What first step into crawler world?

[Frog Jumper]

Totally left field and I’ll be laughed out of the room but…

I love my CC02.  I’ve had a lot of fun modding and tweaking it.  And I love driving it when we walk to dog on the greenway.  Lots of roots and rocks and a nice creek.

Admittedly, it’s my only experience with a crawler so I can’t make a fair comparison vs. other models from other manufacturers.

Terry

 

[sosidge]

18 minutes ago, Frog Jumper said:

Totally left field and I’ll be laughed out of the room but…

I love my CC02.  I’ve had a lot of fun modding and tweaking it.  And I love driving it when we walk to dog on the greenway.  Lots of roots and rocks and a nice creek.

Admittedly, it’s my only experience with a crawler so I can’t make a fair comparison vs. other models from other manufacturers.

Terry

 

Nothing laughable about a CC-02.

Main thing to bear in mind is that they are a lot smaller than the American brand trucks, so aren't as capable. They have a low spec out of the box too and limited upgrades.

[sosidge]

4 hours ago, BuggyDad said:

Another question on the CR01: what's going on with those springs and separate linkage-driven dampers? I wonder why they designed it that way? Maybe it eliminates the need for taller shock towers that would have to come through the bed of a pickup body? 

The CR-01 takes a different approach. It's much older, and uses a "TVP" chassis which is what was common a decade or more ago. You rarely see that style of crawler now.

Most popular style these days is a "scale" crawler with chassis rails and a more realistic appearance.

[Frog Jumper]

1 hour ago, sosidge said:

Nothing laughable about a CC-02.

Main thing to bear in mind is that they are a lot smaller than the American brand trucks, so aren't as capable. They have a low spec out of the box too and limited upgrades.

Yeah, about 25% smaller, ie 313mm down to 257mm.  Not very well suited to the existing US Crawler market, but it works well with the bodies that Tamiya has out already for their CC01, etc.  I'm running a Parma lexan Blackfoot body.

And I'm disappointed in the lack of hop-ups and add-ons in the US, or rather, I'm disappointed that the items I find in Japan are not being sold in the US...  Where is my Eagle Racing bling?!?  I suppose its a simple truck so most of the goodies go on the outside on the body...

Its 72F here in Raleigh.  I might have to go for a drive this afternoon...

Terry

 

[BuggyDad]

2 hours ago, Frog Jumper said:

Totally left field and I’ll be laughed out of the room but…

I love my CC02.  I’ve had a lot of fun modding and tweaking it.  And I love driving it when we walk to dog on the greenway.  Lots of roots and rocks and a nice creek.

Admittedly, it’s my only experience with a crawler so I can’t make a fair comparison vs. other models from other manufacturers.

Terry

 

I quite like the look of something genuinely scale like the CC-02 actually, but my gut feel is that practically we will get more out of a bigger and longer travel vehicle so an American style out-and-out off roader type truck is probably more "us". Our terrain is such that I suspect there'll be more to go at with something bigger. 

For me there's also a sort of other worldliness in this style of truck that scratches a different itch. Like buggies, it's something we can only really imagine in the UK on an RC scale. 

We went to Utah last Easter, and in Moab there was a festival for off-roaders going on. Big modded crawler things everywhere we looked. Gave me no desire to get involved on a 1:1 scale, in fact I found it quite concerning, but in a parallel universe where climate change wasn't a thing the engineer in me would've been all over it, so to electrify it and divide it by 10 (technically by 10x10x10) is perhaps my version of that indulgence. 

[alvinlwh]

7 hours ago, Mad Ax said:

there's an awful lot of machine-thread-into-plastic assembly which gets tiring on the arm

I nearly killed my hand doing the MTX-1 recently! 🤣

[BuggyDad]

I guess 2nd hand is also an option. I'd much prefer to build a kit but a built model 2nd hand is for some reason much more appealing to me than RTR. So, probably a red herring but should I consider @Busdriver's GMade GOM? It would come in at about half the cost of an Enduro kit plus wheels and body. 

 

[Busdriver]

Good question, as I’ve said in my sales thread I bought it to do something it wasn’t really designed to do . I over powered it. From what I can see it would make a good crawler, maybe a little tippy but a good start. Apart from electrics everything is in the box. You can build it with fixed single speed transmission to start and use 2 channel radio. Then you can upgrade to 3 channel and 2 speed and DIG function. I don’t know much about thoroughbred crawlers and what class it falls into but it’s got 2.2 inch wheels and tall tyres. Most of the scale crawlers are 1.9 inch wheels I believe. I know you want to build but I have just bought a RTR Axial Deadbolt. It’s their entry level crawler and is pretty good out of the box. It is also easily upgradable as you go along. Frankly I wish I had bought it before I bought the GOM as I think it’s a better learning vehicle. If I don’t get an offer for the GOM I’ll get a crawler motor and esc and have another go once I’ve got more experience. 

