What first step into crawler world?

[BuggyDad]

Apologies, this (probably) isn't Tamiya, but hey, this forum feels like home - I'd feel all wrong joining any others!

We've been very quiet on RC all summer, focusing on other stuff, riding bikes, working, etc etc. But now coming into the colder months and tidying up my office/workshop a bit, I feel the itch to get back into RC. And next I think is a crawler (well, two most likely - I think my son and I will do one each, thus also taking care of the big Christmas present). We live on a sort of old smallholding/building site so the scope for obstacles is pretty good, much more crawler than buggy territory mostly.

I am definitely not an RTR guy. Building is more than half of it for me/us. So, kit(s) for sure.

My research to date has given me a marginal preference towards Element Enduro. Quality; reasonable value for what it is; Associated seems a good option from my B64 experirnce. Carisma is cheaper but not by that much.

But what say you? Am I missing something else I should be looking at?

And finally, we'll buy kit, ESC, motor, servo and, if not included, wheels and tyres, so recommendations on those extras would be most welcome. Expectation is to run existing radio gear and 2S standard size LiPos. Crawler motors is a whole new area for me. 

Anyhow, hope you're all well. I've been away a few months. It's nice to be back!

[BuggyDad]

Oh, and that "Black Friday" nonsense. I've got onto this now because I guess there's half a chance tomorrow might be a good day to buy. Haven't seen any deals pop up so far though. 

[sosidge]

Enduro is an excellent choice. They've just announced a new, cheaper version of the platform which might be worth looking out for.

This part of the market is dominated by RTRs. If you try and build from a kit you will spend a lot more money to get something that is hardly any better. Just to give you fair warning.

[BuggyDad]

16 minutes ago, sosidge said:

This part of the market is dominated by RTRs. If you try and build from a kit you will spend a lot more money to get something that is hardly any better. Just to give you fair warning.

Yeah I clocked that, although I hadn't quantified it in £ terms. There are some upgrades in kits over RTRs, but I feel like I need to own and build one before I really get what they're all about and whether I want those upgrades. And then I circle back round to the pretty immovable fact that I'm buying kits whatever, because for me it's kits or nothing. So I think it's simpler and still valid simply to compare only kits and ignore the whole RTR part (majority) of the market. 

That said, I suspect a kit plus my choice of ESC, motor and wheels will give me a platform from which I have much less of a desire to hop up than I did with eg DT-03. Although I can see it wearing many different bodies, perhaps. 

[BuggyDad]

28 minutes ago, sosidge said:

They've just announced a new, cheaper version of the platform which might be worth looking out for.

Is that the "SE"? 

[Mad Ax]

Welcome to the crawler world!  I definitely enjoy my crawlers a lot more in the winter when it's harder to run other stuff.  I find crawling the most fun of the RC pursuits to do alone, and if you've got friends with crawlers it's much easier to arrange a last-minute ad-hoc crawl than it is to arrange a touring car or buggy bash.  Plus they're never really finished, with so many scale parts and custom options you can add later.

I think you're going about it the right way - I don't like RTRs either and for me, building is at least 80% of the fun.  Yes, it will cost you a lot more to get going, but I think it'll be worth it.

I can give you advice based on what I have and what I do - apologies if this is way more info and detail than you were after:

Element Enduro Builder's Kit (1 and 2) - see my 6x6 Top Secret thread.  Not run this one yet as it's still being built, but the assembly was great fun.  Be warned - standard screws in the Kit 2 box are made of cheese, it's advisable to get an M2 tap for the transmission assembly and possibly some stainless M2 countersunk screws also.  Overdriven front axle is a nice feature and it's got buckets of steering angle.  Modular design makes for easy mods, and all the main parts are available as assemblies.  Optional independent front suspension package is a neat feature for those who want something different.  Some people report issues with the pinion bearings in the axles - apparently you can have the bearing recesses bored out to take 1150 bearings instead of the smaller ones supplied, if you know a machinist.  I haven't bothered on mine.

