Avante series - which to own, as a runner / racer?

[Mad Ax]

TL;DR: if you were to own any car from the Avante series (Avante, Egress, Vanquish, Avante 2001) for the purpose of running and vintage racing, which would it be?

Long Version: an old friend of mine is selling his complete and extensive collection.  As he is unwell, he has given me the task of selling it all for him - look out on here for details as I dig through the haul, it's going to take a few months as there's a lot to do and nothing is catalogued or organised.  However, I know it contains several models from the Avante series in various states of repair.  There is definitely a complete and slightly modified Vanquish (sitting next to me on the floor right now) and also an Egress with possibly a few hop-ups (I think it's an original, not a re-re, but I'll do my homework before I work out its value - look out for some "please ID this part" threads coming soon!), and I'm fairly sure there's a complete Avante or two waiting in the lockup, maybe even a 2001.

Now, I don't own, and have never owned, any of the Avante series.  Even after the re-releases, they've always been unicorns - too rare and expensive for me to dream about, and potentially they are in this instance too - my friend needs to make good money on these and I'm not going to give him a low-ball valuation just so I can get something for myself.  However, if I can raise the funds, I'd like to buy one before the rest go up for sale.  The question is, which should it be?  Should I raise the funds for one of the carbon cars and have that real special piece of Tamiya history in my collection?  Or would I be better with the plastic Vanquish for a significantly lower price?

My only vintage buggy meet is the Revival, where cars are grouped by year (Avante and Vanquish 88-89 alongside HS2, Super Saber, Thundershot, Thunder Dragon, Terra Scorcher, CAT XL, CAT XLS, YZ10, Super Dog Fighter, Optima Mid, Turbo Optima Mid, Egress and Avante 2001 in 89-93 with the Top Force Evo, Lazer ZX/Sport/R, Procat, Bosscats, CAT2000 and Yokomo Works cars.

Any other thoughts?  I don't really know a lot about these cars, only that pre-re-re they were considered expensive, fragile and rare, and most people only ran them gently - with the exception of former member Lemming, who I have video evidence of driving his one backwards over a ramp in a car park in South Wales.

[Twinfan]

I personally wouldn't plan on running or racing any of the Avante series as I would assume parts are a nightmare to get hold of.

However, if I was in your shoes I would see if I could buy an Egress as that should be the best runner of the group.  If you're shelfing it, the original Avante would probably be the one to get.

[Willy iine]

I would run the Egress causally (Avante even more causally), but most definitely take the TFEvo for an event out of the Avante family.  Avante does best on the shelf imo..

[ThunderDragonCy]

Sorry to hear about your friend. I have no idea about which to choose as a runner, but I would suggest one of the carbon cars and not the Vanquish. There is a lot of aftermarket support for the chassis plates and shock towers etc for those. Until they Rere'd it, the Vanquish parts were unicorn tears, and will likely be so again soon. 

[Snappy1]

I might just upset a few people but…….I have an Egress runner, a VQS runner and an original Avante 2001 runner.

Both the Avante 2001 and VQS have been upgraded with vintage ball diffs and high caps , skinny front rims to reduce the under steer, and they both perform just as well as the Egress.

‘I run all three with the centre ball diff.

I actually prefer the VQS to drive, it just feels better balanced. 
 

When it comes to racing, yes a TF Evo will destroy an Avante class car on Astro or a modern smooth track but on an old, bumpy and rutted track the extra weight of the Avante class comes into its own and actually provides traction.

due to the Egress , Avante and VQS re release all parts are pricey but not unobtainable and maybe cause I am an Aussie and always go for the underdog I own  two VQS and Avante  2001, 

I don’t think that any car from that series isn’t worth owning, I just wouldn’t run an Avante, I don’t like the shorter wheelbase, everything else in the line up Is easy to drive due to the longer wheelbase.

[Saito2]

The Egress is the most well-sorted.

I'm planning on building an Avante runner. It will be a blend of Avante and Egress parts to rectify some of the Avante's durabiltiy issues.

The drivetrains are all pretty stout with a mix of F/R ball diffs or planetary diffs, center ball diffs, one-ways or locked center. As @ThunderDragonCy noted, parts may be a future issue for the Vanquish again although I found the car overall more durable than the Avante.

