Tamiya's product strategy is missing opportunities to bring in new fans

[alvinlwh 5894]

2 hours ago, Kpowell911 said:

Is it there any where I can read about Tamiya’s financials or are they private?

There is an old thread discussing this.

 

But I think this post answered your real question.

 

[alvinlwh 5894]

5 hours ago, bRIBEGuy said:

A single new injection mould tool for Tamiya to do a new bumper/wing/body mount could be a $100k investment for them.

I do wonder about this. While the high startup cost of developing and producing the moulds was true in the past, is it still true these days with CAD and CNC? I mean, in the static world, many new startup brands are beating Tamiya some/most/all of the following: quality, fit, accuracy, details and most importantly, price. And bear in mind, static models often costs far less than a RC kit and yet there are less/no hopups as an additional revenue stream. In fact most static hopups come from third parties. Yet they can sometime undercut Tamiya by nearly half while offering more in the box like metal gun barrel and PE parts.

I mean, even a LHS YouTuber managed to develop his own brand of model kits, and they sell at perfectly reasonable prices.

 

[Kowalski86 3030]

1 hour ago, alvinlwh said:

And bear in mind, static models often costs far less than a RC kit and yet there are less/no hopups as an additional revenue stream.

I'm fairly certain that when it comes to Tamiyas modeling division, their vast array of various tools, paints, and other modeling supply are meant to be apart of their revenue stream.

[one_hit 1045]

8 hours ago, Kowalski86 said:

Seems par for the course for race-grade RCs unfortunately, Team Associated and TLR play that game too iirc.

In personally not a fan of it, but I guess bare bones "beginners" models and hop ups sell more.

In the case of Tamiya, it’s not just the beginners chassis, even their mid level chassis have the same business model. I was even able to build another TA05 V2 R from the stock parts I removed from hopping up my first one. I replaced almost everything in that one - chassis, bulkheads, diffs, damper stays, steering, motor mount.

Right now though, I’m not sure what Tamiya are thinking. TA08 parts seem to be as hard to find as TA05 parts. 

[lsear2905 1279]

My issue is not the re-releases - they are Tamiya's equivalent of the Porsche Cayenne. If you don't know what I mean: https://www.hotcars.com/how-cayenne-saved-porsche-from-bankruptcy/

TL:DR; the Cayenne, an ugly, overpriced (did I mention ugly?) off-roader sacrilegious to the Porsche ethos is a gigantic cash-cow that allows Porsche to develop the cars young men dream of.

I just think that Tamiya's biggest misstep over the last few years has been rock-crawling. The CC02 is a joke, the CR01 is prehistoric, and the F350 'High Lift' is overpriced and historic. This niche has seen the biggest explosion in popularity, and it absolutely plays to Tamiya's strengths - detailed bodies, kits and slow speeds! They could play in the 1:10 space with the Axial SCX10 or the Traxxas TRX4, or go to a smaller scale where Kyosho have killed it with the Mini Z 4x4, Axial's SCX24 is ubiquitous and the TRX4M is the hottest item on sale at the moment.

They have missed their opportunity to innovate, but they could at least try to play catch up!

[alvinlwh 5894]

4 hours ago, Kowalski86 said:

I'm fairly certain that when it comes to Tamiyas modeling division, their vast array of various tools, paints, and other modeling supply are meant to be apart of their revenue stream.

Yeah, I forgot about those. Yes, one can almost argue just look at their paint range will show the basis towards static models. There are far more paint for static models than PC.

Having said that, I think Tamiya paint belongs only to their own ecosystem. I don't recall any other brand specify Tamiya paint other than themselves. So on the paint front, I think GSI is the biggest modelling paint maker in the world, at least by "specification share".

As for their tools, a lot are just marked up reboxing (again) of other manufacturers' tools, often with the original manufacturer's name still stamped on the tool itself. Still, they are good and popular items so yeah, a good income for them.

[Busdriver 6209]

We just keep buying the stuff and they keep selling it!!!!!

[Honza 936]

3 hours ago, one_hit said:

In the case of Tamiya, it’s not just the beginners chassis, even their mid level chassis have the same business model. I was even able to build another TA05 V2 R from the stock parts I removed from hopping up my first one. I replaced almost everything in that one - chassis, bulkheads, diffs, damper stays, steering, motor mount.

Right now though, I’m not sure what Tamiya are thinking. TA08 parts seem to be as hard to find as TA05 parts. 

 

I always thought that Tamiyas midrange was their strength - TB02 and TA05 were very popular back in the day, because they brought great compromise of performance and price, while also coming with body. 

Now that they provide only Pro kits without bodies, it's not appealing for most of customers and even for distributors - Local distributor never stocked TA07/TB-05 and M-07/8 for that reason... And in response, Tamiya is limiting production of these chassis and their parts.. It's quite sad

Looks like that XV-02 is following trend. XV-01 non-pro was immensely popular and immediately flooded races. XV-02 Pro is too expensive and year after release, I've seen only one on a race track..