MST CFX-W - a great-looking and well-featured rig, with front motor transmission and portals.  The big camber angle isn't to everyone's tastes but it offsets the higher CoG caused by the portals when side-hilling.  Stock tyres are terrible on rock.  The smaller MSTs (CMX and CFX) are also supposed to be great performers, and were made to fit Tamiya hardbodies.  They're narrower and don't have the portals or camber but if you want something on the scale end without breaking the bank, they're well worth a look.  MST driveshafts are weak.

Gmade BOM - the older GS-01 chassis.  A nice-looking truck with a gorgeous cage and lots of unique features (e.g. TTS transmission) mounted to a back-end that can't cope with the weight.  Other Gmade rigs are available with conventional rear suspension, I'm personally a big fan of the Buffalo and would get one if I didn't already have 3 good running crawlers and some projects.  Less modular than other rigs, so harder to modify without a hacksaw.  Stock tyres are quite simply astounding - as good as the much more expensive Proline Hyraxes on slippery rock and saves you a packet buying aftermarket tyres.

SCX10 G6 Edition - this is ancient and not available, but still a hugely competitive crawler, if the other two can get over it, this will as well.  It's only real flaw is the lack of steering angle.  Newer SCX10 models are just as good but with more features and better turning radius.  SCX10 II raw builders kit is very good.

I can't comment on any of the others as I don't have them, but the TRX-4 Sport kit is on my wishlist along with the Gmade Buffalo and the Element Gatekeeper.

Other thoughts:

Tyres - it's all about the tyres, and they are expensive.  Yes, really expensive.   Proline Hyraxes are my weapon of choice, but the Gmade MT-1904s are great performers and much cheaper (they are not a scale replica but do have a nice 80s balloon look, if that's your thing).  Lots of sizes available too - think about if you want high clearance for getting over obstacles, or a smaller tyre for more scale looks and performance.  Remember you can fit 1.7" or 1.55" wheels too, for that more scale look.  My favourite supplier for wheels and tyres is rcbitz.co.uk although you can get some really nice beadlock wheels from Asiatees (Boom Racing are good)

Servo - I use cheap 20Kg servos from Amazon.  You want lots of torque, not lots of speed.  Metal gears are a must.  Most crawler kits these days come with solid metal servo horns.  If yours doesn't, fit one.

ESC - the Hobbywing 1080 is the weapon of choice for most people.  Can take 3S power easily and has an optional 7.4V BEC - which gives you more torque for winches and steering.  Buy from a reputable seller, Ebay is littered with cheap clones that burn up after a few goes.  3S isn't essential for crawling, but the extra torque is nice for sticky sections and the extra speed on flat sections compensates for not having a 2 speed transmission, if you don't have a 2 speed transmission.  Whatever you get, a drag brake is essential.  I have mine set to 100%.

I can't comment on the brushless options, as I've never tried them, but they seem good if you're willing to spend the cash.

Motor - 55 turns is the mode.  I've got some very old Novak FiftyFive rebuildable motors, which look fantastic and have adjustable timing.  I've also got some really cheap RC4WD fixed can 55 turn motors.  Both seem to perform just as well as each other, although I have had an RC4WD motor go rusty and seize.  That said, I could replace that motor 3 times for the cost of a rebuildable 55 turn.  I've also got a couple of 5 slot motors (both 16 turn, IIRC).  The difference is small but noticeable - they do run smoother, and pick up nicer from a standstill, which gives more control on slow obstacles, but they're not a must-have.  My latest was Ruddog branded and was only £20.

Winches - IMO winching adds to the fun.  At the very least, I always advise building a rig with tow shackles front and rear and a good quality tow strap (kinetic tow straps add an extra dimension too - see overlandrc.co.uk for options) - that way if one of you gets stuck, the other can help with a tow.  With a winch, you can get yourself out of trouble.  A tent peg with a loop soldered on the top is a useful addition to your trail kit.  There's various options at different price points - unless you spend big money, the scale-looking winches tend to be gutless, and the switch modules are easily killed with water.  I personally favour servo winches (£22.50 from overlandrc.co.uk) because they're strong, self-contained, plug straight into your radio and you can mount them neatly under the body.  See the latest posts on my 6x6 Top Secret thread.

