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Kowalski86

Prices in the RC Hobby

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I've been trying to figure something out about RCs, and this pertains to all "mainstream" brands, including Tamiya. Why are the prices for different segments almost all the same across companies?

Let's take the Traxxas Slash, $200 without a battery. Since it sells well you get a handful of other companies selling identical RTR 2WD 550 12 Turn powered SCTs.

And yet, rather than undercut Traxxas or offer more out of the box, most of them go for the same price without offering any of the benefits, why?

This is the same for crawlers, where $300 is the bare minimum for a scale 1/10 crawler regardless of brand. $140 For small Stomper sized Axial competitor, or FMS.

I know that a lot of these companies have MAPs in play, but is there something else going on that I'm not aware of?

Credit where it's due to Tamiya for sticking to their own thing and offering kits.

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On 5/24/2023 at 7:14 AM, Kowalski86 said:

Credit where it's due to Tamiya for sticking to their own thing and offering kits.

My little man built a Traxxas Slash kit this winter.

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35 minutes ago, Mrowka said:

My lity

My little man built a Traxxas Slash kit this winter.

It's strange that they're one of the few other companies that offer non-racer kits.

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In my experience, Tamiya is the most expensive while offering the least out of box. Having said that, I stick to only the <£200 kits so will be considered the budget range of the market?

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Perhaps one exception worth noting; the ECX Torment RTR is in direct competition with the Slash yet it costs around $50 less.

In many ways, Tamiya has hit upon the perfect formula; a wide range of kits (on and off-road, cars, trucks, buggies, crawlers, etc.) available just about everywhere in the world in a wide price range.  A basic TT-02 kit still costs a little over $100. 

Kits are better suited to new entries into the hobby because they offer a learning experience which is key to maintaining and repairing the vehicle.

I convinced my neighbor to buy his 11 year old son his first hobby grade RC and he selected the 1/16 E-Revo RTR.  He managed to break the chassis on the first day so I offered to repair the truck for them because they had no clue how it was assembled.  If they had built the truck from a kit, they could have repaired it themselves.

Anyway, some companies have undercut their market-leading competitors on price for some of their models but I reckon there are only a few examples.

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5 hours ago, IXLR8 said:

Kits are better suited to new entries into the hobby because they offer a learning experience which is key to maintaining and repairing the vehicle.

I convinced my neighbor to buy his 11 year old son his first hobby grade RC and he selected the 1/16 E-Revo RTR.  He managed to break the chassis on the first day so I offered to repair the truck for them because they had no clue how it was assembled.  If they had built the truck from a kit, they could have repaired it themselves.

I've read and seen that happen all too often, that's a whole debate itself.

It's been said that RTR gets more people into the hobby, but I argue that it turns away it's share of people once they see how expensive their 50mph missle costs to fix.

6 hours ago, alvinlwh said:

In my experience, Tamiya is the most expensive while offering the least out of box.

I had to think on that for a moment, but I can't think of anyone that still uses plastic bushings and aluminum pinions.

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Well, the raw materials cost the same for everyone, as do the machines to make the stuff. They all have to buy hardware and bearings and motors and electronics and whatnot from a handful of the same suppliers, who probably charge them all similar amounts. So it makes sense that the prices should be similar for comparable models.

What bothers me is how homogenized the hobby has become. Everyone makes basically the same thing. In the '80s, you'd see a "monster truck shootout" in the magazines with half a dozen trucks, all similar in size and comparable in price, with wildly different chassis designs. Nowadays, you line up half a dozen short-course trucks, and you need to check the decal sheet to see which one is which. It's one of the things I'm thankful to Tamiya (and Kyosho) for: variety in design. Sometimes it doesn't work as well, but at least it doesn't look just like everything else.

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8 hours ago, Kowalski86 said:

 

And yet, rather than undercut Traxxas or offer more out of the box, most of them go for the same price without offering any of the benefits, why?

 

If it sells, why would they? 
 

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Isn't capitalism kinda about producing things as cheaply (often referred to as "efficiently" in more civilized circles) as possible and then charging the most amount the market will bear to maximize profit at all cost to better line the pockets of those at the top?

