FF01-LA EVO

[ThunderDragonCy 7876]

2 hours ago, Honza said:

I think this is great idea. One of the issues with FF-01 (and XV-01) layout is, that the large spur gets in the way of front shocks. The stock shock tower is a design compromise to get around that, so I would consider redesigning it as well, as this more compact layout provides more freedom around that area. Also, it's one of FF-01 specific parts, that's getting harder to get.

And as I mentioned in the other topic, M-07/8 gearing might be worth investigating as well.

Edit: one more thing - there's no speed tuned gear set for M-05, the optional set is just tougher material to handle hotter motors. But it's considerably faster compared to stock FF-01 gearing, (a 24T pinion gives 4.83 ratio compared to 6.7/7.21 on FF-01) however, you can get down to a 14T (8.29) pinion, if you need something slower. It's just something that needs to be taken into consideration in the design.

I was wondering about the front shock tower. I'll take it under advisement. Maybe see if a ta02 tower can be made to work. It's a bit tighter than you might expect because of how wide the stacked gears of the drivetrain are.

Regarding speed tuned gearsets, there are a bunch of aftermarket ones with 33 and 35 spurs instead of stock 37. I am designed the motor adjustment arond 16-24t pinion with stock spur which should give enough choice. 

[ThunderDragonCy 7876]

1 hour ago, wtcc5 said:

Looks like very much additional work. Just making a bit more space to use TA02 spur gears with bevel gear was not possible?

It is tricky, but it's also fun 😄 I looked at the TA02 spur gear, but stock is 74t, even bigger than the 71t stock FF01 which makes gearing worse. Also, the 74t spur would hit the front axle cup so without moving the motor even further out forward it wouldn't work. And i don't feel i could rely on supply of the smaller speed tuned ta02 spur gears. 

[wtcc5 4885]

Ok. I have a lifetime stock of smaller spurs left from my TopForce adventure.

[ThunderDragonCy 7876]

8 minutes ago, wtcc5 said:

Ok. I have a lifetime stock of smaller spurs left from my TopForce adventure.

Hold onto them! I decided to race a TA02 rere a couple of years ago and the speed tuned gearset was delayed over 6 months and hadn't been around for years. I had to get a special "pass" from the club to race a 14 turn motor to even out thr speed compared to TT01's!

[Honza 936]

21 hours ago, ThunderDragonCy said:

Regarding speed tuned gearsets, there are a bunch of aftermarket ones with 33 and 35 spurs instead of stock 37. I am designed the motor adjustment arond 16-24t pinion with stock spur which should give enough choice. 

You're right, I forgot about 3rd parties 😁 I only found the 3racing set, read some non-positive reviews, and never thought of it again.   But the 16-24 range sounds good. You can also move the spur a little to gain space for larger pinions within the same motor position range, as alternative of speed tuned spur. Or TL-01 spur for something extreme 😃

[ThunderDragonCy 7876]

Did some more this afternoon. Been fun figuring it all out. Shout out to @Honza for lots of accurate measurements. 

 

I got all the FF01 chassis interfaces modelled, although some thought was needed to add extra lugs and holes for through screws to hold the two halves together. The ff01 trans is split on the horizontal plane so doesn't need them.

The m05 drivetrain is really quite ingenious. I have been able to place the motor 4.5mm closer to the front axle, 4mm more centred laterally and 2mm lower than the FF01. Its intruging to consider what that might do to the handling. I love FF01s though, so might just as easily ruin it than improve!

I am going to let this sit for a couple of days. Its a solid concept, but i am sure there are details to sort. For example, currently there is no overlapping lip between the halves, and because of the new gears the FF01/TA02 loop parts that holds the arms on no longer fits, but i don't know if there are any suspension shafts that will work.

Currently still uses the FF01 shock tower as moving it forward would put the anchoring screws into the diff. Might be able to do something new with a bit of thought, but that's enough for now. Given m05 gearsets are cheap and plentiful i probably will give it a go in reality at some point. Once the FF01-LA EVO is built with its carbon bits i will be able to rebuild my FF01-Ra but that still uses as original ff01 gearcase. Would be good to get it using something less fragile, so putting the "stock" 3d printed gearcase on that and trying the M05 bits on the EVO. 

 

[Honza 936]

9 hours ago, ThunderDragonCy said:

the FF01/TA02 loop parts that holds the arms on no longer fits, but i don't know if there are any suspension shafts that will work.

