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ThunderDragonCy

New buggy design idea - vintage Mid 2wd. Thoughts appreciated

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So after @graemevw built his Ultra Grasshopper (GH1 version of my GH2 Ultra G), we got talking about his Super Astute and how it was lovely, but was always breaking and no spares support. So we got to thinking about developing a trans-swap buggy that would use vintage-ish parts with good availability, solve some performance and durability issues, and be able to fit an Astute or other cool vintage bodies.

Currently it's sitting as a twin deck carbon 2wd mid based broadly on Super Astute dims, but using a DF01/Top Force transmission, rear shock tower, rear suspension complete, and front arms for easy availability of parts. It would have a new 3D printed 25 deg kick up front block, 3D printed C hubs to join the top force front arms to grasshopper/F103 knuckles. Uses XV01 linkage steering adapted to suit, shorty lipo only with a few positioning options. 

Thing is, I already have a DF01 trans swap buggy in my Ultra Hornet. The DF01 trans is pretty strong and cheap for mild setups, and I haven't really missed a slipper because I don't like big jumps. It also has no anti squat and a couple of other less than ideal things.

On the one hand we wanted to create something with vintage feel and tech, but a few improvements and spares support. On the other hand, I have a bit of form with trans swaps, and with TD2/4 coming out we gave plentiful supply of Tamiya slipper clutches, good diffs, cheap, modern geometry arms, plus adjustable touring car suspension blocks, it would not be a huge step to keep the broad dimensions, cool old body compatibility, but put something properly modern in terms of trans and suspension underneath. In fact being carbon and simplified front suspension it might appeal to TD2 owners. 

As this might be something we could offer to others, and because we are both dithering a bit about which way to go, I want to ask you fine people: what would you go for? Vintage ish astute mid, or fairly up to date, fairly high end, tamiya based buggy you can put proper cool bodies on like Hornets, astute, dynastorm and all sorts of others? 

Suggestions ideas also welcome. Go for it! 
 

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I really like what you're doing with your mid, but it's not something I'd personally want to own.

I like some of the TD2 things. I assume the arms are stronger, and they're definitely more cheaply available. But I absolutely despise the new Astute and Super Avante body. Revive RC had done amazing work with his vision of an Avante, but the chassis itself is limiting due to it's significant depth.

Make a lithe TD2 (with yummy carbon?) and I'm very interested. If you can keep the lay-down shocks _and_ a low body, you can take my money now. I suspect that's an impossible ask though.

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I think this is a really exciting project. Although I'm not really in the market for another buggy, and I'm only an occasional player with cars, no racer, so you'd probably best ignore me, I love the pioneering nature of it. 

I hovered over a TD2 when it was a Tamico December offer. Ignoring the obvious fact that really I was pondering an entirely unnecessary purchase ("because it's a bargain" is a red flag for me), being unsure about layout and disliking the shell were my reservations. Sounds like your approach tackles these points. 

At the same time, if I was one to own vintage buggies I think the Astute would be very high up my list, if parts were available.

Refining and improving from a vintage start point, even if it's a lovely start point, does seem to me to open up a future parts supply issue as well as perhaps missing the opportunity to use some modern design thinking. Also, are higher end re-releases kind of covering this already? 

I like the idea of laydown shocks in some ways, but am wary of unnecessary complexity. I'd be interested to poke around a TD2/4 in the flesh to find out more. So you'd take TD arms etc but use a traditional shock tower to help open up choice of shell? 

Does higher end 2wd rc use grasshopper style knuckles and in-wheel bearings or hex on rotating axles, and what's regarded as best? It may be peculiar to me (and side benefits of the conversion perhaps) but I much prefer hex fronts on my DT-03, and when I can find more Schumacher Cougar bits will convert our other one. Looks like TD2 has hex fronts. 

So on balance, I'd vote for "up to date you can put vintage bodies on", I think, over "refine and improve from a vintage start point" 

Anyway, I'll watch your development with interest.  