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5 hours ago, markbt73 said:

Well, the raw materials cost the same for everyone, as do the machines to make the stuff. They all have to buy hardware and bearings and motors and electronics and whatnot from a handful of the same suppliers, who probably charge them all similar amounts. So it makes sense that the prices should be similar for comparable models.

What bothers me is how homogenized the hobby has become. Everyone makes basically the same thing. Nowadays, you line up half a dozen short-course trucks, and you need to check the decal sheet to see which one is which. It's one of the things I'm thankful to Tamiya (and Kyosho) for: variety in design. Sometimes it doesn't work as well, but at least it doesn't look just like everything else.

A lot of them are made over in China (though a few in Taiwan), Tamiya is one of the few RC companies that has most of its plastic/shells/etc made in the Phillipines, with higher end models being made in Japan.

You're not wrong about design, which is partly what led to me creating this thread. The only 2wd SCT that has caught my eye is the HPI Jumpshot, most of the rest use an identical plastic delta tub chassis and similar styling on the body shells. The Kyosho Rampage is the only 1/10 scale "trophy truck" that I'm aware of that uses a solid rear axle like the real thing.

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3 hours ago, Saito2 said:

Isn't capitalism kinda about producing things as cheaply (often referred to as "efficiently" in more civilized circles) as possible and then charging the most amount the market will bear to maximize profit at all cost to better line the pockets of those at the top?

From my understanding, a common tactic in RC is to lure in a new buyer with a cheap RTR that goes 300mph, then sell them replacement parts and hop ups for repeated profits (and of course very expensive proprietary LiPO batteries). Going by this theory I'd expect more frequent sales, lower prices, and more competition among manufacturers.

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I think @markbt73 has got it - the manufacturing process has been homogenised and refined so much that end-to-end costs are going to be similar across all the brands, the only wiggle room is in the profit margin, and even then, they're probably relying on volume sales over big margins.  The ones who do offer cheaper products (such as ECX, FTX, and other lesser-known brands) may be working on slightly different business models - which means they have lower costs, but lower QC, less reliable parts supply and more variation in components (e.g. buying parts in smaller volume from whoever happens to be selling cheapest at the time, instead of committing to a longer-term contract from a single supplier).

I was chatting to my LHS owner last week, he says he makes very little markup on big-box sales.  In fact at big events like Revival, where he tends to sell more big boxes (and therefore needs to hire a van to transport them), he often doesn't cover costs.

10 hours ago, markbt73 said:

What bothers me is how homogenized the hobby has become. Everyone makes basically the same thing. In the '80s, you'd see a "monster truck shootout" in the magazines with half a dozen trucks, all similar in size and comparable in price, with wildly different chassis designs.

I totally get this, I loved how different everything used to be and how imaginative the whole process seemed to be in those days.

On the flipside, modern design and manufacturing techniques means we now have several brands making monster trucks that are actually built like real monster trucks, with solid axles and centrally-mounted motors.  Back in the 80s, most of them were rear wheel drive with independent suspension.

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13 hours ago, markbt73 said:

Well, the raw materials cost the same for everyone, as do the machines to make the stuff. They all have to buy hardware and bearings and motors and electronics and whatnot from a handful of the same suppliers, who probably charge them all similar amounts. So it makes sense that the prices should be similar for comparable models.

What bothers me is how homogenized the hobby has become. Everyone makes basically the same thing. In the '80s, you'd see a "monster truck shootout" in the magazines with half a dozen trucks, all similar in size and comparable in price, with wildly different chassis designs. Nowadays, you line up half a dozen short-course trucks, and you need to check the decal sheet to see which one is which. It's one of the things I'm thankful to Tamiya (and Kyosho) for: variety in design. Sometimes it doesn't work as well, but at least it doesn't look just like everything else.

I agree. I think there is a huge homogenization of the hobby, but that's understandable really I think largely people are most interested in performance and there probably is a "best" design for most things that manufactures are converging on. For me the mechanics of how they work, quirks and difference between really varied vehicles is what makes it interesting.

I really like that Tamiya make things like the TD4, GF01 etc. That being said I wouldn't mind if they made a new solid axle MT like Axial etc or a full on trophy truck (just at 1:10 scale, not "new" 1:10 scale).

 

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4 hours ago, Nikko85 said:

I agree. I think there is a huge homogenization of the hobby, but that's understandable really I think largely people are most interested in performance and there probably is a "best" design for most things that manufactures are converging on. For me the mechanics of how they work, quirks and difference between really varied vehicles is what makes it interesting.