The original Avante's FRP top deck had a thin vulnerable spot at the trailing arm mount on one side. Those beautiful aluminum rod ends collect dirt and grit (Tamiya made rubber covers for them at one time) and can pop off in time. I don't recall them being overly cheap to replace. They thread onto metal rods that are molded into rock-hard shiny black Tamiya plastic at the other end. Front end travel is poor. Even though there is a crash-back feature to the front end, I've seem the diecast rocker arm suspension mounts shatter. Avantes are darty and nervous with their short wheelbases, no kick up, wide front tires and low caster. 

The Egress attempts to fix much of those issues. The suspension arms are nice, resilient PA plastics. The knuckles and hubs benefit from aluminum replacements from Yeah Racing, etc. The re-release gold uprights are a great upgrade for durabiltiy. The original diecast ones snapped like uncooked noodles to the point Tamiya revised their design BITD, but even those aren't as good as the milled re-re items. The Avante 2001 also has most of the fixes incorporated in a cheaper package but I never got on with it as well as a Vanquish for some reason.

The front gearbox housing side unfortunately incorporates the lower arm mounts and the mounts for the front shock tower. The tower mounts are vulnerable in rollovers and this is one of the few spots where the original Avante is better than the Egress in terms of durabiltiy. The Avante's front shocks mount low, and sheltered, directly to the gearbox mount moldings. The Egress's tall tower bolts to those mounts and the extra leverage can snap them off. If you-re lucky, the tower will snap first before the mounts. 

Unlike the Top Force, Tamiya did use fiber reinforced plastics for the gearboxes F/R at least.

[Willy iine]

@Saito2 How about he TF-EVO?   I thought it pretty much shared the same bits as Egress, in a different shape.. (?). 

Too lazy to take a look at mine.  

[Snappy1]

Egress and TF Evo are completely different vehicles, the Evo is the pinnacle of next gen 4wd  

[Saito2]

@Willy iine The TF-EVO is a DF01 chassis car and a totally different design. Its like a Manta Ray with every conceivable hop-up added. Since the DF01 platform was developed as a jack-of-all-trades platform, the basis for underpinning the first TA touring cars, beginner buggies, higher end buggies, small early short course trucks and even a Hummer, it doesn't use any reinforced plastics in its design. Considering all it could do, the design is rather ingenious though. Its a better performer on a wider variety of surfaces than the Avante series. It does lack the unique experimental "Tamiya" nature by being more mainstream overall but results in better performance.

The closest connection between the TF and the Egress would be the buggy run as a testbed in competition by Jamie Booth. I think he only ran his Egress stock once or twice before Tamiya began suppling experimental suspension components that were more in line with what the TF would be. Some say his modified Egress was kind of a prototype for the upcoming TF. At the '89 Worlds, Tamiya showed up with an Egress and Astute. By the '91 Worlds it was a modified Manta Ray (basically a Top Force) and a modded Astute (probably leading to the Super Astute, but my memory is hazy on that one).

[Willy iine]

Thanks guys.  There is a huge gap for Tamiya cars between Hotshot and 2020 for me so it's interesting to know the differences and changes.    I didn't mean to offend anyone who have a passion for Tamiya buggies.  I never really got into Tamiya buggies post HotShot until recently so I just did not know.  Doesn't help I have these cars and yet still don't know.  

Basically, CF dual deck, drives well, has a nice history people respect, welcome to the pretend RC shop!  Winners are welcome here.   

[Mad Ax]

Thanks for all the info's peeps.  I've never really been up to speed on the differences between the Avante series so it's been nice to learn some stuff.  My buddy seemed to be suggesting that he found the Vanquish nicest to drive, or at least the most compliant, but it's been years since he drove anything and it would only have been at a gentle bashing level.  He was a fast racer in his day, but generally with contemporary stuff, the vintage collection was just part of the collection.

Anyway, that's lots of food for thought.  I think I really need to have something in the collection to look at and admire and run gently on those rare bash days, there'll be so much nice stuff passing through my hands over the next few months it's going to be a wrench to get rid of any of it, but I can't afford it all.  I guess I need to have a close look at what's in the rest of the collection before I settle on the Egress that I have in my workshop right now 

[simalarion]

Of the two i think Egress Suit you best by miles i believe, it shout robust badass while Avant is slim and Elegant (not that you are not). Both are buggys i want but i t dont have room for more.