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I think the TD2 is a pretty solid car - and will be available for years. Why not use that as a base - but modify it for vintage bodies?

I recently race a TD2, the main thing stopping it being super competitive is the weight distribution.

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3 hours ago, BuggyGuy said:

I think the TD2 is a pretty solid car - and will be available for years. Why not use that as a base - but modify it for vintage bodies?

I recently race a TD2, the main thing stopping it being super competitive is the weight distribution.

Good to know. Not sure if this will necessarily solve the weight distribution issue, but we are definitely aiming to be able to lipos in difference positions 

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20 hours ago, naturbo2000 said:

I really like what you're doing with your mid, but it's not something I'd personally want to own.

I like some of the TD2 things. I assume the arms are stronger, and they're definitely more cheaply available. But I absolutely despise the new Astute and Super Avante body. Revive RC had done amazing work with his vision of an Avante, but the chassis itself is limiting due to it's significant depth.

Make a lithe TD2 (with yummy carbon?) and I'm very interested. If you can keep the lay-down shocks _and_ a low body, you can take my money now. I suspect that's an impossible ask though.

The laydown shocks are one of the reasons for the bulkiness, and graeme and I both think the lack of front tower makes them look weird so we will definitely be doing a regular front shock setup. A Super Astute body is barely 33mm tall at the front. 

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4 hours ago, BuggyDad said:

I think this is a really exciting project. Although I'm not really in the market for another buggy, and I'm only an occasional player with cars, no racer, so you'd probably best ignore me, I love the pioneering nature of it. 

I hovered over a TD2 when it was a Tamico December offer. Ignoring the obvious fact that really I was pondering an entirely unnecessary purchase ("because it's a bargain" is a red flag for me), being unsure about layout and disliking the shell were my reservations. Sounds like your approach tackles these points. 

At the same time, if I was one to own vintage buggies I think the Astute would be very high up my list, if parts were available.

Refining and improving from a vintage start point, even if it's a lovely start point, does seem to me to open up a future parts supply issue as well as perhaps missing the opportunity to use some modern design thinking. Also, are higher end re-releases kind of covering this already? 

I like the idea of laydown shocks in some ways, but am wary of unnecessary complexity. I'd be interested to poke around a TD2/4 in the flesh to find out more. So you'd take TD arms etc but use a traditional shock tower to help open up choice of shell? 

Does higher end 2wd rc use grasshopper style knuckles and in-wheel bearings or hex on rotating axles, and what's regarded as best? It may be peculiar to me (and side benefits of the conversion perhaps) but I much prefer hex fronts on my DT-03, and when I can find more Schumacher Cougar bits will convert our other one. Looks like TD2 has hex fronts. 

So on balance, I'd vote for "up to date you can put vintage bodies on", I think, over "refine and improve from a vintage start point" 

Anyway, I'll watch your development with interest.  

Thanks for the thoughts. I agree about vintage type parts up to a point, but DF01/Top Force arms and trans have been in pretty much constant production since the early noughties, hence looking at using them. 

Interesting point on front hex. All my 2wd are bearing front and with JC Racing doing nice 2.2 these days I haven't felt the need to change, but it's a fair point. The GH knuckles are same same as F103 composite ones which are pretty nice. 

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31 minutes ago, ThunderDragonCy said:

The laydown shocks are one of the reasons for the bulkiness, and graeme and I both think the lack of front tower makes them look weird so we will definitely be doing a regular front shock setup. A Super Astute body is barely 33mm tall at the front. 

I totally agree and wouldn't mention it other than the Top Cat managed it (though was apparently a pig to set up as a result). I have a soft spot for how Tenth Technology got the shocks out of the way, not that I even saw one beyond photos. The CAT 2000EC/SE/98 also has extreme laydown shocks.

I'd best forget all the above, as I'm sensing I'll be talking myself into a project :lol:. In-board pushrod shocks on a mid-engined Dyna Storm? I definitely won't be investigating it.

