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bRIBEGuy

TC-01: Formula E Gen 2 Build...

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On 2/24/2023 at 7:28 PM, mtbkym01 said:

This is really looking like Tamiya at its over engineering best….

Yup, pretty much!

While much of my writing is tongue-in-cheek poking fun at the TC-01, it has actually been a thoroughly enjoyable build.  The car is very cool and unique, and I feel like it really represents what Tamiya excels at... goofing off in waters that no one else will even venture into.  :lol:

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The back end gets pretty much the same treatment as the front... swaybars and a universal prop shaft...

V6VojA1.jpg


Figured on the back I would try assembling it the proper way, and complete the swaybar before putting the top cap in place.  Would anyone be surprised to know  that doing it properly is much easier?  :P

Since the front end got the medium swaybar, the softest of the three options was used for the rear...

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Rear diff is in the rear... might be a small thing to note, but it would certainly be a bad place to mix things up... ha ha ha!  As with the front, the rear upper cover cinches down tightly once tightened, eliminating the gap shown earlier in the build.  Happy times here for sure.

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It is interesting to note that the optional (and essentially unmentioned in the instructions) swaybar kit, just pops right on to the TC-01 suspension arms without any additional parts.  Why is that?  Well, way back at Steps 3 & 6 in the manual when you are building the lower suspension arms, they have you add a bunch of extra hardware that would essentially end up as otherwise unused (and extra weight) without the swaybar kit.  Wacky.  I wonder how many people build this kit per the instructions and then sit scratching their head about the extra ball ends sticking randomly out of their suspension setup?

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I'd quite like one of these, but with a regular TC body. Will they release a kit like that I wonder?

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2 hours ago, Elbowloh said:

I'd quite like one of these, but with a regular TC body. Will they release a kit like that I wonder?

I would hope so.

It's actually VERY surprising (IMO) that this kit has been around as long as it had without ever seeing another body option (in kit form).  I thought for sure we would have seen a variant with the Toyota TS-050 body by now, and likely other options...... but NOPE.  Also seems like the perfect kit for a TC-01 PRO variant, but again.... nothing.  Come on Tamiya!!!

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Time for more suspension work...

Front upper arms are pretty straight forward.  Front shock linkages look like one piece... but are actually two ball ends threaded all the way onto a long grub screw to rest on each other.  Because why have one piece when you could have 3...

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Shock linkage goes on first... and is actually a lot harder then it looks.  Sure, the one end pops onto the ball end on the lower suspension arm without much fanfare, but everything that makes the upper shock mount so smooth and free spinning also makes it really hard to hold in place to snap a ball end on to.  Ya...

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After the linkages it's onto the upper arms which are comparatively easy.  Everything is VERY smooth moving without any slop.  Color me impressed...

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C-Hubs are next...

Q8LBfRp.jpg


Now THIS is a part I really wish was available as an aluminum upgrade. 

Yes I know other companies make them. 

Yes, I'm being THAT guy who is trying to keep the build all Tamiya. 

Yes, I realize the hypocrisy of my HobbyWing and Savox electronics in relation to my last sentence... Hey, it's my build, I'll take it in whatever silly direction I choose!

Not silly: Universal shafts.

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Maybe silly: 14 pieces of hardware to mount the C-Hubs (6 more parts) & universals (10 more parts)

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Pro Tip: Do the bottom screw first...

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On the other side I started with the top screw, and found it a bit fumbley to get the bottom in.  By starting with the bottom, I found it was easier to swing the top arm out of the way to get the universal ito the diff cup and get everything lined up.  But, that's just my experience, and mileage may vary...

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Front end almost buttoned up and looking pretty darn rad...

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And then the Tamiya kicks in...

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So those little plastic dodads are covers for the upper C-Hub screws.  They do a very good job of making the assembly look finished (don't worry, there will be a picture...), and probably do a reasonable job of keeping road gunk out of the upper pivot balls (and the other handful of moving parts).  BUT... I have a bone to pick here... and who better to paraphrase it than myself from an earlier post?
 

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On 2/14/2023 at 2:38 PM, bRIBEGuy said:

These doors get secured with the most ridiculous of tiny 2mm self tapping screws, which rock a (supposed) 1.5mm hex head.  Now that being said, while the kit supplied crappy L-Shape hex key works, neither of my "nice" 1.5mm drivers actually fit.  :angry:  

...Come on Tamiya...
 

Yup... I said it best the last time these little devils showed up in the build.  Somehow the previous words fit perfectly here as well...