Trail Kit - I always take a small hiking rucksack with some essential tools.  Drivers, side cutters, cable ties, tow straps, electrical tape.  Spare batteries for rig and radio.  Bungee chords, in case the rig breaks beyond repair, you can strap it to your rucksack instead of having to carry it.  Tissues and wet wipes.  Power pack for your mobile phone, plus maps, compass and phrasebook, in case you wander over the county boundary.  A water pouch and, most importantly, a high calorie trail snack such as a Mars Bar or Snickers, because everybody knows that hiking is basically an excuse to eat more chocolate.  With a couple of high-capacity batteries you can easily be out in the woods for several hours.

[Nikko85]

I've got zero experience with any of these, although I am trying to make a scale MF01x trail truck that can do light crawling.

How does the CR01 compare if you like kits (and Tamiya)?

 

[BuggyDad]

Amazing in depth advice there @Mad Ax, very much appreciated!

The shopping list grows. I'm pretty certain we'll go Element Enduro. There's the builder's kit 2 and the Gatekeeper kit, which is +£30odd but comes with a body shell, so is perhaps overall similar money, depending on choice of body and what other differences there are. 

Do you know what are the real difference between the two? The Gatekeeper has a slightly different suspension layout with the trailing arms in place of the bottom links on the rear, with the shocks mounting to the arms rather than the axle, but what difference does this make in practice? It doesn't look to my layman's eyes like it would be that different? 

Depending on what I learn about the differences, it could be fun to buy one of each, to end up with two different trucks off the same platform, so plenty of commonality in spares, upgrades etc. but with some fundamental differences too. 

[BuggyDad]

1 hour ago, Mad Ax said:

Element Enduro Builder's Kit (1 and 2) - see my 6x6 Top Secret thread.  Not run this one yet as it's still being built, but the assembly was great fun.  Be warned - standard screws in the Kit 2 box are made of cheese, it's advisable to get an M2 tap for the transmission assembly and possibly some stainless M2 countersunk screws also.  

I'm loving that thread by the way. I was skimming through it last night mostly wondering how the badword you were going to get drive the rear axle. Will make time for a proper read. Would love to see that truck driving. 

If you know the lengths of the screws that need replacing I'd be interested to know to get them ordered same time. I've got a set of taps so can use them for assembly throughout if necessary. Actually, come to think of it I might have some M2s from B64 diffs. Presume these are for diffs/spur gears? 

[BuggyDad]

18 minutes ago, Nikko85 said:

How does the CR01 compare if you like kits (and Tamiya)?

It's in the same ballpark (ish) money wise. So my gut feel was it might be materially less strong/capable for only a bit less money. And knowing Tamiya I might take it over the Element price with hop ups right from the off? I haven't researched either point properly though, so I can't say that with authority. To be quite honest, from my experience so far which is mostly Tamiya with a little Associated and a sprinkling of childhood Kyosho, I am not particularly more wedded to one brand than another and would look to choose a model on its own merits. 

[Mad Ax]

14 minutes ago, BuggyDad said:

Do you know what are the real difference between the two? The Gatekeeper has a slightly different suspension layout with the trailing arms in place of the bottom links on the rear, with the shocks mounting to the arms rather than the axle, but what difference does this make in practice? It doesn't look to my layman's eyes like it would be that different? 

In practical terms, the difference is fairly minimal.  The Gatekeeper is supposed to be a rock racer / rock bouncer, the Builder's Kit is geared more for scale pickup / SUV builds, although you can build pretty much whatever you want with either chassis.  The longer trailing arms and forward-mounted rear shocks must give a more progressive suspension on the rear, I would guess the stock springs are much stiffer to counteract the change in dimensions, otherwise it would be dragging on the ground all the time.  It's also got a sway bar on the rear, which a generic crawler doesn't have.  My guess is the Gatekeeper is set up for a little more speed, and will be more composed if you put in a faster motor and do steep hillclimbs.