[BuggyDad]

Perhaps wiser for me to stay in the sort of mainstream category of 1.9" wheels on the likes of Element Enduro, Axial SCX10, or similar. If nothing else I find myself influenced by just how often the same short list of models is compared online. Plus there's an advantage in there being so few kits rather than RTRs. I feel like if I open myself up to the whole market my brain might explode. 

[BuggyDad]

These look like a decent crawler wheel option? 

https://www.injora.com/products/4pcs-1-9-aluminum-alloy-beadlock-wheel-rims-for-1-10-rc-crawler?variant=39449069223984

From my flicking through American youtubers it seems like Injora is a known quantity rather than poorly produced knock-offs, and they are also both a bit more money and bought directly rather than through the mask of aliexpress. Otherwise wheels are a surprisingly pricey part of the project. Unless I just go for plastic, but I do like the idea of beadlock in place of glue and it makes sense to me to have a bit of weight down there. 

[Frog Jumper]

1 hour ago, BuggyDad said:

These look like a decent crawler wheel option? 

https://www.injora.com/products/4pcs-1-9-aluminum-alloy-beadlock-wheel-rims-for-1-10-rc-crawler?variant=39449069223984

From my flicking through American youtubers it seems like Injora is a known quantity rather than poorly produced knock-offs, and they are also both a bit more money and bought directly rather than through the mask of aliexpress. Otherwise wheels are a surprisingly pricey part of the project. Unless I just go for plastic, but I do like the idea of beadlock in place of glue and it makes sense to me to have a bit of weight down there. 

I just bought 2 pairs of 2.2 plastic bead locks at my LHS for $1 each. He said everyone wants metal wheels bc of the weight.  I’m planning on using them on my Bushy D or Dragon so I wanted plastic.

[BuggyDad]

There's a lot to go at on the Injora website. I think I'll get those wheels but they also look like as good a source as any for servos and maybe also motors. And I like the look of their magnetic body mounts, so will give them a try I think. I'd been meaning to have a go at magnetic body mounts for a while. 

On motors, is 550 the size of choice? Eg:

https://www.injora.com/products/injora-550-5-slot-waterproof-brushed-motor-10t-15t-20t-25t-for-1-10-rc-crawlers-inm08?variant=43746046640415

I think we should stick with Lexan bodies for now though. Injora's defender hard bodies look amazing but I don't think stuff like that is really for us at this point. That way we can have fun with a car's looks, it be a bit more a product of our creativity, but still not mind breakages. 

 

[OldSchoolRC1]

Welcome to the rabbit hole! I caution you, scale trucks can suck you in and drain your wallet! I had no idea what I was unleashing back in '08 or so when I converted over my TLT into a trail truck. I've been out on the trails ever since. 

You're getting great advice, there's a ton of options out there nowadays, and it can get hairy when you are just jumping in. A few thoughts:

I agree the CR01 is out of the mainstream compared to most 1.9 crawlers. However, it is a fantastic build and can be quite capable with a little work. Typical Tamiya overengineering with the suspension, but a more standard shock setup is easily adapted. Personally, I like to keep the spring and add a stand up shock next to it - just looks awesome working it's way along the trail. However, it's biggest drawback is steering...there just isn't much, and I've never seen CVD's for the front axle. I use 4WS on 2 of mine and it makes a huge difference, but it's not very scale. For the Tamiya guy who wants to get out on trail runs, but isn't really into competing now or ever, it's a fun truck. 

The Element trucks are excellent. Really, no matter which one you get, they are great starting points. Very smooth and quiet, and decent performers right out of the box.  As Mad Ax said the only really hairy part is the little 2mm screws in the transmission can be a bear, but take your time, install them once and you'll never have to worry about them again. The fact that they even offer kits is outstanding in this age of RTR. I've got three, all built from kits, and all quite different. It is a very versatile platform. 

Axial used to be the 300lb gorilla so to speak, and maybe it still is. But others have caught up. Some if the V2 kits were pretty good, the V3 though, I'm not overly impressed. Seems like they were trying to be Traxxas but didn't quite make it. They do have quite a few offerings that are good though, it's not on your list but worth a look. 

