Does Traxxas revel in being evil?

[bRIBEGuy]

It's been decades since I bought a Traxxas product.  In general, I'm not a big fan of the way they have been running their business, and I think a lot of their actions are morally questionable at best.  BUT....... and this is a BIG BUT..... it is their company, and they are welcome to run it any way they please.  Feel free to stop reading here, 'cause this post has me backing a company that I don't like and choose not to support....

Sadly, this "litigation first" trend is a pretty common business practice in the USA, but often it is rooted in validity.  In the case of this latest "cease and desist" fiasco, it is true that most served were not properly using the Traxxas naming convention within the terms of the Traxxas trademark(s).  So arguably, this IS on the little guy.  Just because you are small doesn't mean you don't have to comply with trademark law.  Just because you're small doesn't mean you can do what you want.  If you used the improper wording, or did not include the proper disclaimers on your product page... that is on you.  Not on Traxxas.

Is this poor behaviour?  Maybe?  Is it bad for our hobby?  Well, I don't think any of this is good for the hobby...... but do keep in mind, this is OUR hobby, not theirs.  It is a BUSINESS to them (to the tune of $30m+/year), and like many large business, they seem like they fiercely want to protect it.  I don't endorse this in any way... but I can't in good faith say they are wrong.

The world sucks.

[markbt73]

There was a way to handle this well, foster good relationships with the aftermarket, garner good will among hobbyists, and cement themselves as benevolent rulers of a large segment of the hobby. Traxxas could have worked with the aftermarket from the start, writing a clear and freely available set of rules and guidelines for making compatible parts for their products, including how to handle trademarks. (They could also not have come up with a dumb trademarkable name for every single dirt-common component of their models, so there wouldn't be as much to enforce.) This would have made it easy for small companies to make parts that fit and work, aren't mistaken for Traxxas's own products, and given hobbyists good reasons to support Traxxas.

Instead, they did the opposite, becoming more insular and proprietary with their designs, doubling down on the trademarks, and lawyering up at the first sign of something they saw as trouble. This is what's making people, including me, rightfully upset.

I'm not going to sell my Stampede. I've had it for too long, and I like it too much. The engineering is brilliant, and it's a lot of fun to drive, just as it should be.  (And it's 25 years old, so it's way older than this nonsense.) But I am going to peel the Traxxas stickers off it, and shred any remaining stickers of theirs I have in my stash. And when something breaks, if I can't get aftermarket parts to fix it, then I guess I'll cannibalize it for parts. And I won't be buying a single one of their products again, not even ball joints or universal drive shafts. (Which is too bad, because they're really good.)

They seem to want two RC hobbies: the Traxxas universe, and Everything Else. Fine by me. I know which one I'd rather live in.

[BelknapCrater]

9 hours ago, moffman said:

I'm working for a company at the moment that is or seemingly going down that self destruction route for explanations unknown only to the narcissistic people at the top! Things which will blatantly hurt the company that everyone can see WILL happen the narcissists making the decisions have a completely different perspective which generally involves self fulfilling money making! 

You work for Specialized Bicycles?

[87lc2]

Unpopular opinion it seems, but why shouldn't they protect their IP?  I'll bet a lot of people here would be mad if some Chinese company ripped off Tamiya product (HG P407 anyone???).  As far as the way they went about it, that's how it's done in this country.  Larger companies need to be efficient and this is the way to go about it.  Sure, it would be great if they could spend time individually calling all of these companies and having a nice little personal chat, but that's useless these days and a waste of time. C&D letters are efficient and to the point, either comply or get sued - pretty simple. 

From what I can tell they are not out to stop anyone from making parts, just from using their rightfully trademarked name & logo.  I see absolutely nothing wrong with it, people are just so sensitive these days.  

With that said, not a huge Traxxas fan as their products are uninspiring and definitely not a fan of some older suits they have brought (Tower), but their name is everything to them, no reason they shouldn't protect it.  