It would actually be very interesting to try both kits side-by-side and see how different they handle, and if the Gatekeeper is as good crawling over rocks as the Builder's Kit.  If you were going to buy two trucks but didn't want to be identical, this would be a great way to do it as there's loads of common parts.  The forward-mounted shock towers for the Gatekeeper are included on the Builder's Kit 2 parts tree, so presumably the regular shock towers are included on the Gatekeeper parts tree.  So you've already got at least one set of spares there.

5 minutes ago, BuggyDad said:

If you know the lengths of the screws that need replacing I'd be interested to know to get them ordered same time. I've got a set of taps so can use them for assembly throughout if necessary. Actually, come to think of it I might have some M2s from B64 diffs. Presume these are for diffs/spur gears? 

Off the top of my head I can't remember, but the screw sizes are listed in the build manual so I'll check sometime this weekend.  I think I needed two different lengths of M2 countersunk screws.  The ones I had real trouble with were in the gearbox, where a nylon gear is screwed onto a metal flange.  The stock screws went half-way in before the heads stripped and I had to slot them to get them out.  I then tapped the nylon before reassembling with stainless screws.

As with most modern cars, there's an awful lot of machine-thread-into-plastic assembly which gets tiring on the arm.  I recently ordered some good quality hex bits for my electric screwdriver, but I always start off and finish off with a hand driver, I just use the electric for winding the bulk of the thread in.

[Nikko85]

4 minutes ago, BuggyDad said:

It's in the same ballpark (ish) money wise. So my gut feel was it might be materially less strong/capable for only a bit less money. And knowing Tamiya I might take it over the Element price with hop ups right from the off? I haven't researched either point properly though, so I can't say that with authority. To be quite honest, from my experience so far which is mostly Tamiya with a little Associated and a sprinkling of childhood Kyosho, I am not particularly more wedded to one brand than another and would look to choose a model on its own merits. 

Of course. My only thought was that Tamiya seem to offer a nicer build than most! I personally really like the look of the rock socker (although not that scale) but I'm interested to know how it compares. 

[BuggyDad]

Another question on the CR01: what's going on with those springs and separate linkage-driven dampers? I wonder why they designed it that way? Maybe it eliminates the need for taller shock towers that would have to come through the bed of a pickup body? 

[Badcrumble]

12 hours ago, BuggyDad said:

Is that the "SE"? 

It is, nice entry level truck with plenty of room for 'upgrades' if SBG is to be believed

Not a kit though.

The CR-01 is a kit but is quite a different animal to a regular crawler given the gearing and damper set-up. The cantilever kit is a nod to the proper rock crawler scene rather than the 'scale trail rig' Element, SCX10ii

Discussion on the merits of the CR-01 here...

I don't have a 313mm crawler built to compare (SCX10iii still yet to build) but the CR-01 is totally different to my 275mm GCM Skeleton Jeep. 

Admittedly, I ditched the cantilever set-up on the CR-01 and stuck it on 3S with monster truck wheels and tyres!

Welcome down the rabbit hole... 

[Badcrumble]

7 minutes ago, BuggyDad said:

Another question on the CR01: what's going on with those springs and separate linkage-driven dampers? I wonder why they designed it that way? Maybe it eliminates the need for taller shock towers that would have to come through the bed of a pickup body? 

As the the kids would say... Because Tamiya 

[BuggyDad]

19 minutes ago, Mad Ax said:

In practical terms, the difference is fairly minimal.  The Gatekeeper is supposed to be a rock racer / rock bouncer, the Builder's Kit is geared more for scale pickup / SUV builds, although you can build pretty much whatever you want with either chassis.  The longer trailing arms and forward-mounted rear shocks must give a more progressive suspension on the rear, I would guess the stock springs are much stiffer to counteract the change in dimensions, otherwise it would be dragging on the ground all the time.  It's also got a sway bar on the rear, which a generic crawler doesn't have.  My guess is the Gatekeeper is set up for a little more speed, and will be more composed if you put in a faster motor and do steep hillclimbs.