[alvinlwh 5894]

19 minutes ago, Honza said:

Now that they provide only Pro kits without bodies, it's not appealing for most of customers and even for distributors - Local distributor never stocked TA07/TB-05 and M-07/8 for that reason

Guess a naked chassis sometimes with not even wheels is hardly appealing for someone looking for an impulse buy, which brings me to something I said before, Tamiya is (mostly) a consumer grade brand. Cheap kits like the TT just to keep the turnover going. Yah, I am sure there will be someone coming along and telling me how great their R, RR, S, SRX, TRF Pro, etc range are but the turn over on those are really small, or like in your example, non existent at all in some shops.

[MadInventor 3884]

On 6/1/2023 at 9:06 AM, ThunderDragonCy said:

Oh man I would go an rc tractor! 

 

[Kowalski86 3030]

3 hours ago, alvinlwh said:

Yah, I am sure there will be someone coming along and telling me how great their R, RR, S, SRX, TRF Pro, etc range are but the turn over on those are really small, or like in your example, non existent at all in some shops.

In the few LHS's around me that carry Tamiya I never, ever see "chassis kits". Usually it's just re-releases and a few M or TT models.

Imo, the "Super Duper" variants are really just for the fans and TCS racers. Though the SRX might be the most ridiculous "variant" that I've seen.

 

[alvinlwh 5894]

4 minutes ago, Kowalski86 said:

In the few LHS's around me that carry Tamiya I never, ever see "chassis kits". Heck I hardly ever see their newer buggy offerings.

My local toy shop recently started bringing in Tamiya and this is their entire shipment.

Looks like it is still on the boat for me if I want to go to a proper model shop.

[ad456 330]

@alvinlwh, is all that at Grooves?!

[Kowalski86 3030]

6 minutes ago, alvinlwh said:

My local toy shop recently started bringing in Tamiya and this is their entire shipment.

Looks like it is still on the boat for me if I want to go to a proper model shop.

Its funny how giant that Grasshopper kits box is compared to the newer releases.

[alvinlwh 5894]

18 minutes ago, ad456 said:

@alvinlwh, is all that at Grooves?!

Yeap!

There goes my dream of being the first Tamiya dealer up here!

[ad456 330]

Cool, I’ll get words with the owner sometime, maybe see if he’s got the whole catalogue available to him

[alvinlwh 5894]

4 minutes ago, ad456 said:

Cool, I’ll get words with the owner sometime, maybe see if he’s got the whole catalogue available to him

I just left a message on their FB suggesting that they do an ordering service for paints. It will be difficult for them to carry the entire stock but perhaps they can get them on an ad-hoc basis. You can also suggest it to Neil maybe? Saves us from forcing ourselves to a £30+ order from TTM, and keeping the business local.

[alvinlwh 5894]

29 minutes ago, Kowalski86 said:

Its funny how giant that Grasshopper kits box is compared to the newer releases.

Actually now that you mentioned it, I noticed one thing, it seems like they do not even bother to do box art on their newer kits instead just putting a picture of the completed article on a pretty generic box.

[ad456 330]

19 minutes ago, alvinlwh said:

I just left a message on their FB suggesting that they do an ordering service for paints. It will be difficult for them to carry the entire stock but perhaps they can get them on an ad-hoc basis. You can also suggest it to Neil maybe? Saves us from forcing ourselves to a £30+ order from TTM, and keeping the business local.

I’ve known Neil for a lot of years, he’s pretty approachable even if ya don’t know him, so if ya see him just ask. 

[Kowalski86 3030]

30 minutes ago, alvinlwh said:

Actually now that you mentioned it, I noticed one thing, it seems like they do not even bother to do box art on their newer kits instead just putting a picture of the completed article on a pretty generic box.

That's still better than some of the chassis kits.

The real shame is the packaging, re-releases have everything divided up neatly. The newer kits have everything tossed into a box (like the super duper SRX), I don't recall the bags on my M05 having any labeling either.

[bRIBEGuy 3044]

12 hours ago, alvinlwh said:

I do wonder about this. While the high startup cost of developing and producing the moulds was true in the past, is it still true these days with CAD and CNC? I mean, in the static world, many new startup brands are beating Tamiya some/most/all of the following: quality, fit, accuracy, details and most importantly, price. And bear in mind, static models often costs far less than a RC kit and yet there are less/no hopups as an additional revenue stream. In fact most static hopups come from third parties. Yet they can sometime undercut Tamiya by nearly half while offering more in the box like metal gun barrel and PE parts.

I mean, even a LHS YouTuber managed to develop his own brand of model kits, and they sell at perfectly reasonable prices.