 

[Saito2]

Hmm. Just a few more pieces and I could call this an RPM Bandit instead of a Trashxxas one. Or I could just sell it. Or trash it. Or burn it. So many choices in life!

 

[87lc2]

20 minutes ago, Saito2 said:

Hmm. Just a few more pieces and I could call this an RPM Bandit instead of a Trashxxas one. Or I could just sell it. Or trash it. Or burn it. So many choices in life!

 

Just wait until you replace all of the pieces...If you call it an RPM Bandit and there are still any original parts on it you'll mosy likely be receving a certified letter from the Big T.

[Kowalski86]

48 minutes ago, Saito2 said:

Hmm. Just a few more pieces and I could call this an RPM Bandit instead of a Trashxxas one. Or I could just sell it. Or trash it. Or burn it. So many choices in life!

 

I can always take it if you don't want it!

[Mrowka]

To me, it seems short-sighted on the part of Traxxas. Traxxas should want people to provide aftermarket parts for their products, as that encourages sales of more Traxxas-branded products. 

But I don't run things at Big T 

[Gebbly]

4 hours ago, 87lc2 said:

As far as the way they went about it, that's how it's done in this country. 

I understand sending C&D letters to companies and demanding they remove content from their sites immediately. I dont think its a question of having chats with people in each company. A stock letter to each company would be one way to go. But instead they contacted those companies service providers and got their entire websites taken down immediately stopping them selling anything that wasnt big T. For me thats a step too far.

[87lc2]

3 hours ago, Gebbly said:

I understand sending C&D letters to companies and demanding they remove content from their sites immediately. I dont think its a question of having chats with people in each company. A stock letter to each company would be one way to go. But instead they contacted those companies service providers and got their entire websites taken down immediately stopping them selling anything that wasnt big T. For me thats a step too far.

Didn't realize that, guess I should have paid more attention    I agree that's too much.  I thought it was simply them sending C&D letters to have them stop using the logo/name in their advertising.  If they're taking that extra step without a proper warning I can understand people having issue with that.  

 

[Saito2]

Just a thought, but if Trashxxas wants to create its own separate eco-system where one goes for everything, including hop-ups, wouldn't  aftermarket suppliers be seen as competition? Wouldn't it makes sense to disrupt or even take out that competition by having their websites taken down, even if only temporarily in some cases?

[87lc2]

2 minutes ago, Saito2 said:

Just a thought, but if Trashxxas wants to create its own separate eco-system where one goes for everything, including hop-ups, wouldn't  aftermarket suppliers be seen as competition? Wouldn't it makes sense to disrupt or even take out that competition by having their websites taken down, even if only temporarily in some cases?

Absolutely!  The 1:1 OEs are trying to do this right now.  I'm in the aftermarket parts business and the big three have really cracked down recently due to their own aftermarket product lines.  Funny how it works though, they're more than happy to give licenses for anything & everything for all but the newest generation.  For example - we are able to license just about anything for the S197 Mustang and Wrangler JK, but for the S550 and Wrangler JL its a lot tighter, especially when they offer a product you're trying to license.  

I'm totally fine with protecting IP, but not OK at all with overreach which they do quite often and know that nobody can afford to get into litigation with them.  Its a realy balancing act.  

[Tbird232ci]

I was going to start this same thread a few days ago but didn't really want to stir up and crap.

I have been very against T for many years. I own a few of their vehicles. Only one of them was actually purchased. One was a trade with a friend. Three were vehicles I won in raffles. The only one I purchased was a gift to my girlfriend as she loves her Ford Fiesta and rally cars.

Anyways, the initial reason I was turned off from them was how they went after Arrma. They sued Arrma over an inboard shock patent. T has been known to steal a design, patent it and proceed to sue other companies for what they patented. T also sued companies over things live reverse in nitro cars and waterproof receiver boxes. These are things that were developed many years before T got to the idea, but T patented it first.