I really like that Tamiya make things like the TD4, GF01 etc. That being said I wouldn't mind if they made a new solid axle MT like Axial etc or a full on trophy truck (just at 1:10 scale, not "new" 1:10 scale).

It's a natural progression I think that in the early stages of development of a product category or market there are lots of different new ideas cropping up, some great, some good but heading towards a dead end and some just not very good. As the market or product category matures there's a tendency to settle on one type of design, because most options have been tried and a certain approach is accepted as overall "best", with genuinely different ideas becoming few and far between. Evolution over revolution, if you like. Revolutions do happen, but they're relatively less common. 

So performance RC cars in any given category are going to tend towards a fairly homogenous range. 

In this case though it can be a bit different where the market is into the differences for their own sake, because a lot of it is about the building and the interest and not overridinglyly the performance. I think this is why you can see those quirks from Tamiya and Kyosho and you're not going to see them much from manufacturers of either race models or RTR. 

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5 hours ago, BuggyDad said:

It's a natural progression I think that in the early stages of development of a product category or market there are lots of different new ideas cropping up, some great, some good but heading towards a dead end and some just not very good. As the market or product category matures there's a tendency to settle on one type of design, because most options have been tried and a certain approach is accepted as overall "best", with genuinely different ideas becoming few and far between. Evolution over revolution, if you like. Revolutions do happen, but they're relatively less common. 

So performance RC cars in any given category are going to tend towards a fairly homogenous range. 

In this case though it can be a bit different where the market is into the differences for their own sake, because a lot of it is about the building and the interest and not overridinglyly the performance. I think this is why you can see those quirks from Tamiya and Kyosho and you're not going to see them much from manufacturers of either race models or RTR. 

I didn't have a buggy back then, but it's my theory that this rapid pace of evolution and even radical change is what made The Golden Age of R/C Buggies so golden. The rules of the game weren't set, and nobody really knew what would be coming next or from whom, whether in terms of product, manufacturer, or driver. 

Anyway, my kid loves to build, and I wanted him actually to learn how his Slash goes together so that's why I got the kit. 

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A big driving force in the "homogenization" of the hobby is the simple fact that all these different brands are really just selling EXACTLY the same thing.  made at the same chinese factory.   hobby king is now selling the same thing that motionrc is selling.  horizon hobby is selling a lot of stuff under their "blade" store brand that hobbyking sells under their "firefox" store brand, and its identical to eachine and wfly...   the only difference is the decals and the label on the box.    and the price

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On 5/24/2023 at 5:52 PM, Saito2 said:

Isn't capitalism kinda about producing things as cheaply (often referred to as "efficiently" in more civilized circles) as possible and then charging the most amount the market will bear to maximize profit at all cost to better line the pockets of those at the top?

Capitalism provides employment and rewards innovation and hard work.  Without it, we'd all be slaves to the government.

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10 minutes ago, IXLR8 said:

Capitalism provides employment and rewards innovation and hard work.  Without it, we'd all be slaves to the government.

As long as you don't infringe patent #97809-66790 for an automated cobweb removal device, you're correct.

But I'd like to stick to RCs for this discussion. One of the more confusing things for me has always been the prices of 1/10 crawlers, with most being at the $300 mark. I guess crawlers cost more to build? The bodies are very detailed for the most part so that plays a role.

After looking into the "basher" and racing segments, I'm thinking that a crawler is more up my alley. But it's a bit difficult to pull the plug on something new with that price.

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11 hours ago, Kowalski86 said:

As long as you don't infringe patent #97809-66790 for an automated cobweb removal device, you're correct.

But I'd like to stick to RCs for this discussion. One of the more confusing things for me has always been the prices of 1/10 crawlers, with most being at the $300 mark. I guess crawlers cost more to build? The bodies are very detailed for the most part so that plays a role.

After looking into the "basher" and racing segments, I'm thinking that a crawler is more up my alley. But it's a bit difficult to pull the plug on something new with that price.

I agree on all counts.  Most of my crawlers cost much more than other RC's I have.  I think it's probably due to the quantity of metal vs plastic parts - crawlers typically use a lot of metal.  Metal tooling (stamping, forming and casting dies) are often more costly to make and maintain than plastic molds so the part prices reflect that fact.