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Just to give a bit of an idea, here's a screen grab of the current model

2037453376_GWCT2WDChassisAssemblyV1.thumb.JPG.8a0b27554f98db3b6c799f7184ea7e05.JPG

Clear structure is a Super Astute undertray near as I can measure it. Shorty lipos in blue in various positions. Top force arms, you can make out the twin deck, and the rear trans is a start on something with TD2 internals in either 3 gear or 4 gear options. Still needs a fair bit of work, but it's getting there. Wheelbase is 273 at full droop on the 25deg front kick up.

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This is a fantastic project. I can't add anything but will be following this one with interest 

Also, I think I've been reading @BuggyDad and @BuggyGuy posts as the same person and it wasn't until they posted here about not buying a TD2 but also racing a TD2 that I've clicked...

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A modernized vintage buggy would scratch my itch - all of the modern touches like materials quality, adjustability, lipo compatibility, wheel hexes, and so on, with vintage “playability” and good looks. 
 

I have a Super Astute too, and love everything about driving it, while lacking spares. Great buggy that needs to be modernized.

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I'd like to say "great minds think alike" but I think I'd be doing you both a diservice ;) as I've been tinkering with a very similar project. I was inspired by @Thommo's mid astute project as like him I have a bunch of spare Astute/Madcap parts and fancied making something interesting out of them. He too went with a Top Force rear transmission which was my initial plan along with designing a double deck chassis. But also like you, I'm not sure about the DF-01 being the best donor. I've got some spares for it already, so from that perspective it would make financial sense, plus it is reasonably available, but the lack of a slipper is causing some nagging in the back of my head. I know there are some TRF201 conversions out there, but realistically, the spares for that are just about in the unicorn stock levels, so I don't see a win there. A little while back I did a CW-01 with an M-06 gearbox, and I know some have put those in an Astute chassis too, but again, parts for that are not actually that easy to get hold of, so what to do? 

The TD2/4 is a great option for gear internals, but obviously there is no gearbox parts tree, which is where the appeal falls down for me personally, as I love the idea of mixing and matching existing parts rather than solely having to use 3D printed parts. That said, I know based on your previous gearbox printed parts you'll come up with something spectacular ;)

To answer your question rather than me just ramble on and on about my thoughts, I'd go for the modern chassis with old style bodies :)

Keep the ideas coming though, love reading about this sort of thing - well done!

 

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2 hours ago, jonboy1 said:

I'd like to say "great minds think alike" but I think I'd be doing you both a diservice ;) as I've been tinkering with a very similar project. I was inspired by @Thommo's mid astute project as like him I have a bunch of spare Astute/Madcap parts and fancied making something interesting out of them. He too went with a Top Force rear transmission which was my initial plan along with designing a double deck chassis. But also like you, I'm not sure about the DF-01 being the best donor. I've got some spares for it already, so from that perspective it would make financial sense, plus it is reasonably available, but the lack of a slipper is causing some nagging in the back of my head. I know there are some TRF201 conversions out there, but realistically, the spares for that are just about in the unicorn stock levels, so I don't see a win there. A little while back I did a CW-01 with an M-06 gearbox, and I know some have put those in an Astute chassis too, but again, parts for that are not actually that easy to get hold of, so what to do? 

The TD2/4 is a great option for gear internals, but obviously there is no gearbox parts tree, which is where the appeal falls down for me personally, as I love the idea of mixing and matching existing parts rather than solely having to use 3D printed parts. That said, I know based on your previous gearbox printed parts you'll come up with something spectacular ;)

To answer your question rather than me just ramble on and on about my thoughts, I'd go for the modern chassis with old style bodies :)

Keep the ideas coming though, love reading about this sort of thing - well done!

 

Sounds interesting @jonboy1 It was also that Astute mid, plus my DF01 Ultra Hornet swap that got us thinking. It is a nice cheap, readily available trans, and the ball diff in my Ultra Hornet certainly seems OK with hot brushed (rather than brushless) power. Due to my pile of FF01 spares I am also just a B parts tree away from a running DF01 rear end, but I am being tempted by the TD2 internals. I suspect a base plate for df01 rear end will be an option if we do this though. 