I'm not going to claim that I know everything here, but as I do CAD design professionally and work with both CNC and Injection Moulding from those models, I can assure you that costs are still very high, yes.  CNC has done a great job of increasing the accuracy and possible complexity of tooling moulds (as has EDM), but has not yielded a huge price drop.  In addition, the raw cost of materials continues to rise dramatically, and many are unfamiliar with how big a production level injection mould tool is compared to the part itself (the mould for a single lego brick is the size of a shoe box).  Now, where it is possible for small start ups/ youtubers/etc to dip there toes into this, is a matter of production scale.  When it is time to have a production tool made, you need to look at the number of cycles the tool will go thru, the materials it may use, and the complexity of the shapes being formed.  A small tool designed for a few hundred (or even thousand) cycles, using an easily injected material might be able to be produced for a few thousand dollars.  Heck, some are even 3D printing these themselves and getting a small run of parts from them.  But, as the cycles increase, the tool material (and often design) must change, and so does the cost.  Moving from an aluminum mold to steel will essentially double your machining cost.  Moving to tool steel will double that again.  As part complexity and material options increase, the mould may need many new features (slides, ejectors, etc...).  A 5" x 1/2" plastic part I have experience with was over $30k(usd) in getting the mould done, and that was not designed for long term high volume production.
Now think how many different part sprues are in a Tamiya kit...... maybe 6-12?  And how many of those will get moulded in different materials as well. 

Now don't get me wrong... everything has a flip side, and in the IM world, it's that parts are essentially dirt cheap to produce once the molds are complete and setup in the machine.  It can still take a VERY long time to amortize that original investment, but if a GOOD tool is made WELL, it can run for a VERY long time.  I have no doubt that Tamiya is essentially printing money with most of the "vintage" style kits (grasshopper, ORV, hotshot, etc...) at this point.  This is also a very strong point for Lego, where their IM machines are fully automated, run around the clock, and essentially just keep making the same parts for new kits.

[one_hit 1045]

21 minutes ago, Kowalski86 said:

That's still better than some of the chassis kits.

The real shame is the packaging, re-releases have everything divided up neatly. The newer kits have everything tossed into a box (like the super duper SRX), I don't recall the bags on my M05 having any labeling either.

All their chassis kits come in those boxes with the carrying handle. Been that way for over a decade now. The bags are also still labeled, nothing has changed with regards to the chassis kits. Some re-releases also got a box downgrade, such as the CC-01 Pajero Metaltop Wide, Pajero Rally Sport and Isuzu Mu  

[ad456 330]

3 hours ago, alvinlwh said:

There goes my dream of being the first Tamiya dealer up here!

Sorry but we had a hobby shop in the 90s that had Tamiya, I bought my first Tamiya there, the FF02 Peugeot 306 I think. The shops long gone now though. 

[zuqbu 66]

On 6/1/2023 at 10:14 PM, bRIBEGuy said:

A very interesting thread here for sure... thank you @zuqbu!

I think a lot of the points you bring up are valid, but since I love to play the bad guy (not really.... but also maybe really...), I'll go with the "counterpoint" side of the discussion here.

First up, as pointed out by @alvinlwh, RC is only a small portion of what Tamiya does.  It's the centre of OUR worlds, but not theirs.

Secondly, while you're comment on the rise of motorsports is largely correct, it is worth nothing that may not translate directly to sales of RC cars (if they were available).  I know MANY people that eat/sleep/breath motorsports, but would never "waste time or money" on an "RC Toy".  Also, much of this growth is region specific.... F1 is booming most places, but it's popularity is on the decline in Japan.

Thirdly.......oh, the licensing thing.  I love how people always default to the "Brand A can do it, so why doesn't Brand B?" argument.  It's like saying "Jay Leno can go by a new Lamborghini, so why can't you?".  Licensing contracts can take years to negotiate, and that's assuming the partners are even open to new licensing deals, or want to be in business with each other.  It can be huge $$$, huge restrictions, and huge commitments to get a deal rolling, and that doesn't even begin to dip into the peripheral licensing that may be required.  How many people would buy a Ferrari F1-76 kit if Tamiya didn't also secure the licensing for Shell stickers?  Or Velas, or AWS, etc....... ?  What if the last licensing deal with Ferrari left a bad taste in someones mouth and they just don't what to go down that road again?

Forth up..... cost cost cost...... this is actually an interesting one when looping in the (great) tie in with Lego as a comparison.  The funny thing with Lego, is they get TONS of accolades for all these new kits... but there is next to no new cost for them to release them.  It is extremely rare that Lego is physically releasing new "bricks", so a new kit is essentially just a printing cost once the design (sometimes crowd sourced) and licensing is finished.  Ironically we crucify Tamiya for doing the same thing (putting everything on a TT chassis...).  A single new injection mould tool for Tamiya to do a new bumper/wing/body mount could be a $100k investment for them.  How many times/year do you think they are keen to do that?

Don't get me wrong, I would LOVE more realistic licenced cars (hmmmmm.... but which ones...), but I'm really not all that surprised we don't see them more often.

Tamiya, wanna step up and prove me wrong? 

You are right in terms of costs – the LEGO example is kind of flawed in that regard as their system allows them to throw existing pieces together for new products. Licensing usually works both ways – organising bodies such as the FIA or the ACO usually just see them as a source of income – but manufacturers know that a licensed product creates exposure and marketing for them and usually have a large interest in these deals. Plus Tamiya has strong ties to a lot of companies, for example Toyota.

[WillyChang 1814]

6 hours ago, zuqbu said:

Plus Tamiya has strong ties to a lot of companies, for example Toyota.

believe the first time Toyota actually shared CAD data of new unreleased model with Tamiya was back in 1999 with the final Celica. Tamiya released 1/24 & 1/10 on same day as Toyota 1:1.