I was today years old when I found out that even the most hopped up versions of TA02 still use the U-shape hinge pin.

Great job! Is there a way to make the suspension mount a separate part? Changing a whole gearbox half in case of a crash and damage to the mount is a bit of pain. (Ask me how I know 😁) It might be a way to fit the hinge pin as a reinforcement. It'd also allow you to make more variants of kick-up angle.

One part I didn't like is that the bottom part of the gearbox is horizontal, going forward from the arms. Going in the plane of the suspension arms and then curve up around the motor before ending in the bumper would provide more ride height, which would be beneficial if you intend to do a rally variant. The disadvantage would be slightly higher CG due to motor moving up a bit, but considering Tamiya did a quite successful road going FWD with an XV-01 gearbox, I don't think it will be an issue. 🙂

I wonder if the gearbox fits under an M-chassis shell.. A mini FF-01 would be quite cool

[ThunderDragonCy 7876]

@Honza I have looked at separate suspension mounts before but there isn't space if you keep the arms as they are. You have to put mount blocks outside the arms and there isn't room for that on the inboard side without hitting the tub and fouling the steering arms. 

At the moment i am going keep it flat floor. The FF01 is actually flat too despite not looking like it because of the moulding shape. I think so kind of raised run out and bumper beyond the motor would be a good idea though. 

Whilst it's more compact than an FF01 there is still quite a lot hanging out the front there. I think if it was an m chassis body it would need plenty of front overhang. 

Thanks for the input.

[BuggyDad 4450]

If your space limitation forces you into mounting the suspension to the gearbox halves and that creates a weakness, then could an additional brace out of carbon fibre sheet be designed in, perhaps in a slot in the print in between arms and gearbox? Plenty strong, minimal size. 

I haven't designed for printing this way, but I have hacked out a couple of tamiya gearbox housings to do it with success. Designing it in could be a neater version of the same. I was tempted to design just this (not gearbox, but same solution) into my homebrew buggy since it's an area where I worry about the 3d print material, and might still if it proves a weak point. Could use a small CF (or steel/alu) reinforcing plate in many areas where 3d prints might fail but space is tight. 

[wtcc5 4885]

@ThunderDragonCy:That is a great design!

 

Edit: You could think of screwholes integrated in the housing for a motor cooling fan.

[ThunderDragonCy 7876]

@BuggyDad That is a great idea. Plate will get pretty thin under the diff, but definitely worth a look.

Also thought this morning that if i can find a new source for metal cutting cheaply (the laser cut steel motor mount for Ultra G EVO cost me £60!) then i could extend the motor plate at the front above the casing and provide mounts for the DF03 heat sink bars

[Honza 936]

55 minutes ago, ThunderDragonCy said:

I have looked at separate suspension mounts before but there isn't space if you keep the arms as they are. You have to put mount blocks outside the arms and there isn't room for that on the inboard side without hitting the tub and fouling the steering arms. 

A similar solution to the stock FF-01/TA02 mount/diff cover wouldn't work? 

Or something similar to what I did on my MF-01 conversion, with mounting screws in the middle of hinge pin blocks. Although that requires moving the diff up a little to make space for the mount and screws under the bearing.

[BuggyDad 4450]

22 minutes ago, ThunderDragonCy said:

@BuggyDad That is a great idea. Plate will get pretty thin under the diff, but definitely worth a look.

Also thought this morning that if i can find a new source for metal cutting cheaply (the laser cut steel motor mount for Ultra G EVO cost me £60!) then i could extend the motor plate at the front above the casing and provide mounts for the DF03 heat sink bars

With your kick up I reckon at the front of the arms if you dip the bottom of the brace down to the full extent you could cut a lot out above. At the end of the day, it's really just a bit of extra bracing on top of what you already have, so thin is probably fine. One disadvantage of mine is they cut through the gearbox seal, because stock gearboxes - you can design that out to make just an external brace, but only with sufficient clearance to the diff. 

Does the rear of the arms need a brace? Maybe get away with just the front but if it does it might be simpler there to go outside the arms. 

[ThunderDragonCy 7876]

5 minutes ago, Honza said:

A similar solution to the stock FF-01/TA02 mount/diff cover wouldn't work? 

Or something similar to what I did on my MF-01 conversion, with mounting screws in the middle of hinge pin blocks. Although that requires moving the diff up a little to make space for the mount and screws under the bearing.

A diff cover like the FF01 would need to be a third part, but might be worth looking at. Thanks.

