPo in storage mode via charger after you’re done. Your battery will last a very long time.

5. Store the battery in a cool area when not in use. I store in the re****erator during summer months 

6. if you’re using bullet connectors, shorten the nearest lead so you cant cross polarity. Eg, negative is on inner side, shorten negative wire so you can’t accidentally reach positive. Due this consistently for all cars you use the batteries

7. If LiPos have barrel bullets on both side, tape or plug one side off so you don’t accidentally use it, polarity will be reversed when you flip it. 
 

Follow these steps and you will not have a problem with LiPos.

 

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Probably less dangerous to ourselves and others than the automobiles that most of us own, operate, and are otherwise around. 

Like any other tool, they need to be treated intelligently and with reasonable respect. Do that, and you probably will be fine.

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13 hours ago, alvinlwh said:

In all seriousness, it is often said lipos are only dangerous if charged, discharged, abused, etc and they "don't" catch fire sitting there

I prefer, lipos are grumpier ,when getting charged. 

Driving Off Road, we 'abuse' them more than most imo, and chuckle a bit, when I see lipos 2nd hand, 'only used for 2 race meetings, always storage charged, never abused', even though, its been essentially, dropped 4ft onto the ground, every single lap....

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A few things to consider.

RC LiPos, unlike those used everywhere else, have no internal failsafe circuitry within the battery.  Comparing them to phone and laptop batteries is unrealistic.

RC LiPos are not matched to a particular charger and so are charged only via the expertise of the user, and are thus exposed to any errors the user may make.

RC LiPos have been known to burn even when treated 'correctly'.  Bear in mind the electrical stress placed on the battery by RC is known to exceed what cell manufacturers rate them for - ever wondered why not a single RC LiPo has the cell manufacturer's name on the case or packaging?  One particular thing I take issue with is overblown C rating.  You won't catch Panasonic rating a cell at 100C for example, but you will see that nonsense plastered all over many RC batteries.

If RC LiPo fires were only as rare as plane crashes, every plane in every country would have been grounded for years.

 

These batteries are not without risk.  I use them, but I understand why people wouldn't want to.  I won't let my kids handle them until they are 10+ years old, at least.

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1 hour ago, Wooders28 said:

I prefer, lipos are grumpier ,when getting charged. 

Driving Off Road, we 'abuse' them more than most imo, and chuckle a bit, when I see lipos 2nd hand, 'only used for 2 race meetings, always storage charged, never abused', even though, its been essentially, dropped 4ft onto the ground, every single lap....

It is all a matter of risk assessment mate, being British, I am sure you are familiar with them. 😁

Now for lithium batteries, it is actually a 2 part RA, in use/charging and storage. Both carry the same harm/damage, bringing a plane down, death. Chances of it happening is low when in storage, "as likely as a plane crash" low. In use/charging is somewhat higher. Note that user error and lipo safe bags are ignored at this point. 

So putting my H&S hat on, I will say:

Storage: harm 5 x chances 1 = risk 5 (very low) 

In use/charge: harm 5 x chances 3 = risk 15 (medium) 

So to bring the risk down, control measures can be brought in, like lipo safe bags, metal storage containers, outdoor charging + storage, correct charging current, etc... I do some of them to reduce the risk. One thing I often seen ignore but is a very real thing is manufacturing faults, something unknown and out of our control and is something I fear will become more common as manufactures push ever higher ah and C ratings. 

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48 minutes ago, alvinlwh said:

It is all a matter of risk assessment mate, being British, I am sure you are familiar with them. 😁

Being British, working in heavy engineering and being a member of the works 'lock-out, tag out' safety Committee, oh yes! 🤣

 

49 minutes ago, alvinlwh said:

One thing I often seen ignore but is a very real thing is manufacturing faults,

One of the reasons the BRCA have the, buying from a known UK supplier rule. 

Working in manufacturing all my working life, I know how the quality control works, in reality. Yes things (anything to a point), can be made in the same factory, but, the best quality goes to the best/highest paying customer (M&S used to be the top, when I was in the clothing trade) and then the rest goes to everyone else , some best quality and some not so much (below a certain quality, obviously doesn't go out at all). 

With the likes of the cheap 'goolrc' combs, some combos are brilliant and last years, whilst others let out magic smoke at the first plug in, really is just about luck, pay your money, take your chance.

Unless 100% quality checks, (even when I worked for Garretts ,we only checked 10% for tolerance) you'll never know, so some will inevitably slip though.

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I managed to create fireworks out of one. I was trying to separate the two halves of the plastic casing with a Stanley knife. A moment after it shorted the 2 cells (2S) inside all badword broke loose and the casing suddenly wasn’t a problem anymore! :lol: 

 

also I should mention this was in my front room ^_^ I managed to get it out the front window onto a concrete path below where it glowed red hot. I was left with a smoke filled room, scorched bench towel, and a slightly burnt hand where I’d chucked it out.

 

I’d say they’re safe as long as you always leave at storage voltage, and don’t try to disassemble haha 

here’s a pic of it 

BE54E2AA-E909-48CB-9102-E25F838D6D0B.jpeg.08da370a1f3b641e5250daf6cf51c2e5.jpeg

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29 minutes ago, CoolHands said:

I was trying to separate the two halves of the plastic casing with a Stanley knife.

I had to split mine the same way, like something out of 'The Hurt Locker' and hearing 'cut the blue wire'!! 😱🤣

Outside though, obviously.....🙄🤦‍♂️

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1 hour ago, Wooders28 said:

I had to split mine the same way, like something out of 'The Hurt Locker' and hearing 'cut the blue wire'!! 😱🤣

Outside though, obviously.....🙄🤦‍♂️

Apt comparison. With the higher energy density of lipo, they are certainly more dangerous than NiMHs or NiCds. Like a bundle of dynamite vs. a hand grenade. Both will cause damage if misused, but one is definitely more likely to take your whole house down with it.

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49 minutes ago, El Gecko said:

Like a bundle of dynamite vs. a hand grenade

Also, nuclear vs coal fired power station, nuclear is a much better fuel, and quite safe, but, only when handled correctly and all procedures are followed (RA for containment etc).

I think I've said on another thread, you'll struggle to find any tech these days, that's not powered by lithium, relatively small, light weight and energy dense, they're literally ,made for the job. Not only phones and tablets ,but battery drills etc (which are quickly becoming brushless too! ...but that's another topic 💣 🙄).

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