A more recent reason which hits closer to home was how they did my local hobby shop dirty. My LHS would only carry products they believed in. They would sell T's cars and parts, but none of their batteries, chargers or electronics. They lost customers when the customer lost trust in the LHS due to them selling dud products. T then threatened to pull their wholesale discount if they didn't sell a certain number of batteries and chargers. My LHS was the largest T vehicle seller in the state at the time. They plead their case with T and they didn't care. They pulled their wholesaler status and my LHS will do absolutely NO business with T.

Even more shenanigans. T filed a lawsuit against HBO over the use of the name "Max" for their streaming service HBO Max. They felt that it would confuse consumers. If you believe consumers are stupid enough to confuse a streaming service with a radio control product, you don't deserve consumers money.

In 2015 of so, they tried to shut down the forum RCtech due to T's name bringing them traffic through search engines and competing with their own forum.

I support a company wanting to protect their IP. It's how companies can protect themselves when they spend large amounts of money doing R&D work and not have their work stolen from them. T is maliciously filing lawsuits to shut out competitors rather than product a quality product.

If you want to laugh, RCkicks on YouTube did a video about a vintage Bandit, and mentions how many of the designs were stolen and what the vehicles were they ripped if off from.

[Rinskie]

I am a little foggy on the details because it was back in the late 80's, early 90's but I remember when T came out with one of their first cars (forget the model). One of the local shops had a chassis built up for all to poke and prod at. It was clearly a copy of the RC10 carbon chassis version but looked inferior due to its white nylon bits and sloppy steering linkages. I remember being interested in the company because they were from the Dallas Fort Worth area where I lived but the local consensus was they were more geared for the sport basher and were not to be taken seriously. Funny how a company that started off by copying someone else's work fights so hard to prevent other companies from what they perceive to be the same. Now that all may not be entirely accurate but it's how a young teen in the early 90's remembers it. 

[Saito2]

9 minutes ago, Rinskie said:

I am a little foggy on the details because it was back in the late 80's, early 90's but I remember when T came out with one of their first cars (forget the model). One of the local shops had a chassis built up for all to poke and prod at. It was clearly a copy of the RC10 carbon chassis version but looked inferior due to its white nylon bits and sloppy steering linkages.

If it looked akin to the RC10 Graphite, it was probably the TRX-1. Interestingly, they were going to call it the Talon, but 1:1 car manufacturer Jeep/Eagle didn't like that since they sold a version of the Mitsubishi Eclipse called the Talon. Then They were going to call it the Vector, but Airtronics already had that name for their 2 two radio they settled on TRX-1.

[Rinskie]

Thanks Saito, I had to look the chassis up. It looks how I remembered. Pretty neat looking in retrospect but then again, I did always like the RC10 Graphites. 

[Kowalski86]

57 minutes ago, Rinskie said:

I am a little foggy on the details because it was back in the late 80's, early 90's but I remember when T came out with one of their first cars (forget the model). One of the local shops had a chassis built up for all to poke and prod at. It was clearly a copy of the RC10 carbon chassis version but looked inferior due to its white nylon bits and sloppy steering linkages.

Gee, I wonder who the "Wild Cat" took inspiration from...

https://www.rcscrapyard.net/traxxas-wildcat.htm

1 hour ago, Tbird232ci said:

A more recent reason which hits closer to home was how they did my local hobby shop dirty. My LHS would only carry products they believed in. They would sell T's cars and parts, but none of their batteries, chargers or electronics. They lost customers when the customer lost trust in the LHS due to them selling dud products. T then threatened to pull their wholesale discount if they didn't sell a certain number of batteries and chargers. My LHS was the largest T vehicle seller in the state at the time. They plead their case with T and they didn't care. They pulled their wholesaler status and my LHS will do absolutely NO business with T.

This will always be my main gripe with Traxxas, to me the patent stuff is just "big  business being a big business", same for going after aftermarket competition. It's nonsense that doesn't effect me, but it does bring drama to a hobby that really doesn't need it.