Wera saves the day with a ballhead 1.5mm driver here this time around, but the fact remains that this is a ridiculously tiny screw top hold on a cover that allows access to a screw that might very easily loosen off/back out over time.  Almost certainly I will not have a 1.5mm Wera allen-key with me when I am out driving this...

qBlKy9z.jpg


All ranting aside, it finishes up nicely and looks pretty slick.

9FLKkmt.jpg

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Take one down... flip it around... more and more suspension parts on the ground...

Yup, continuing the general theme of the TC-01, the rear end it pretty much the same as the front.

MBqdfxg.jpg


Except that here, the shock linkages are one piece plastic instead of the 3 parts used to create the same shaped piece in the front.  Ya.

Once again the linkages get wrestled on first, with the upper arms getting popped into place afterwards.

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Once again you must pause to enjoy how unique and cool this car really is...

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Universals in the back?  Sure, why not...

If I was smart I would keep these and use them on the front of a XV01, and just run dogbones here... but hey, we've come this far, why start being practical now?  

The rear end also uses the same C-Hubs as the front... because symmetry. 

Or because TC-01. 

Or just because.

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Once a couple of handfuls of hardware are used to mount them up, the rear end looks pretty much like... you guessed it!  The front end.

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I'm sure everyone will be excited to see a picture of TRF Big Bore Dampers.  My understanding is that your build thread will be 1000x more popular if you have these, and that your car will drive 100x better.  I'm just glad I bought them so long ago that I've forgotten the price...

What I haven't forgotten about is those terrible tiny little 2mmx8mm screws that one again show up on the back end of the car to hold the little caps in place.  Look.  You can see them right there next to the trending TRF Big Bores...

i0IyWsx.jpg

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All jokes aside, I'm excited to build up a set of TRF BB dampers (TRFBBD's?) for this car, though I am starting with a number of hurdles to get over first.  

  1. The caps require a 1mm vent hole to be drilled: Not a big deal... except I don't currently have either a 1mm or #61 bit to make this step happen.  Also, it's not really a common size to find at hardware store, and the nearest LHS is sold out.  :(
  2. The caps have an optional urethane bushing:  Not that I have an issue with this part... but Tamiya's directions of "Use according to surface conditions", is sort of "clear as mud".  So bushing or no?
  3. Shock oil.  The kit comes with 900 oil and one hole pistons.  These aren't the kit shocks, and they use 3 hole pistons.  So what oil?

The first point will be solved with time.  I'm not too fussed there (yet).

The second point I'm trying more to wrap my head around the mechanics off... As such, my guess is the bushing is there to offer some level of support to the rubber diaphragm/oil seal, which in turn might make the action more consistent?  My 1/5 MCD XR5-Max uses a physical spring in a (seemingly) similar capacity, noting that it creates an internal high pressure cell that "prevents oil from foaming on long runs".

The third point I fear will be solved with trial and error... and I'm not gonna lie... I get no joy out of shock tuning (let alone trial and error shock tuning).  If I lived in isolation, I likely would have just dumped in the kit 900 oil and called it done.  In all honestly, I very likely may just do that in the end anyway.  BUT... my initial thought was that it may be too soft, as the TRFBBD's use a 3-hole piston instead of the kit's 1-hole option.  The problem there, is that the math isn't as simple as counting holes... you must also take into account hole size (100% unchecked by me for either piston) and piston surface area (100% not in the mood for that math).  I'm not going to do the real math, and instead I am just going to assume that the following equation is correct:

More TRFBBD holes + Larger TRFBBD piston area + Unknown TRFBBD/CVA hole size ratio = Roughly the same suspension action.

With scientific backing like that, how could I be wrong?

As such... we're back to maybe starting with the kit's 900 oil.  Except............ every time I can find a setup sheet for the TC-01 (like all 4 times...), it seems folks are running WAAAAAAY softer oil.  Like 300-450 in their TRFBBD's*  That seems crazy to me (as that seems more like buggy weight oil), but the information was found on the internet, and is that ever misleading or wrong?

Hmmmmmm.........

Tamiya's TRFBBD instructions are no help in any regard...  I'm getting a solid 100% Monday vibe today...

bpNzkfB.jpg

 

 

 



*At this point if you are starting to think that I am now just going out of my way to type out TRFBBD as much as possible... you would be correct.

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2 hours ago, bRIBEGuy said:

If I was smart I would keep these and use them on the front of a XV01, and just run dogbones here... but hey, we've come this far, why start being practical now?

Or you could go even further and replace the swing shafts with blue aluminum ones (53502) :)

3 hours ago, bRIBEGuy said:

Almost certainly I will not have a 1.5mm Wera allen-key with me

Why do you need a special key for this? Can you not turn these screws with a regular 1.5mm hex wrench?