Im quite sure that is not anything technical i can tell you that you already do not know so i drop that part

I was looking to buy Egress earlier but it was before the rere and was out off stock, so i bought T-F w/High Caps. Today Space is a problem but i must have Egress or Avante when i find room for more kits as the are such big icons and at the same time high quality and still not terrible to drive compared to modern buggies, so you get both That Nostalgic kit and also a capable one i believe, and they look sooo goood!!
 

 

[Mad Ax]

3 hours ago, simalarion said:

Avant is slim and Elegant (not that you are not)

I am neither slim nor elegant.

Slimness is something I didn't want until I realised I'd lost it.  Elegance is something I've never had.  

[Saito2]

10 hours ago, Mad Ax said:

My buddy seemed to be suggesting that he found the Vanquish nicest to drive, or at least the most compliant,

I've read this other places as well. Its wholly possible the boxed plastic tub of the Vanquish allows some "give" making the car less razor sharp. The double deck carbon fiber Egress chassis is rigid and possibly might add to the "nervous" character that a more forgiving platform might blunt. Associated drivers went from aluminum gold tub to graphite and then back to (now black) aluminum tub as it was easier to drive. I know the dead-level, zero kick-up front arms, only 10 degrees of caster built into the front uprights, no ackermann and terrible scrub radius made all the cars "nervous" handlers but I'm curious how they compared to the original (non-xls) CAT which was also reported to be a sharp, overly responsive buggy.

[Snappy1]

The VQS/Vanquish handling may also have to do with the inboard rear shocks compared to the rear mounted of the rest of the family.

[Pablo68]

Without knowing for sure, (I don't race but I have an Avante and an Egress) I would have thought that logically the Vanquish or VQS would have been the best being the furthest away from the Avante startpoint. That alot of the issuew would be sorted so to speak.
Looking at the responses though it seems that's not the case. I can't speak to the handling of the Avante or Egress as I've turfed the center diffs as I could never get them to work, only tightened down to an unreasonable amount and they still slipped. Hence solid center gears on mine so they are both a tad twitchy and darty in handling.
The Egress is easier to work on so far though, and it has been re-re-ed a couple times so I think I'd go with that.

[simalarion]

And the 100$ Question @Mad Ax - Are you closing in on a decision or are you dropping this?.

Myself been drooling over Black Egress a long time but i have the mentioned problem

[moffman]

The avante group of buggies are tamiya at its best IMO! And yes I know they have as many floors in them as the Empire State Building but as miniature pieces of engineering they are superb (just giving my unbiased view their)

I would lean towards the egress if I was to choose any of them because it has all of the gear in it to make it as usable as it can be as a 30 year old design! And a set of modern tyres and you have a buggy that isn’t going to be a championship contender buggy really good fun to run!

[Saito2]

4 hours ago, Pablo68 said:

Without knowing for sure, (I don't race but I have an Avante and an Egress) I would have thought that logically the Vanquish or VQS would have been the best being the furthest away from the Avante startpoint. That alot of the issuew would be sorted so to speak.
Looking at the responses though it seems that's not the case.

You're not totally off base. Every car in the series following the Avante is improved and better sorted. The original Avante is most different of the bunch. 

The Avante comes out as beautiful, but heavy and somewhat fragile. It has a center ball diff and planetary f/r diffs. The geometry built into the car I mentioned earlier plus short wheelbase, slop in steering and wide front wheels make it twitchy. Aluminum rod ends are heavy and can pop off and the rods themselves, bent in collisions.

Tamiya doggedly persist with the platform offering many upgrades to help :Ballraced steering rack to cut steering slop, lightweight wheel set with narrower front wheels, titanium hardware to cut weight, Hicap shocks with an extension tower for the front and the biggest hop-up, the carbon graphite chassis set. The chassis set not only includes a longer wheelbase, redesigned chassis but also new PA plastic suspension pieces for lighter weight and greater durability. The set remakes most of the car. Ball diffs and a center one-way option are also made available.

The Vanquish is then introduced mistakenly thought of as a budget Avante when it was a superior performer. It includes a boxed plastic tub chassis with a longer wheelbase like the CG chassis set. It also comes stock with the lightweight wheelset and all the plastic suspension components found inn the CG chassis set. The CVA shocks, included MSC and 540 silvercan probably threw people off thinking the car was just a de-contented Avante when, in fact, it performed better for less money. It also has a center ball diff and planetary f/r diffs.

