Optima Mid vs. Avante Black Special

[slateman84 5]

Hi all, I need your help in determining which re-re car is worth the money (one more so than the other?!?) - which one would you pick if you had to choose between these two? Thanks in advance for your support.

[Snappy1 966]

Runner = Optima Mid

Shelfer= Avante Black

[slateman84 5]

OK, but is it really worth it to spend almost 500€ for a Buggy that you just let sit on your shelf? Does the Avante not have any other characteristics to it that makes it stand out? It has a special motor in this release. Is it just „blingbling“ or worth the investment? Other than that: If the Avante Black Special is a „Shelfer“ - is that also the case with the upcoming EGRESS Black Special. I like the Buggies Design-wise but I am not inclined to spend almost 500€ for a „Shelfer“.

[Superluminal 3750]

I think from your last post that probably the Avante isnt going to scratch your itch. For those who have a new Avante they probably have one for a couple of reasons - the nostalgia of original ownership / making up for not being able to own an original and secondly for  wanting the build experience of an Avante. For me it was more the latter - its a build of precision engineering joy in carbon fibre and machined aluminium that is unlike almost any other kit and for me that was worth the money alone (i ended up with two, a 2011 and a BS) They were never great runners so mine will only ever be shelfers.

@Snappy1 is right, the Optima Mid will provide the better driving experience and will be less delicate than the Avante.

[Willy iine 18805]

I don’t own the black edition Avante, but the standard issue rere Avante.   I never got the itch to get the black edition.. this is just me.  

 

The Optima MID is definitely the one I’d choose.. especially now that I know what the rere Optima MID is capable of.   Definitely worth the price, even after all the hop ups.   GL with your choice!  

 

[moffman 5752]

Well I'm on the side of the avante as a thing of beauty the black and the normal and its tamiya at its best as is the optima mid kyosho at it's best but the optima is more usable but both are fantastic so which ever you choose you won't be disappointed

[markbt73 5316]

I've never owned or driven an Avante, and I don't yet have an Optima Mid re-re, but I had an original Mid for a while, and I deeply regret selling it. It was a wonderful buggy. Excellent runner, good handling, very strong, nice to work on, and it looked fantastic both on the shelf and running. Its only fault is that space is very tight inside, which is less of an issue now that electronics are so tiny.

I wouldn't say no to an Avante, but I've never felt it was worth the money (to me).I've heard it can be fragile, and I already have enough other Tamiya 4WD buggies. It sure is pretty, though.

As for spending that much money just to have a shelfer, plenty of people do just that. Vintage new-in-box kits change hands for twice that or more, and then sit on a shelf unbuilt. Even I, who tends to be a "run everything" type person, have two or three rather expensive cars that are strictly shelfers (for now). It's all a matter of what part of the hobby interests you - are you a collector, a builder, a casual driver, a basher, a racer, or some blend of all of them?

But the short answer, if you're only going to get one of them: Optima Mid, no question.

[slateman84 5]

Thank you all for your in-depth answers.

It‘s still open for me as I currently have an Avante BS on order and an unbuilt Optima Mid in my stash (the one with the limited optional parts). Wanted to evaluate which one to keep or swap as it is alot of money to spend again this month.

I‘m now somehow tempted to keep them both.

Anyway, let‘s see …

[slateman84 5]

@moffman Thank you very much for the side-by-side comparison.

[Saito2 6686]

4 hours ago, slateman84 said:

Other than that: If the Avante Black Special is a „Shelfer“ - is that also the case with the upcoming EGRESS Black Special.

No. The Egress (standard or Black Special) is considered a better "runner" than the Avante. The Mid was somewhat more conventional in its design and follow-through. With a clear goal as well more experienced feedback from racers at the the time, the Mid proved to be a very competitive buggy. Without the Tamiya Blinders I proudly wore back then, if I chose to compete, the Mid would have been my choice. Easier to source parts for than the Yokomos and less finicky than the Schumacher CATs of the era, the Mid would have checked all my boxes. The CAT might have had an edge, properly built and set-up with a good driver, but the Optima Mid would be much easier to live with for the common racer. Well thought-out and durable was the Mid.

After slipping by the wayside with their earlier Hotshot efforts, the Avante was Tamiya's technological tour-de-force. A clean sheet design attempting to innovate as well as bring Tamiya back to the forefront of racing was the Avante's pitch. As such, it is beautiful and inspired in its design. It was also largely a failure at doing what it set out to do. There are deep technical issues that would keep it out of the winner's circle in most cases. Tamiya's design shows inexperience in what racers both wanted and needed. In addition to being beautiful it was also more fragile and heavier than the competition. 