This whole thread is a nice read indeed and I find myself looking forward to the next post :D

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1 hour ago, bRIBEGuy said:

All jokes aside, I'm excited to build up a set of TRF BB dampers (TRFBBD's?) for this car, though I am starting with a number of hurdles to get over first.  

  1. The caps require a 1mm vent hole to be drilled: Not a big deal... except I don't currently have either a 1mm or #61 bit to make this step happen.  Also, it's not really a common size to find at hardware store, and the nearest LHS is sold out.  :(
  2. The caps have an optional urethane bushing:  Not that I have an issue with this part... but Tamiya's directions of "Use according to surface conditions", is sort of "clear as mud".  So bushing or no?
  3. Shock oil.  The kit comes with 900 oil and one hole pistons.  These aren't the kit shocks, and they use 3 hole pistons.  So what oil?

The first point will be solved with time.  I'm not too fussed there (yet).

The second point I'm trying more to wrap my head around the mechanics off... As such, my guess is the bushing is there to offer some level of support to the rubber diaphragm/oil seal, which in turn might make the action more consistent?  My 1/5 MCD XR5-Max uses a physical spring in a (seemingly) similar capacity, noting that it creates an internal high pressure cell that "prevents oil from foaming on long runs".

The third point I fear will be solved with trial and error... and I'm not gonna lie... I get no joy out of shock tuning (let alone trial and error shock tuning).  If I lived in isolation, I likely would have just dumped in the kit 900 oil and called it done.  In all honestly, I very likely may just do that in the end anyway.  BUT... my initial thought was that it may be too soft, as the TRFBBD's use a 3-hole piston instead of the kit's 1-hole option.  The problem there, is that the math isn't as simple as counting holes... you must also take into account hole size (100% unchecked by me for either piston) and piston surface area (100% not in the mood for that math).  I'm not going to do the real math, and instead I am just going to assume that the following equation is correct:

More TRFBBD holes + Larger TRFBBD piston area + Unknown TRFBBD/CVA hole size ratio = Roughly the same suspension action.

With scientific backing like that, how could I be wrong?

As such... we're back to maybe starting with the kit's 900 oil.  Except............ every time I can find a setup sheet for the TC-01 (like all 4 times...), it seems folks are running WAAAAAAY softer oil.  Like 300-450 in their TRFBBD's*  That seems crazy to me (as that seems more like buggy weight oil), but the information was found on the internet, and is that ever misleading or wrong?

Hmmmmmm.........

Tamiya's TRFBBD instructions are no help in any regard...  I'm getting a solid 100% Monday vibe today...

bpNzkfB.jpg

 

 

 



*At this point if you are starting to think that I am now just going out of my way to type out TRFBBD as much as possible... you would be correct.

I am sure you will be fine with the usual 3 hole piston and 400 oil. 900 might be a little stiff. The urethane bushings are supposed to increase rebound... but then the venting hole would work the opposite way :) I would concur with you that using the bushing in conjunction with a vent hole would make it easier to obtain 4 shocks with the same rebound consistently. With traditional TRF shocks or CVA's, if a drop of oil would escape and get trapped on top of the seal, that shock would get much more rebound than the other three... So if it were me I would - as a starting point -  build the shocks without the venting hole and without the bushings. These can be easily changed at the next shock rebuild... basically in about an hour of run time!

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I agree with @Pylon80 900 oil will be too hard. The CVA damper have way bigger holes in the pistons (even when comparing one hole to three) and more gap around the edges than the big bores. Start with 400 and see how you go. All my standard bore trf dampers have 3 holes and I race outdoors on bumpy ashpalt using 400/500 oil. Even my tb03r with older flourine coated dampers and 2 hole pistons (with bigger holes than the modern dampers) only runs 500. In the buggy big bores the holes in the pistons are a little bigger than than the standard size shocks (1.6/1.7 vs 1.3/1.4mm) with the idea being you run similar weight oil regardless of shock choice. I expect same here. 

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6 hours ago, ThunderDragonCy said:

and more gap around the edges

For that reason the CVA set I still have on one of my cars has been upgraded to TRF machined piston that provide much more consistent fit even inside the plastic cylinders 👍

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The build is looking amazing ! Can't help wishing that Tamiya would stop putting 4wd chassis in things that are 2wd though

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15 hours ago, Pylon80 said:

Why do you need a special key for this? Can you not turn these screws with a regular 1.5mm hex wrench?