[ThunderDragonCy 7876]

Tried a few of your ideas, but the one that came most easily and obviously in the end was a front arm block similar to an FF01. It's much shortened to just mount the front arms, and modified with different upstands to account for the 1510 bearings i want to use.

I think it will work well. It's a relatively small part, but helps tie the halves together.

The bumper mount is tricky. The case is quite narrow so the mounting boss is very central with little support. I hope it will be ok made of flexible TPU with a foam mounted to it.

Last little thing is an extended top section of the motor plate and a couple of df03 heatsink bars. I don't know exactly how big they are, but a guess based on pics will easily get two in. Doesn't leave anywhere for a fan though.

Quite enjoying the process with this. Any more thoughts? I have really appreciated everyone's input on this. If i get the motor plate in plastic it wouldn't be silly money to get a test print and see if it works.

[Honza 936]

On 3/12/2024 at 10:05 PM, ThunderDragonCy said:

Any more thoughts?

Only thing I can think of is cooling improvement by using the motor mount and a strut base to mount the transmission assembly to the bumper plate - something similar to XV-01/M-06. But that would mean a major redesign.

[ThunderDragonCy 7876]

I got all the carbon bits for the EVO build with my Ultra G Evo bits because they came from a long way away. Some man maths about saving postage. Anyway, decided to have a go at this tonight. Can you spot my mistake? 🤦

There are two. Second is more subtle. Despite the post being in the model, i never put a hole in the deck for it. So, outrigger fail. Very unsure what to do, as drilling accurately with the kit i have is nigh on impossible. 

Hopefully the rest of the assembly will be less problematic! 

[ThunderDragonCy 7876]

Figured it out. Remembered the chassis mounting holes go all the way through the gearcase, so i tapped them at the top, attached the deck, and used the gearcase as a drill guide.

Found a spare 3d printed spacer in my box of things that spaced out the height error in the gearbox. I also drilled out the upstand post to 3mm and through bolted the whole thing to make sure it all holds together. 

Also found the 3d printed steering posts i knew i had done at some point. Not sure how they will fair being plastic, but i put a long screw in them. Realised i am short of 850 bearings for the steering so i need to get some more. Still, it's getting there and i think i have everything i need to build the rear end.

[ruebiracer 1045]

Very cool already, this must be good in the end!

[ThunderDragonCy 7876]

Little bit of pre work assembly. Rear end on it's way...

 

[ThunderDragonCy 7876]

Front shock tower install

Some wierdness on the shocks. I have these 3d printed spacers for the front shock bolts, but although i think i have used them before, they came up short.

Here it is with an extra spacer and 35mm bolt to make it work. 

This is the other side with my original idea

C hub catches the shock at about 50% compression.

Beginnings of battery retention, and rear shock mounted.

Ordered some drone standoffs and some more screws of different lengths to get things a little further.

[ThunderDragonCy 7876]

Few little bits and correct length screws arrived, so made a bit more progress.

I through screwed my plastic steering posts and mounted up the arms. 

I got the M3x40 screws to maje my battery retainers, and that seems to work too. 

Body posts went on as well. Can't quite finish it as i was going to rob the servo and Rx from my TB03R, but i decided that for the sake of 35 quid i should get the bits for this and keep all my cars as runners.

[ThunderDragonCy 7876]

Need some help. Anyone running FF01, TA02, manta ray or top force got a spare gear shaft cup? Like this one

Just been checking my gears and lost the other one

Anyone UK based got one?

 

[ThunderDragonCy 7876]

Final stretch after a few little pacjages arrived to day. Firstly, some nice details. I reused most of the parts and fittings from the Long Arm test car, which were robbeb from my bitsa ff01 rally car. Now i am rebuilding that to stash at work for lunchtime car park fun, i was short of parts, so it was only right that this got some nice new bits.

TA03 knuckles (i miss the blue), lightweight kingpins, aluminium ball studs, trf open adjusters and turnbuckle steering arm.

Steering install. In my cad model I thought the link would be behind the servo arm, but the reality is that it fits nicer on the outside 

And with the electronics install

With wheels on

It's riding too low at the front. Either i got my CAD wrong, or the requirement for longer shock spacers on the 4 deg kickup angle raised the top mount too much, probably a combination of the two. Just like my old racecar, i just need to get some TRF shock fittings with the +2mm lower eyelets and all should be well. 

It's lovely to see this finished. Just wish it would stop raining so i could get some track running.

This isn't the end on this. I ordered the M05 internals transmission today. To be continued.....