I held out when the TRX4 came out, and I have no idea why. It's a seriously good trail truck. I've got 4 now, plus an X6 - all built different, and could build another 4. There's just so much aftermarket for them, you could easily build a TRX4 based truck without a single Traxxas part. Working your way down the trail in high gear and open diffs, then downshifting, locking up an axle (or two) and working your way through the rough stuff is trail magic. They even have cruise control, which sounds gimmicky but I found it surprisingly useful. They can be built for the long trail runs or built to perform, 4x4 or 6x6, portals or no portals, etc.... Personally I think it's the benchmark as far as trail trucks go. 

MST offerings are all very good, there's some very scale offerings from Boom and RC4WD (Reminds me of Tamiya, but much lower quality), plus the dozens of other companies out there - FMS, Vanquish, Gmade,  Redcat, etc. 

Be aware of the "you need" syndrome, it pops up with trail trucks all the time. You need a 500oz servo, you need brushless, you need 3, 4S, brass, aluminum, and on and on. Hogwash. A simple brushed motor and $40 ESC on 2S  will do just fine to get going. I've gotten a lot of former bashers into the crawling world and my advice to them is get a running truck, whether RTR or build your own,  and get out and run a few times. You'll find out what you need pretty quickly, and then upgrade accordingly. 

 

 

 

[Badcrumble]

If you are looking at crawler motors, you'll probably come across Holmes Hobbies. You can get them in the UK from Red Winches. A basic Trailmaster Sport isn't that expensive but well regarded. 

https://www.red-winches.com/product-category/red-winches-rc-crawler-holmes-hobbies-team-garage-hack-crawlmaster-2low/holmes-hobbies/

Though I imported my last motor and ESC from AMain. The exchange rate was probably a bit better back then though.

HH has a chart which showing motors for which use and a list of recommendations for popular kits. The Enduro is on there.

https://holmeshobbies.com/motor-recommendations

John Holmes has lots of informative videos on YouTube.

I like the ScaleBuildersGuild reviews of vehicles too, they tend to be quite thorough.

I'm not knocking Injora, I have one of their gearboxes for a future build and have several of the 275mm Jeep hardbodies which are ridiculously good for the money.

There is a strong 'Scale Crawler & Replicas' forum on 'the other side'

https://www.msuk-forum.co.uk/forums/forum/101-scale-crawlers-replicas/

I think working out where it is going to be used the most helps work out whether you want a SWB or 313mm rig, 1.9 or 2.2 wheels. I started with 275mm and small tyres and soon regretted it when I got hung up on our rough lawn!

I'm sure you'll work out what works for you and have a lot of fun!

[BuggyDad]

10 hours ago, OldSchoolRC1 said:

Axial used to be the 300lb gorilla so to speak, and maybe it still is. But others have caught up. Some if the V2 kits were pretty good, the V3 though, I'm not overly impressed. Seems like they were trying to be Traxxas but didn't quite make it. They do have quite a few offerings that are good though, it's not on your list but worth a look. 

I held out when the TRX4 came out, and I have no idea why. It's a seriously good trail truck. I've got 4 now, plus an X6 - all built different, and could build another 4. There's just so much aftermarket for them, you could easily build a TRX4 based truck without a single Traxxas part. Working your way down the trail in high gear and open diffs, then downshifting, locking up an axle (or two) and working your way through the rough stuff is trail magic. They even have cruise control, which sounds gimmicky but I found it surprisingly useful. They can be built for the long trail runs or built to perform, 4x4 or 6x6, portals or no portals, etc.... Personally I think it's the benchmark as far as trail trucks go. 

Thank you for all this info. It is extremely helpful. 

If I'm absolutely honest, aside from a (modest I think) value for money advantage I can't really remember what got me to favour Element over the other big names here (and I haven't bought anything yet - we're a way off that - decision isn't made!). I suspect it's one of those things where for a first timer one just has to take a punt on something and only into the hobby might I become educated enough really to have a view in comparison terms. It all seems both a bit subjective and dependent on what we're going to do with them, as you point out. And we don't really know that yet either!

It does look to me though like I can achieve a good balance between value for money and pretty strong quality/performance. A solid platform and decent parts. No obvious shockers but lots of upgrade options. Somewhere around "to get significantly better I'd need to spend double" on the diminishing returns graph. 

[BuggyDad]

@Mad Ax and @OldSchoolRC1 are these 2.5x10mm and 2.5x14mm countersunk screws the troublesome ones?

 

[Mad Ax]

Yes - those are the ones that failed for me.  A tap and some stainless replacements and the problem was solved.

The rest of the screws are pretty soft, but you shouldn't have trouble if you've got good quality drivers.