Although I sympathise with wanting to use parts trees available, it's actually the internals that are the really hard bit. With TD2/4 we now have whaf seems to be steady production of a pretty competition spec drivetrain, so joining the dots with a 3d printed case that suits the packaging needs of an older body seems like a win to me. I am hoping they don't end up too pricey. I am looking into options other than Shapeways on that side of things. 

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5 hours ago, jonboy1 said:

... 

The TD2/4 is a great option for gear internals, but obviously there is no gearbox parts tree, which is where the appeal falls down for me personally, as I love the idea of mixing and matching existing parts rather than solely having to use 3D printed parts. That said, I know based on your previous gearbox printed parts you'll come up with something spectacular ;)

...

Im 99%ish sure that XV01 gear cases will hold the internals for the TD4 if it helps anyone 

Though you would probably want the motor further forward than the XV01 front gearbox case would give you if used as a rear  gear case in a 2wd buggy

 

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14 hours ago, BuggyGuy said:

Im 99%ish sure that XV01 gear cases will hold the internals for the TD4 if it helps anyone 

Though you would probably want the motor further forward than the XV01 front gearbox case would give you if used as a rear  gear case in a 2wd buggy

 

I'm 98% sure you're correct too @BuggyGuy as I'd looked at this possibility as well. The reason I didn't go any further was that as I didn't have a donor XV I'd need to buy a lot of parts: A parts, B parts J & JJ parts, K & KK parts from what I recall off the top of my head, metal motor plate plus all the internals, and it rapidly ended up heading towards £80+, and this would be on top of any 3D printed parts need to make it fit and numerous other bits and bobs, and it just got too much for what was meant to be a cheap project. 

However, if you did have a broken or tired XV laying around I think it could be a cracking idea..... 

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You can use this gearbox on a super astute I think. Then just design new 3d parts in pa12 arms and knuckles or design parts that could use  td2 arms and knuckles and hubs, maybe just an idea I had.

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I've got some TD2/4 arms and measured them up and laid them into the model. At my best estimate the front track seems quite a bit narrower than 250mm. Is this correct? Could someone with a TD2 or TD4 measure how fair apart the inner front arm hinge pins are for me please? Part M2 on the TD2. An idea of how wide the rear track is on a TD2 or TD4 would be super useful too. 

Thank you!

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Been chipping away at the details of this. It is using TD2/4 front and rear arms, front knuckles and upright. Currently looking at doing my own rear upright that is a little narrower and takes a stock tamiya 70mm universal/driveshaft. 1234627023_gwct2wdchassisassemblyv3(td2).jpg.b2143358d19bbe48dbe4a5398e1a0ccb.thumb.jpg.b765e302bea8ca8ed17209c1a3b9006e.jpg

Rear trans is pretty set using 3d printed gear cases, and touring car XB width adjustable suspension blocks. The motor plate is reversible so you can choose between 3 gear or 4 gear transmissions. The middle bulkhead is still based on the DF01 so with a slightly different bottom plate you could still run a Top Force / Manta Ray rear end as was the original plan. 

Currently waiting for some measurements and spare parts from generous fellow forum members to see if I can use the stock td2/4 rear shock tower and make sure the front and rear camber link mounts are in about the same places so I don't mess up the geometry. 

Also, because the 3 gear trans and td2/4 use XV01 internals, and the front suspension bulkhead us bolt, I have half an idea to see if I could do a 4wd version using a belt a la XV01. Possibly a massive distraction though! 

Finally, I have the standard Hornet/Grasshopper 2/thundershot 3 point body mounts laid into the model. I think with an optional front mount and rear posts mounted off the shock tower I can include that option so it wouldn't just be an Astute body that fit, but anything 3 point. A Hornet would be quite cool! 

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