One noteworthy except is the cheap and cheerful HG P407 "Bruiser Clone" which is almost entirely metal.  However, I don't believe a little company like HG has actually commissioned the tooling for that truck.  I think the tooling was borrowed from Tamiya's suppliers.  I have no evidence to offer, it's just a hunch.

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1 hour ago, IXLR8 said:

I agree on all accounts.  Most of my crawlers cost much more than other RC's I have.  I think it's probably due to the quantity of metal vs plastic parts - crawlers typically use a lot of metal.  Metal tooling (stamping, forming and casting dies) are often more costly to make and maintain than plastic molds so the part prices reflect that fact.

 

They're more expensive than entry level off-roaders, but they're not far from decent touring cars and certainly not as expensive as some of the more "hardcore" bashers.

The metal tooling certainly plays a big role, and all of the extra detail needed for the shells.

But, I'm thinking that the extra cost could be worth it when you aren't breaking things (bashing) or buying little boxes that go "beep" and racing gear.

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1 hour ago, Kowalski86 said:

But, I'm thinking that the extra cost could be worth it when you aren't breaking things (bashing) or buying little boxes that go "beep" and racing gear.

That's a very good point.

I'm stating the obvious here but the bottom line is the hobby is about having fun so buy what makes you happy. 

I have crawlers because I appreciate the scale accuracy that many of them offer not because I enjoy rock crawling.  I don't "bash" because I hate fixing broken RC's - that makes me very unhappy.

That said, if you enjoy bashing but purchase a crawler because it's ultimately less expensive, at some point you will be disappointed.  

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If you increase 70s / 80s / 90s RC prices - and consumer wages - by inflation today’s kits have never been better value / ‘costing’ roughly a third what they used to 

And the manufacturers still make a reasonably healthy margin - especially if they tightly control distribution like Tamiya do

Put simply, the hobby became a volume game over the years - becoming more affordable for all at the expense of quality, innovation and the unique quirks everyone of of certain age will fondly remember 

Whether all that’s a good or bad thing has had a healthy contrast of views on here over the years 😂

For me, some brands largely tap into wealthy nostalgia (Tamiya / Kyosho) and others focus on a younger crowd raised on the immediacy of Apple / Amazon (Traxxas / Axial) 

Each to their own in my book - but there’s no point complaining if we all still buy what’s on offer / because voting with our pockets is the only way we force manufacturers to change 👍

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6 hours ago, Kowalski86 said:

One of the more confusing things for me has always been the prices of 1/10 crawlers, with most being at the $300 mark. I guess crawlers cost more to build? The bodies are very detailed for the most part so that plays a role.

Dang. Ours cost nearly that and they came unbuilt and without bodies! 

But yeah, pretty much no further costs incurred since build in a reasonable amount of running, so value is ok. Same can't be said of our faster off roaders, but if I'm honest we probably do get more fun out of those. When they're not broken. 

I reckon if I did rc now as I did in 1987, it'd be cheaper now, in real terms. I don't though, so it definitely isn't 😜

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4 hours ago, IXLR8 said:

That's a very good point.

I don't "bash" because I hate fixing broken RC's - that makes me very unhappy.

That said, if you enjoy bashing but purchase a crawler because it's ultimately less expensive, at some point you will be disappointed.  

Same, I accept that RCs will wear out and things will break, but my idea of "bashing" is just going off-road and jumping curbs, things that a simple Hornet can endure.

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11 hours ago, SuperChamp82 said:

If you increase 70s / 80s / 90s RC prices - and consumer wages - by inflation today’s kits have never been better value / ‘costing’ roughly a third what they used to 

I came to post this exactly this. RC has never been so ‘cheap’.

One thing I do bang on about a lot on other forums. I think everyone needs to look at how something holds its value/how easy it is to sell. Im going to go with a crawler as thats whats been mentioned here. A TRX4 may cost a lot in your opinion, but it will hold MOST of that value if you dont sink a fortune into it. If you bought a TRX4 brand new, kept it stock used it but looked after it, youd get most your money back on re sale. All these budget/WL Toys etc stuff? I think that has anywhere near the same resale value, and is effectively worthless after youve used it. Something to consider..

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