The Egress fixes or minimally addresses most of the Avante's short comings. Most of the Egress's parts were available first as hop-ups parts for the faltering Avante. From its more fragile nature, its rather darty composure to its high weight, the Egress was an attempt at rectifying these issues.

People have had success with Avantes but in the end, a good driver can drive around some of the "quirks". The same driver would be faster handed a car without quirks. Now, some will claim the Avante is made of "glass" but it can certainly be run and enjoyed. Its not that flawed. It just failed at its initial intended purpose. This winter, I hope to receive my Mid and build it side-by-side with another Avante I intend to run. It should prove interesting. If I had to pick the Avante or the Egress overall, as a car to run and enjoy, I would still go for the Egress.

[Willy iine 18805]

2 hours ago, slateman84 said:

Thank you all for your in-depth answers.

It‘s still open for me as I currently have an Avante BS on order and an unbuilt Optima Mid in my stash (the one with the limited optional parts). Wanted to evaluate which one to keep or swap as it is alot of money to spend again this month.

I‘m now somehow tempted to keep them both.

Anyway, let‘s see …

Yes, that would be the ideal way to go.  You can still drive the Avante as @Saito2 posted above.  Just drive sensibly and you’ll be fine.  I would make sure all screws are tight and using thread lock where indicated.  Some parts can be difficult to get so I’d keep that in mind.  

[moffman 5752]

17 hours ago, slateman84 said:

@moffman Thank you very much for the side-by-side comparison.

Can I just say though when/if you build your mid I had quite a bit of trouble with the shocks leaking one of the front ones were really bad but I could not see for the life of me what was wrong or if I'd built them incorrectly keeping in mind that I've built dozens of these shocks and Never had one bit of trouble with them before  the only thing I could see what was or could possibly be wrong was the red o rings felt a bit too loose in the shock chamber! So I changed them for the tamiya black o rings because they felt a lot better fit and so far they've been spot on and no leaks at all!

[Willy iine 18805]

Good to know @moffman    I need to assemble 8 more Kyosho dampers so I will keep this in mind if I encounter it.   

 

I have TRF x-rings which seem to work better on some dampers, especially CVA dampers but not sure if relevant to Kyosho dampers.  So far none of my Kyosho dampers have leaked once I figured out how to slide the external gasket without damaging it.

[moffman 5752]

9 hours ago, Willy iine said:

Good to know @moffman    I need to assemble 8 more Kyosho dampers so I will keep this in mind if I encounter it.   

 

I have TRF x-rings which seem to work better on some dampers, especially CVA dampers but not sure if relevant to Kyosho dampers.  So far none of my Kyosho dampers have leaked once I figured out how to slide the external gasket without damaging it.

Like I say I've built dozens of these shocks and this is the very first time I've had trouble with them and I don't know if changing the o rings is what it needs to cure the problem but it seems to work? 

Yeah that little gasket is a pain to line up and its opaque which doesn't help!

[naturbo2000 1271]

I run (not race) all my RC cars. It was the latest re-re of the Avante Black that got me back into the hobby earlier this year, because it's the ultimate real evolution of the model I wanted when I first got into it (12 year old me considers the Egress to be different ).

The Avante is a really enjoyable build and it's surprisingly nice to drive. But honestly I think my OG Optima would run rings around it, let alone an Optima Mid. And for sure I'm nervous driving the Avante because I actively don't want to crash it. I'm way more comfortable with my Top Force Evo and drive it way more aggressively.

If the Turbo Optima Mid Special or I guess the Lazer ZX show up in the Legendary Series, I'll jump on it in a heartbeat and drive it like I stole it.

 

[Big Jon 684]

The Avante is easily the most beautiful RC car ever made, the Black raises the quality level a notch with the included hop-ups. I badly want to build a Black with correct Avante color scheme, even though it’s performance would probably disappoint me.

The Mid is extraordinary, and was almost an anomaly BITD. It performed extremely well out of the box, parts were readily available through Tower/Great Planes, and it was so much more durable than everything else. A YZ-10 might have handled a little better, or whatever, but the Mid was a TANK. Just an excellent runner.

As badly as I want to build an Avante, I’d buy the Mid. It’s every bit as important in RC history, cheaper, conventionally attractive, has good enough parts support, and is unarguably the better hard runner, especially with modern horsepower.

There’s no way an Avante of any sort would survive long with a 6.5 and Lipo on carpet.

[Killajb 1546]

Have the Optima Mid, and I love it.  Build was very smooth and it is a pleasure to run.  I've been longing for a NIB Avante for ages.  I just want the experience of building one and being able to marvel at it on my shelf every day.  The Avante Black Special is actually cheaper here than an original or 2011 Avante because of scarcity.  Still.. I shudder to think that in order to get an Avante into my collction, I now have to spring for an Avante Black Special and then source Avante re-re decals and wheels..  I'd end up spending more than  Team Associated B74.(whatever the latest is now)..