It would actually be very interesting to try both kits side-by-side and see how different they handle, and if the Gatekeeper is as good crawling over rocks as the Builder's Kit.  If you were going to buy two trucks but didn't want to be identical, this would be a great way to do it as there's loads of common parts.  The forward-mounted shock towers for the Gatekeeper are included on the Builder's Kit 2 parts tree, so presumably the regular shock towers are included on the Gatekeeper parts tree.  So you've already got at least one set of spares there.

Off the top of my head I can't remember, but the screw sizes are listed in the build manual so I'll check sometime this weekend.  I think I needed two different lengths of M2 countersunk screws.  The ones I had real trouble with were in the gearbox, where a nylon gear is screwed onto a metal flange.  The stock screws went half-way in before the heads stripped and I had to slot them to get them out.  I then tapped the nylon before reassembling with stainless screws.

As with most modern cars, there's an awful lot of machine-thread-into-plastic assembly which gets tiring on the arm.  I recently ordered some good quality hex bits for my electric screwdriver, but I always start off and finish off with a hand driver, I just use the electric for winding the bulk of the thread in.

I think the idea of getting both is quite interesting then. Gatekeeper for the boy, with its included body, and I can mull over body options separately. Same wheels, tyres and electrics and everything else on both.

Any reason not to go to Aliexpress for wheels? https://a.aliexpress.com/_m0syoKg

I've got time to ship from China so will probably pick up servos that way too. 

 

 

[Mad Ax]

37 minutes ago, BuggyDad said:

Any reason not to go to Aliexpress for wheels? https://a.aliexpress.com/_m0syoKg

I think the biggest risk with Aliexpress is variable quality.  On balance, they will probably be fine, but IME you've got a higher chance of a bad product than with somewhere like Asiatees, where you'll spend more for a brand name.

The main issue I would worry about are the supplied screws being made of cheese (easy enough to replace but looks like there's 36 per wheel) and the threads in the alloy being mullered from the factory, as I've had with unbranded Chinese products in the last couple of months.

[sosidge]

1 hour ago, BuggyDad said:

Amazing in depth advice there @Mad Ax, very much appreciated!

The shopping list grows. I'm pretty certain we'll go Element Enduro. There's the builder's kit 2 and the Gatekeeper kit, which is +£30odd but comes with a body shell, so is perhaps overall similar money, depending on choice of body and what other differences there are. 

Do you know what are the real difference between the two? The Gatekeeper has a slightly different suspension layout with the trailing arms in place of the bottom links on the rear, with the shocks mounting to the arms rather than the axle, but what difference does this make in practice? It doesn't look to my layman's eyes like it would be that different? 

Depending on what I learn about the differences, it could be fun to buy one of each, to end up with two different trucks off the same platform, so plenty of commonality in spares, upgrades etc. but with some fundamental differences too. 

Unless you like the cage body, I would not recommend the Gatekeeper. It has a non-standard wheelbase (12.8") and suspension/body mounts so if you want to fit a standard truck body (most are 12.3" wheelbase) you will have to buy a lot of extra parts.

And although they pitch it as a "rock racer" it's not, it's the same speed/stability as a normal crawler. i.e. not fast and not stable at speed.

This is why there are lots of Gatekeeper kits on special offer. Element missed the mark with that release.

Builders Kit 2 is good, I have one.

[BuggyDad]

39 minutes ago, sosidge said:

Unless you like the cage body, I would not recommend the Gatekeeper. It has a non-standard wheelbase (12.8") and suspension/body mounts so if you want to fit a standard truck body (most are 12.3" wheelbase) you will have to buy a lot of extra parts.

Is there a standard set of positions for body mounts to make bodies really easy to fit across different crawler chassis? Interesting. Numpty question I guess - I'm totally new to the crawler thing. 

I do quite like the cage body. It's a bit different. And for my son I don't think realistically we're going to be chasing scale detail if we fit something else, so some extra cutting is not a biggie. 

Where are you seeing Gatekeeper offers? 

So far I'm seeing quite similar between the two:

Builders kit RRP £260, deals around £230

Gatekeeper kit RRP £300, deals from £266

 

Is the Gatekeeper a less good crawler than standard? 

