Monster Beetle Pinion Options

[wintersdawn 176]

The standard pinion gear is 10T which I'm finding a bit too fierce on acceleration and I wondered if it was possible to put a pinion gear with more teeth to decrease the acceleration and increase top speed?

Cheers.

[Frog Jumper 3657]

Yes, with any of the ORV adjustable motor mounts.

Here’s the catch.  The shaft on the silver can is too short to mount a standard pinion in the correct position.  Thorp took care of this issue by making extra long pinions with 10 thru 16 teeth (see ebay).  Some modern motors have a longer shaft so you may be able to use a standard pinion depending on what you have.

Terry

 

[wintersdawn 176]

Cheers Terry.  I have installed this motor, which has quite a long motor shaft compared with the standard 540.

I have checked in the Monster Beetle manual and it appears to use a 52T counter gear which meshes with the pinion gear.  Cross-checking with the Frog manual, a 52T counter gear uses a 16T pinion gear.  Hopefully this sounds right.

The other question I have is will I need to mount the motor with new pinion gear directly onto the gearbox or can I still use the plastic motor mount.  The Frog didn't use the plastic motor mount and is the same gearbox I believe.

Cheers.

[wintersdawn 176]

Also found this thread that someone said, use an 18T pinion gear but don't use the plastic motor mount:

https://www.tamiyaclub.com/forum/index.php?/topic/94230-monster-beetle-pinion/

[Frog Jumper 3657]

If you decide to use the 16t pinion, you can mount the motor directly to the tranny case.  DL the Frog manual to double check since the way the screws work will change when you remove the BF/MB motor mount.  

[wintersdawn 176]

39 minutes ago, Frog Jumper said:

If you decide to use the 16t pinion, you can mount the motor directly to the tranny case.  DL the Frog manual to double check since the way the screws work will change when you remove the BF/MB motor mount.  

Cheers, the screws for the Frog are the same, even though not using the plastic motor mount.

[Frog Jumper 3657]

4 minutes ago, wintersdawn said:

Also found this thread that someone said, use an 18T pinion gear but don't use the plastic motor mount:

https://www.tamiyaclub.com/forum/index.php?/topic/94230-monster-beetle-pinion/

Once you DL the Frog manual, you’ll see how the 18t works - you change out the counter gear.

I don’t recommend doing this unless you intend your BF/MB be a street machine.  The strain will burn out the motor if used off-road.

[Frog Jumper 3657]

Here are notes I took for myself a few years ago about this:

————————

Blackfoot Counter: 52T outer, 17T inner

Blackfoot Diff: 48T

Frog Counter 01: 49T outer, 18T inner (high speed)
Frog Counter 02: 50T outer, 18T inner (standard)
Frog Counter 03: 52T outer, 18T inner (Torque)

Frog Diff: 47T

Thorp Counter (standard): 52T outer, 18T inner (Thorp #4520)
Thorp Counter (overdrive):  48T outer, 18T inner  (Thorp #4530)

Thorp Diff: 47T (Throp #4506)

The Blackfoot Counter, the Frog Counter 03, and the Thorp Counter (standard) are all 52T and are the same diameter.  The Frog 50T is slightly smaller, with the 49T being smaller still...

The 18T Frog and the Thorp Counter inner gears are the same diameter. The 17T BF inner is slightly smaller...

The 47T Frog and the Thorp Diff are the same diameter, and the 48T BF is slightly larger.

The Frog and BF gears are the same thickness, and the Thorp are slightly thicker.

IMO, the Thorp system is a clone of the Frog stuff... and that the 17T is slightly smaller to accommodate the slightly larger 48T Diff on the BF... It solves the riddle of why each set of gears is marked with the car! You wouldn't want to put a BF Counter on a Frog Diff!

That said, the Thorp stuff should plug-and-play with the Frog stuff...
 

———————————

[wintersdawn 176]

Just now, Frog Jumper said:

Once you DL the Frog manual, you’ll see how the 18t works - you change out the counter gear.

I don’t recommend doing this unless you intend your BF/MB be a street machine.  The strain will burn out the motor if used off-road.

Cheers, so it will be better to keep the standard 52T counter gear and use 16T to reduce the strain on the motor as I will be using it off-road/bashing.

[Frog Jumper 3657]

3 minutes ago, wintersdawn said:

Cheers, so it will be better to keep the standard 52T counter gear and use 16T to reduce the strain on the motor as I will be using it off-road/bashing.

Honestly, if you want more speed, I would get a faster motor (and LiPo) and keep the 10t.  But then you wouldn’t have all the fun experimenting with the different configurations!

 

[wintersdawn 176]

Just now, Frog Jumper said:

Honestly, if you want more speed, I would get a faster motor (and LiPo) and keep the 10t.  But then you wouldn’t have all the fun experimenting with the different configurations!

 

The motor I have fitted is a 12T and I'm using 2s Lipo.  Not sure I know a faster brushed motor than 12T.

[wintersdawn 176]

In your notes above why does the counter gear change but the pinion gear stay the same, the Frog manual says for each counter gear there is a different pinion gear.