What I don't like is their mafia-behavior to LHS's and them becoming a "default" brand, like Jeep, McDonald's or Wal-Mart.

From my understanding shops aren't allowed to carry the TRX4m unless if they either carry or sell X amount of batteries/chargers. I don't recall the specifics, but it shows the kind of leverage that Traxxas has over LHS's.

I...really don't care for any of the proprietary battery charger stuff, Traxxas or Spektrum. It's easy to fix (and at least Spektrum works on multiple brands). I just feel like it's yet another dumbing down of the hobby.

[Kowalski86]

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[alvinlwh]

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[Kowalski86]

9 minutes ago, alvinlwh said:

Thanks for bringing this up. I was neutral towards this company but after reading into that case, I saw how stupid they are.

Do a search for "Traxxas vs LP" if you need some reading material.

[bRIBEGuy]

On 5/5/2023 at 11:31 AM, 87lc2 said:

From what I can tell they are not out to stop anyone from making parts, just from using their rightfully trademarked name & logo.  I see absolutely nothing wrong with it, people are just so sensitive these days. 

Yes, it was a trademark infringement, not a parts production issue.  Companies pay BIG money to trademark names (a potential thread in and of itself), and then (especially in the USA) will aggressively defend them.  It doesn't seem like a big deal to many of us, but allowing improper usage of trademarks can lead to brand name dilution and loss of revenue.  As I noted in a previous post, Traxxas is bringing in north of $30M/year... I'm pretty sure they don't want that shrinking.
 

On 5/5/2023 at 3:44 PM, Mrowka said:

To me, it seems short-sighted on the part of Traxxas. Traxxas should want people to provide aftermarket parts for their products, as that encourages sales of more Traxxas-branded products.

It's not an issue with parts production, but how the trademarked naming conventions are used.  I've dealt with this in my my day job a few times where we will recieve a C&D letter over something on a website or product listing.  99.5% of the time is a verbiage thing.  "Bearing kit compatible with the Traxxas Slash" is likely fine.  "Traxxas Slash Bearing Kit" is not. 

Again, this seems trivial to us, but we're not Traxxas.
 

On 5/5/2023 at 3:59 PM, Gebbly said:

I understand sending C&D letters to companies and demanding they remove content from their sites immediately. I dont think its a question of having chats with people in each company. A stock letter to each company would be one way to go. But instead they contacted those companies service providers and got their entire websites taken down immediately stopping them selling anything that wasnt big T. For me thats a step too far.

Common practice for the C&D letter to go to the service provider, as technically they would be liable as well.  It would be the service providers choice to shut down the website, as it is a cheap and easy insurance policy to protect themselves.  The issue here the individual companies have is with their service provider, not with Traxxas.  IMO...

 

On 5/6/2023 at 7:41 AM, Tbird232ci said:

I have been very against T for many years. ...

Anyways, the initial reason I was turned off from them was how they went after Arrma. They sued Arrma over an inboard shock patent. T has been known to steal a design, patent it and proceed to sue other companies for what they patented....

A more recent reason which hits closer to home was how they did my local hobby shop dirty....

Even more shenanigans. T filed a lawsuit against HBO over the use of the name "Max" for their streaming service HBO Max. ...

THIS is much more inline with why I personally have issues with Traxxas.  They do have some aggressive and shady business practices that do seem to step a bit beyond their (already over the top) trademark "search and destroy"  protection policy. 

The last Traxxas I bought was a 2wd Slash a loooong time ago.  It's a GREAT truck.  But I would be hard pressed to buy another with everything that the company has been up to since.  But that is my choice as a consumer, just as running the company as they do is their decision as a manufacturer (and one that has been undeniably successful for them).  We can complain about it all we want, but the only way things change are if people put their money where their mouth is, and stop supporting the "big guys".  But, in this modern age, it is unlikely for this to happen as fancy marketing and easy purchases rule supreme.

And so we sit.  And so we type....

Just my 2 cents...