[BuggyDad]

1 hour ago, Mad Ax said:

The main issue I would worry about are the supplied screws being made of cheese (easy enough to replace but looks like there's 36 per wheel) and the threads in the alloy being mullered from the factory, as I've had with unbranded Chinese products in the last couple of months.

Good point. May not be cheap enough to take that risk.

Recommendations for budget but decent wheels gratefully received! 

[sosidge]

25 minutes ago, BuggyDad said:

Is there a standard set of positions for body mounts to make bodies really easy to fit across different crawler chassis? Interesting. Numpty question I guess - I'm totally new to the crawler thing. 

I do quite like the cage body. It's a bit different. And for my son I don't think realistically we're going to be chasing scale detail if we fit something else, so some extra cutting is not a biggie. 

Where are you seeing Gatekeeper offers? 

So far I'm seeing quite similar between the two:

Builders kit RRP £260, deals around £230

Gatekeeper kit RRP £300, deals from £266

 

Is the Gatekeeper a less good crawler than standard? 

No, bodies mount positions are not standard across the industry. But the Gatekeeper has no conventional body mounts.

Bodies are not as interchangeable as you might think. Combining them with the right bumpers is quite important for a good "look", and bumpers are not as interchangeable between different manufacturers as you would think either! Tyre diameter makes a big difference too.

Basically I have spent a lot of money on bodies, tyres and accessories to find a combination that fits well and looks scale-ish on my kits. RTRs tend to nail this out of the box.

[BuggyDad]

3 minutes ago, sosidge said:

No, bodies mount positions are not standard across the industry. But the Gatekeeper has no conventional body mounts.

Bodies are not as interchangeable as you might think. Combining them with the right bumpers is quite important for a good "look", and bumpers are not as interchangeable between different manufacturers as you would think either! Tyre diameter makes a big difference too.

Basically I have spent a lot of money on bodies, tyres and accessories to find a combination that fits well and looks scale-ish on my kits. RTRs tend to nail this out of the box.

More as I expected. Sorry misunderstood. I guess with the builders kit the practical choice then is to buy an Element Enduro shell of one flavour or another. 

[sosidge]

32 minutes ago, BuggyDad said:

More as I expected. Sorry misunderstood. I guess with the builders kit the practical choice then is to buy an Element Enduro shell of one flavour or another. 

You can be quite flexible on your first shell choice, the Element shells are all unlicensed so I wouldn't necessarily buy one on its own (quite expensive as well), so someone like Pro-line is a better starting point (although they are variable, some of them don't look very good, most of them lack any scale mouldings like mirrors).

It's more a case of you will spend quite a lot of time and money getting the body to look "just right" on the chassis, and you won't then be able to put it on anything else when you're done.

There's quite a big community of people doing "builds" and normally the build is the whole truck rather than just a shell.

For what it's worth I have a Pro-line Jeep Wrangler and a Pro-line Hilux that fit my Builders kit, a GMade with a GMade body (actually two bodies) that wouldn't fit on my Element without modifications, and a Pro-line Cliffhanger on my LCG crawler.

[sosidge]

40 minutes ago, BuggyDad said:

More as I expected. Sorry misunderstood. I guess with the builders kit the practical choice then is to buy an Element Enduro shell of one flavour or another. 

Oh and also the Builders Kit 2 has higher shock towers than a standard enduro which might mean the rear bed of a pickup body needs extra trimming, even one that fits a standard Enduro (e.g, sendero)

[sosidge]

I probably sound a bit negative but I don't mean to be! RC crawling is a great part of the hobby - the only non-racing part of the hobby that has kept my interest for more than 5 minutes.

Batteries last for hours so a walk around the woods with an RC is actually a viable afternoon out of the house. Because they're slow and very capable all sorts of terrain can become an interesting challenge. There are lots of group meetups and organised events. And if you're into scale modelling you can make them look very realistic.

It's just that if you are a kit builder (like me), it's much more effort. The RTRs are cheaper and do a really good job - that's why they make up the vast majority of sales. And even very experienced crawler enthusiasts buy RTRs because they like the body or the new features.