[Gabranth 216]

On 10/30/2022 at 10:35 PM, Saito2 said:

The Egress fixes or minimally addresses most of the Avante's short comings. Most of the Egress's parts were available first as hop-ups parts for the faltering Avante. From its more fragile nature, its rather darty composure to its high weight, the Egress was an attempt at rectifying these issues.

Interesting history. What about Vanquish/VQS and Avante 2001 place in this hierarchy?

[Saito2 6686]

3 hours ago, Gabranth said:

Interesting history. What about Vanquish/VQS and Avante 2001 place in this hierarchy?

Tamiya produced a variety of hop-ups for the beleaguered Avante after its introduction including a carbon graphite chassis set, titanium screw set, light weight wheels, a ball raced steering set, F/R ball diffs, Hicap shocks etc.  Of particular interest was the carbon graphite chassis set. Besides including a longer, different design set of carbon fiber chassis decks, the kit also included new plastic suspension arms and such to replace the beautiful, but heavy and wear-prone aluminum ball-ended suspension found on the stock Avante. This traded some of the Avante's over-adjustability (much of which was of little use anyway) for greater simplicity and durability.

The Vanquish used these suspension parts and the light weight wheel set along the a longer wheelbase plastic tub chassis, CVA shocks, metal bushings, an MSC, etc. The use of cost-cutting bushings and plastic shocks led some to believe the Vanquish was merely a budget Avante when it was introduced. This, however, was not so. The Vanquish, despite its cheaper materials, out-performed the Avante being more durable, lighter and of longer wheelbase etc.

The Egress was merely the full-tilt Avante series buggy with virtually all the hops-ups included in the kit. It was a spare-no-expense exotic car at the time.

The Avante 2001 can be seen, in some ways, as a budget version of the Egress. The titanium fasteners and graphite chassis were omitted for standard screws and FRP chassis decks in the style/shape of the Egress ones along with other parts. There were some minor tweaks, like a revised steering bridge. They did go back to the heavier, Cam Loc wheels (now in white instead of orange) to try to tie the car visually to the original Avante. Whether the 2001 was meant to go anywhere or was just getting some more mileage out of the chassis is up for debate. I imagine the Manta Ray/ DF01/Top Force was bound to be Tamiya 4wd way forward by this time. 

[Willy iine 18805]

Excellent history lesson, @Saito2! 

I did not know the Avante 2001 even existed until just recently when you mentioned the history on another thread some time ago.   When manufacturers start releasing watered down versions of their legendary releases just to squeeze milage out of their tools and deplete dead stock, we start to worry whether the company is going out of business.  

I think by early 2000's the sedan racing era ended and people were wondering whether Tamiya would even continue RC..  maybe just me.  I was completely away from RC by that time (2001-2015) so lots of gaps in my head..     

 

1986-1995 was my first hiatus from RC (completely missed the Avante/Egress release.. didn't have money anyway).. 

 

 

[naturbo2000 1271]

@Willy iine - note that the Avante 2001 actually released in 1990, so only a year after the Egress (maybe less). Plenty before the Manta Ray and Top Force.

The habit at the time was definitely to release a budget bathtub version of every racing fibre chassis car (sometimes beforehand!). The Avante 2001 is an interesting budget model, still having a double deck fibre chassis instead of Vanquish bathtub.

[slateman84 5]

Thank you all for your kind advise and feedback. I think I can now safely say that I’ll keep the Avante BS and hopefully will build it during this Winter Season - together with the Optima Mid of course :-)

[Gabranth 216]

Yeah Avante 2001 name can be confusing to some, but I know very well it's not from the year 2001 because I owned Mini4WD version of Avante 2001 before that year.

Now with people calling Avante re-release as "Avante 2011" it's even more confusing

[Saito2 6686]

On 11/5/2022 at 7:11 PM, Gabranth said:

Yeah Avante 2001 name can be confusing to some, but I know very well it's not from the year 2001 because I owned Mini4WD version of Avante 2001 before that year.

Now with people calling Avante re-release as "Avante 2011" it's even more confusing

I agree. Many other re-releases have dates on them and we simply refer to them as a re-re Top Force or a re-release Monster Beetle. The one model which has a year in the name of one of its descendants (Avante 2001) and for some reason we call the re-release of the original Avante the the Avante 2011. I'm always doing double takes when I'm reading about them now, lol. 

[GTodd 1348]

Guys unless you are tracking the two the choice is based on desire. The Avante is a FANTASTIC back yard , casual track rat, and playground runner. If you are going for all out lap times and want the best vintage track rat than look toward the Optima Mid. If track is your focus and want to stay tamiya go EVO.