[Mrowka]

20 hours ago, bRIBEGuy said:

Yes, it was a trademark infringement, not a parts production issue.  Companies pay BIG money to trademark names (a potential thread in and of itself), and then (especially in the USA) will aggressively defend them.  It doesn't seem like a big deal to many of us, but allowing improper usage of trademarks can lead to brand name dilution and loss of revenue.  As I noted in a previous post, Traxxas is bringing in north of $30M/year... I'm pretty sure they don't want that shrinking.
 

It's not an issue with parts production, but how the trademarked naming conventions are used.  I've dealt with this in my my day job a few times where we will recieve a C&D letter over something on a website or product listing.  99.5% of the time is a verbiage thing.  "Bearing kit compatible with the Traxxas Slash" is likely fine.  "Traxxas Slash Bearing Kit" is not. 

Again, this seems trivial to us, but we're not Traxxas.
 

Common practice for the C&D letter to go to the service provider, as technically they would be liable as well.  It would be the service providers choice to shut down the website, as it is a cheap and easy insurance policy to protect themselves.  The issue here the individual companies have is with their service provider, not with Traxxas.  IMO...

 

THIS is much more inline with why I personally have issues with Traxxas.  They do have some aggressive and shady business practices that do seem to step a bit beyond their (already over the top) trademark "search and destroy"  protection policy. 

The last Traxxas I bought was a 2wd Slash a loooong time ago.  It's a GREAT truck.  But I would be hard pressed to buy another with everything that the company has been up to since.  But that is my choice as a consumer, just as running the company as they do is their decision as a manufacturer (and one that has been undeniably successful for them).  We can complain about it all we want, but the only way things change are if people put their money where their mouth is, and stop supporting the "big guys".  But, in this modern age, it is unlikely for this to happen as fancy marketing and easy purchases rule supreme.

And so we sit.  And so we type....

Just my 2 cents...

I can't speak to Traxxas, having never gotten or seen a C&D from them, but I have seen C&D letters that take such an aggressive stance.

[OnTheTrail]

I'm most likely in the minority here but for the most part, I don't see an issue in what Traxxas did.  Could they have done it more tactfully?  Sure, but seeing as how I work for a company that has had to defend it's trademarks and patents for decades, my guess is Traxxas has tried this tactfully in the past and it didn't work.  You can send letters all you want to small companies in certain parts of the world and all Traxxas would have done was waste the paper and certified postage fees.  

Heck, about two years ago an entire container of pirated accessories was confiscated at the port of Washington that had boxes that were identical to our company's, including the trademarks and carton colors etc.  Same exact thing with our competitors.   If those pirated items were used in our products and caused service or even safety issues, then to most people, that looks bad to our brand.   Oh, and by the way,  that was only one or two containers caught, many others made their way into the U.S. market and I have to deal with the service issues they cause to this day.  Granted,  this Traxxas scenario isn't about pirated Traxxas parts or vehicles but hopefully this give some perspective on why companies have to risk these bold moves to protect their brand.   

If you think Traxxas is a bully, try your luck at trademark infringements to likes of Coca Cola, Oakley, Nike, NCAA, NFL, Microsoft etc.   You'll wish your only problem was a a day to two without your ISP up.  

The thing that bothered me the most about all the "Traxxas is bad" initial social media stories is very few of them mentioned the fact that Traxxas NEVER said these folks can't make aftermarket parts that fit their RCs.  They just had to use the trademarks properly.   As mentioned above and others have commented on, you can send cease and desist letters but most of these companies will laugh.   Going to the ISP providers was one way they could get their attention and get them to make the changes.  

Do I buy aftermarket accessories for my Tamiya, Traxxas, Axial etc RCs?    Absolutely and I will continue to but I don't fault a company that tries to protect it's brand.   Nor do I fault a company (large or small) that tries to make product that people demand as long as they play by the rules.  

[Pablo68]

I wonder if Traxxas have tried to copyright  the uppercase letter X yet?

[alvinlwh]

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