The Egress is then introduced as basically a buggy with all the aforementioned hop-ups included in one kit. Buy all the hop-ups and put them on an Avante and you basically got an Egress. About to only unique parts to the Egress were an even taller front shock tower and lower mounting hardware used to get the shocks even more vertical. Since it has all the hop-ups, the center ball diff is left out and the owner has the option of a locked center or one-way setup. The planetary diffs are replaced with f/r ball diffs.

The Avante 2001 comes out as a budget Egress. It goes back to the original diff set up and looses things like the titanium screws and hicap shocks, etc. The carbon graphite chassis is replaced with a similar one done in FRP. The Avante cam-loc wheels make a comeback, now in white shod with new spike tires. 

[Pablo68]

22 minutes ago, Saito2 said:

You're not totally off base. Every car in the series following the Avante is improved and better sorted. The original Avante is most different of the bunch. 

The Avante comes out as beautiful, but heavy and somewhat fragile. It has a center ball diff and planetary f/r diffs. The geometry built into the car I mentioned earlier plus short wheelbase, slop in steering and wide front wheels make it twitchy. Aluminum rod ends are heavy and can pop off and the rods themselves, bent in collisions.

Tamiya doggedly persist with the platform offering many upgrades to help :Ballraced steering rack to cut steering slop, lightweight wheel set with narrower front wheels, titanium hardware to cut weight, Hicap shocks with an extension tower for the front and the biggest hop-up, the carbon graphite chassis set. The chassis set not only includes a longer wheelbase, redesigned chassis but also new PA plastic suspension pieces for lighter weight and greater durability. The set remakes most of the car. Ball diffs and a center one-way option are also made available.

The Vanquish is then introduced mistakenly thought of as a budget Avante when it was a superior performer. It includes a boxed plastic tub chassis with a longer wheelbase like the CG chassis set. It also comes stock with the lightweight wheelset and all the plastic suspension components found inn the CG chassis set. The CVA shocks, included MSC and 540 silvercan probably threw people off thinking the car was just a de-contented Avante when, in fact, it performed better for less money. It also has a center ball diff and planetary f/r diffs.

The Egress is then introduced as basically a buggy with all the aforementioned hop-ups included in one kit. Buy all the hop-ups and put them on an Avante and you basically got an Egress. About to only unique parts to the Egress were an even taller front shock tower and lower mounting hardware used to get the shocks even more vertical. Since it has all the hop-ups, the center ball diff is left out and the owner has the option of a locked center or one-way setup. The planetary diffs are replaced with f/r ball diffs.

The Avante 2001 comes out as a budget Egress. It goes back to the original diff set up and looses things like the titanium screws and hicap shocks, etc. The carbon graphite chassis is replaced with a similar one done in FRP. The Avante cam-loc wheels make a comeback, now in white shod with new spike tires. 

Thx for all that! Most appreciated.

[simalarion]

Tamico Avante offer this week:
https://tamico.de/Tamiya-47390-Avante-2011-Black-Special-Bausatz

[naturbo2000]

All my cars are runners. I have an Avante Black and a Top Force Evo. In general, the Evo runs rings round the Avante, but I appreciate that's not your question.

What is interesting is that this past Sunday, I was racing indoor on a polished wooden floor. My Evo was all over the place (I also discovered it was already broken), but the Avante Black had an absolute field day. I believe it put up the most laps on the day, though I ran it in the Tamiya class rather than vintage and so the competition was quite different. The vintages were ProCats BossCats and Cougars and the Avante could have held its own. On Cactus and Fusion tyres, the SWB Avante turned on a dime sixpence.

It doesn't sound like a Black is going to be in the cars to choose from. It's definitely not a sensible choice. But a genuine Avante (inc Black) is a great build (or rebuild if you can break the threadlock and reassemble it) even if it's a massively flawed racecar. For the record I ran mine on NiMH and just kept topping up the battery through the afternoon. It's just too hard work to even change the battery...

It's supposed to be good on an old school dirt track, but I can vouch for it being great on a short and twisty course.

The right answer is the VQS, but who wants to be right?