No, and that's exactly my issue.  The 1.5mm hex in the screw seems to be a bit undersized.  I have 2 different 1.5mm drivers, and neither of them fit into the screw head.  The junkly L-Key that comes with the kit does fit, and the ball end (which is usually slightly undersized) of a Wera driver works, but nothing else.

 

15 hours ago, Pylon80 said:

I am sure you will be fine with the usual 3 hole piston and 400 oil. 900 might be a little stiff. The urethane bushings are supposed to increase rebound... but then the venting hole would work the opposite way :) I would concur with you that using the bushing in conjunction with a vent hole would make it easier to obtain 4 shocks with the same rebound consistently. With traditional TRF shocks or CVA's, if a drop of oil would escape and get trapped on top of the seal, that shock would get much more rebound than the other three... So if it were me I would - as a starting point -  build the shocks without the venting hole and without the bushings. These can be easily changed at the next shock rebuild... basically in about an hour of run time!

Great info here, thanks!
 

6 hours ago, ThunderDragonCy said:

I agree with @Pylon80 900 oil will be too hard. The CVA damper have way bigger holes in the pistons (even when comparing one hole to three) and more gap around the edges than the big bores. Start with 400 and see how you go. All my standard bore trf dampers have 3 holes and I race outdoors on bumpy ashpalt using 400/500 oil. 

Thanks for the feedback!

Sooooooo...... no 900.  Got it.

Okay, so the general consensus is that 900 is likely too firm, and that TRFBBD's have way more tuning possibilities than I have brain cells devoted to shock tuning.  So........ guess I could could spend a few weeks overthinking it to death, or I could just jump in and pick a build direction and fix it later if I goof it up (anyone wanna bet I'll be back to kit-spec CVA's within the span of the year?  Ha ha ha ha ha.....).  Ironically, I had almost come to the conclusion to just use the kit 900 oil (I used to run 60-80wt [800-1000cst] in my old Associated TC3 and it was great... albeit old and not similar to the TC-01 in any way...), drill out the caps as per the instructions and use the urethane bushings (specifically so I don't loose them for later...lol).

Hmmmm.........

Realistically I'll still pick up a 1mm (ish) drill bit before I start the shock build, so it's likely this could be on pause for a few days (since after a few days of "nice" weather, we're back to heavy snow and I don't really feel like taking the dog-sled across town to the LHS).  Time to keep overthinking things...

On the plus side... at least my work area is cluttered with pretty blue Tamiya bits while I wait!

Br9z5X8.jpg

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On 2/28/2023 at 8:20 AM, Nick G said:

The build is looking amazing ! Can't help wishing that Tamiya would stop putting 4wd chassis in things that are 2wd though

One can dream, right?  :lol:

I 90% agree with you here... I think the 4WD 2WD car is lame (F201, TA03/TA02 Lancia 037, & MX01 VW Beetle, I'm looking at you...).  That being said, a 2WD version of most of these would drive like [Enter synonym for digest food on it's way out], and really these are just toys meant to drive.  2WD on-road requires really slow speed, really great setup, massive piles of skill, and/or electronic assistance... and where is the fun in that for most people? 

Most of us just want a car that looks cool and drives well.  Hotwheels released a Formula E car a while back, and it is 0WD and quite frankly handles terribly.  But I bought that too since it looks so cool, and I guess I'm a sucker for pretty things.

New goal... Tamiya Formula E must drive better than Hotwheels Fomula E....

QbzV2nn.jpg

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With the shocks being on pause, I figured I'd make some lazy progress and pull out the kit wheels and tires.

h3HZVQo.jpg


As you can imagine (unless you have a really poor imagination... or have only ever built The Frog...), it was pretty quick and easy to get them mounted up.  Modern touring car wheels and tires are not nearly the finger bleeding torture devices that Tamiya's old buggy wheels/tires are...

uC25vnO.jpg
 

I have no idea how good these tires are, but since this will primarily be seeing parking lots, streets, and other "non-track" surfaces, I'm sure they will be a fine starting point. 

I really like the look of the kit wheels... though it does kinda kill me a bit that they opted for a 6-spoke pattern when the real car uses a 7-spoke wheel.  :angry:  On the "plus side", HotWheels got it wrong too (opting for only 5 spokes) so at least nothing in the current Formula E pile has any consistency... :rolleyes:

6aYSpWR.jpg

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The wheels are always the first thing I put together whatever I'm building. Don't know why just always is. Those wheels look great  , I actually think the 6 spoke design looks better .

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The latest Gen3 Formula E cars are 4wd i think. So Tamiya maybe was a bit ahead?

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