[OldSchoolRC1]

Yes indeed.  41077 in particular. Tiny 1.5mm heads and thick nylon makes for a headache. I coated the screws in grease, it helped a ton. A tap would have been fantastic, but I don't have one in that size. 

On a side note, There's a machined steel gear set for the transmission from Element (ASC42032.) Completely eliminates the issue as the holes are already drilled and tapped in the gears. Just need a dab of threadlock and they are good to go. I don't use them per-se as they are quite heavy, but they absolutely bulletproof an already tough transmission.  

[BuggyDad]

Thank you all. Forewarned is forearmed and all that. 1.5mm heads are a weak thing pretty much by definition I'd say. But there are some in the XV-01 and they're all fine so I think all I need is decent quality screws.

I really like Wera Hex Plus keys/bits. They're the best I've encountered and I think they genuinely make a difference.

One could also go for torx in place of screws prone to rounding, although I don't think I'll feel the need. 

[BuggyDad]

On motors, the chassis options all take 550 so it kind of feels like I might as well start with a low cost 5 pole 550 motor. You're only talking ~£10 difference between the most budget options and these. Holmes Hobbies CrawlMaster Sport is £25, Injora options less. 

Any disadvantage to this, assuming I'm sticking with 2S? More torque presumably for any given battery? Shorter run times? I don't think I mind shortening an already pretty long run time. 

[OldSchoolRC1]

5 poles have generally smoother start up and a bit less RPM than a 3 pole. The trade off is less torque and brake force. I've never really noticed a difference in run time. 

I've since switched almost all of my crawlers and trail trucks to a Holmes Crawlmaster sport motor in the 10 or 12t variety and WP1080 ESC. Cost about $60 all in and plenty of smooth power - those motors are a steal at $20 imo. The low end control of a 5 pole is fantastic, I like to drive slow and scale for the most part and the Crawlmasters are perfect (I just ordered one for an E-maxx crawler..if it can push that beast, it can handle a 1/10 truck!) I've tried the more expensive brushless systems and they are certainly nice, but I've found I really don't need it to go 9mph.  IMHO of course.  

[BuggyDad]

4 hours ago, OldSchoolRC1 said:

5 poles have generally smoother start up and a bit less RPM than a 3 pole. The trade off is less torque and brake force. I've never really noticed a difference in run time. 

I've since switched almost all of my crawlers and trail trucks to a Holmes Crawlmaster sport motor in the 10 or 12t variety and WP1080 ESC. Cost about $60 all in and plenty of smooth power - those motors are a steal at $20 imo. The low end control of a 5 pole is fantastic, I like to drive slow and scale for the most part and the Crawlmasters are perfect (I just ordered one for an E-maxx crawler..if it can push that beast, it can handle a 1/10 truck!) I've tried the more expensive brushless systems and they are certainly nice, but I've found I really don't need it to go 9mph.  IMHO of course.  

Ah ha. Thanks. 

I was looking at this one:

https://www.holmeshobbies.co.uk/products/holmes-hobbies-crawlmaster-sport-550-10t

Think the UK distributor only has a subset of the range.

Or trying to find something broadly similar but cheaper, given I'm buying two and will be placing an order with Injora anyway. 

Another question for me is motor size. The chassis take 550. 550 gives higher torque, lower speed as I understand it, which sounds good. But it sounds like really the 550s get the extra torque only when you go to a 3S battery. If 550 isn't really "worse" than 540 on a 2S, I'd probably go 550 anyway, then I have the option to upgrade to 3S batteries at a later date without any other change. 

[BuggyDad]

Woo hoo! Picked up an Element Enduro Builders Kit 2 in a Black Fri deal. Still on the lookout for another for me, but this is my lad's Christmas present kicked off at least. And at £35 below any other deals I've seen recently I'm happy with the price and it makes it decent value I think. 

[Nicadraus]

On 11/11/2022 at 7:35 PM, Nikko85 said:

I've got zero experience with any of these, although I am trying to make a scale MF01x trail truck that can do light crawling.

How does the CR01 compare if you like kits (and Tamiya)?

 

Neither are good for either crawling/light crawling or trailing. 

[SupraChrgd82]

3 hours ago, BuggyDad said:

Woo hoo! Picked up an Element Enduro Builders Kit 2 in a Black Fri deal. Still on the lookout for another for me, but this is my lad's Christmas present kicked off at least. And at £35 below any other deals I've seen recently I'm happy with the price and it makes it decent value I think. 

Brilliant choice!  That’s a fantastic platform.  Drivetrain and suspension are buttery smooth and the 12.3” wheelbase makes it very stable.  Aftermarket support is excellent.  There will be no disappointments.