Frog Counter 01: 49T outer, 18T inner (high speed)
Frog Counter 02: 50T outer, 18T inner (standard)
Frog Counter 03: 52T outer, 18T inner (Torque)

[wintersdawn 176]

I won't speed test the 10T pinion gear x 52T counter gear combination but hoping the 16T pinion gear x 52T counter gear will tame the acceleration and increase the top speed.

With the 10T pinion gear x 52T counter gear combination the MB flips on its roof from a standing start so I don't think the bodyshell would last too long!

Cheers Terry for all the help, just purchased the 16T pinion gear, unfortunately no grub screw so will hopefully have one that fits.

 

[Frog Jumper 3657]

46 minutes ago, wintersdawn said:

In your notes above why does the counter gear change but the pinion gear stay the same, the Frog manual says for each counter gear there is a different pinion gear.

Frog Counter 01: 49T outer, 18T inner (high speed)
Frog Counter 02: 50T outer, 18T inner (standard)
Frog Counter 03: 52T outer, 18T inner (Torque)

The inner gear is the one in the center of the outer counter.  The pinion contacts the outer counter, the inner spur gear engages the diff gear.

[wintersdawn 176]

22 minutes ago, Frog Jumper said:

The inner gear is the one in the center of the outer counter.  The pinion contacts the outer counter, the inner spur gear engages the diff gear.

Cheers.

[alvinlwh 5891]

2 hours ago, wintersdawn said:

The motor I have fitted is a 12T and I'm using 2s Lipo.  Not sure I know a faster brushed motor than 12T.

Not being funny here but are you sure your 12T is a 12T? A fast 12T? There are many reports of 12T that cannot even match one of the Z's, which are 23T. TBH, it is rather difficult to find good brushed these days, many are just rebadged versions of something or another from China. 

EDIT: noticed your earlier picture, you are using a 550? Those should be much better on the torque (but slower on the RPM) so you can use faster gearing. 

[wintersdawn 176]

3 hours ago, alvinlwh said:

Not being funny here but are you sure your 12T is a 12T? A fast 12T? There are many reports of 12T that cannot even match one of the Z's, which are 23T. TBH, it is rather difficult to find good brushed these days, many are just rebadged versions of something or another from China. 

EDIT: noticed your earlier picture, you are using a 550? Those should be much better on the torque (but slower on the RPM) so you can use faster gearing. 

It says Sport Tuned and 12T is printed on the side so I assumed good for speed but it is a budget price. The flipping onto it's roof from a standing start seemed to indicate power, the standard 540 did not do this, although I haven't speed tested yet & won't until I fit the 16T pinion gear.

[wintersdawn 176]

Here is a link for the motor:

https://www.timetunnelmodels.com/live/catalog/etronix-et0300-sport-tuned-turn-brushed-motor-high-performance-motor-suits-tamiya-similar-brands-with-appropriate-escs-p-69602.html

 

[wintersdawn 176]

I'm not expecting record breaking speed, I estimate the standard 540 was giving 10-12mph so hopefully faster than that.

I know the Arrma and Traxxas brushed 12T motors are about three times the price so, based on that, probably faster, unless paying for the name.

[alvinlwh 5891]

2 hours ago, wintersdawn said:

It says Sport Tuned and 12T is printed on the side so I assumed good for speed but it is a budget price. The flipping onto it's roof from a standing start seemed to indicate power, the standard 540 did not do this, although I haven't speed tested yet & won't until I fit the 16T pinion gear.

Yes, I know that motor, it comes in black or silver, seems to depend on batch. Turn for turn, 550 is slower compared to 540 but great in torque. I had swapped out a 540 for 550 because the 540 was overheating big time. Of off roading, the 550 is actually faster as it can push the bigger pinion. Flipping it like you described is torque not speed. So to tame that, you can go for higher gearing. 

[wintersdawn 176]

4 hours ago, alvinlwh said:

Yes, I know that motor, it comes in black or silver, seems to depend on batch. Turn for turn, 550 is slower compared to 540 but great in torque. I had swapped out a 540 for 550 because the 540 was overheating big time. Of off roading, the 550 is actually faster as it can push the bigger pinion. Flipping it like you described is torque not speed. So to tame that, you can go for higher gearing. 

Cheers for that, I guess I will have to wait and see when I speed test on 16T. 

If it's not that powerful I guess I will lose some of the acceleration performance and not gain much extra speed. I wonder if I should speed test on 10T for comparison first, it may be no higher speed on 16T and be confirmed.

[wintersdawn 176]

Just fitted the 16T pinion gear and no more flipping on its roof and the rear tyres are ballooning under full throttle.

I could no longer use the plastic motor mount as the pinion was shorter than the original 10T pinion. A small advantage of not using the plastic motor mount is, the motor and wires are further in and so further away from the tyre.

With the combination of the 12 turn motor and 16T pinion gear, the acceleration has been tamed and top speed increased (I saw no tyre ballooning using the same motor and the original 10T pinion gear) but won't know the figure until I speed test.

 

[Kol__ 3377]

Good thread here. Did you get around to the speed test @wintersdawn? How's the MB running now?

[wintersdawn 176]

I decided to sell it so didn't get round to the speed tests.