Good trade section???

[minijosh]

Can we get a place to say who are good people to trade with and who isn't according to one's own trades with that person?

[netsmithUK]

Not really sure.

I can see why you are asking but its actually a nightmare to try and do. In an ideal world it would be really simple but unfortunately in reality its harder.

Basically you have all sorts of issues like...

- someone has a trade with you and is not happy. Then posts something which says you are a thief and a liar. In your eyes you've done everything spot on. No one else knows the details so it just becomes a slanging match between the two of you on the board.

- someone wants to cause trouble so just makes up 'trade gone bad' posts - who knows if they are genuine or not.

etc etc etc

Virtually everyway you look at it - the only two people that know how a trade goes are the two involved. Others can comment on past experience with either party but that does not mean this particular trade has ran the same way. There is just no proof. Things like copied and pasted emails are worthless and can be forged easily.

The problem is even if issues are resolved, the slander sticks - people always remember the argument not the resolution.

Anyway I can see it, means the whole section decends into argument, heated threads etc etc. And at the end of it still no one is any the wiser about what really happened.

If someone can think of a way of doing it which resolves these issues I'll have another look.

cheers

Chris

[minijosh]

Just make it so you get positive feedbacks. Make some people that are always online admin people to help out on the forum. I'd be glad to help since all I do at work is ummmm maybe I shouldn't say it hehe. I might get in trouble []. Yeah I've seen it on other sites and it goes pretty good. If you want some links, I'll hook you up Chris.

[TWINSET]

Good idea Josh, we could have a section for slow payers lol []

[netsmithUK]

We still have a problem though - even with positives only.

ie we have no way of validating that its a real trade and not someone with just boosting their rating by registering multiple accounts.

Also if you took away all HeiHeiHei negatives and only showed the positives he would like quite a top bloke with quite a few postive and nice things said about him. So positives only is a very misleading thing.

On top of that if someone is feeling ripped off by someone, that has a threead about how great they are, its just going to be impossible to stop them posting. And if as mods we delete those negatives the poster then accuses us of covering for friends, being *** etc etc and again at that point we have no idea if this guy is for real or the person they are talking about is in the wrong and that puts us in a very difficult postion do we delete it or not?(not to mention the extra work) If we leave it how do we justify not letting others post their negatives about other people?

I'm really not trying to be 'negative' about the idea - its something I've raised myself with the other mods on several occasions but we've never come up with a satisfactory way of handling it yet.

Send me the links of where you have seen it working an I'll take a look to see if I am missing something.

Chris

[MonkeyFooty11]

If the feedback option was limited to subscribers, this may stop people from registering false details and boosting their rating. Also if the feedback was kept to,

[]

[xx(]

[V]

..then things couldn't get personal. The ratings would still be subjective but perhaps better than trading with a complete stranger 'blind'.

[minijosh]

I like the way MonkeyFooty11 thinks. That would be perfect for subscribers only.

[netsmithUK]

OK still playing devils advocate here but what if...

I get an email from a normal member saying a subscriber has unfairly left him a [V] (which is just a negative by another name) on a trade that he thinks went OK. What do we do? Also the normal member has no option of leaving the subscriber a feedback at all - which is unfair to say the least.

Like wise we will get emails from members wanting to leave feedback for other members or subscribers etc etc and I have to give reasons why they can't. And it leaves us open to accusations of 'You let subscribers say what they want about us but we can't reply' (and they would be right) - its just going to naturally flow over into board arguements as its their only way forward.

At the end of the day we still have over 10 times more normal members than subscribers, so this would alienate them and at the same time, even if it worked would be very small sample of trades that happen through the club.

Even if we limited it to subscribers leaving feedback for subscribers there is a hole in the logic. If we are saying that subscribers can be trusted to leave feedbacks, but the whole system is there because they can't be trusted to trade fairly, then how can we say that the same person will use the 'feedback' system fairly?

All of this will significantly increase the amount of work we mods have to do.

There is a basic problem that it all comes down to two people and no one else. If someone posts "Don't buy from this seller he is a crook" and the seller posts "Liar, you are the thief" no one else knows what really happened. How does this help anyone? Which do you deal with in the future? Other people that may chip in with opinion still don't really know what happened.

Still looking for a solution...

[MonkeyFooty11]

quote:Originally posted by netsmithUK

OK still playing devils advocate here but what if...

I get an email from a normal member saying a subscriber has unfairly left him a [V] (which is just a negative by another name) on a trade that he thinks went OK. What do we do? Also the normal member has no option of leaving the subscriber a feedback at all - which is unfair to say the least.

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Displaying feedback could be optional, if you feel you've been unfairly responded to you could turn all feedback off. If you want the feedback option displayed then you are accepting whatever someone else's opinion is. Therefore it's a personal choice and there should be little need for moderator involvement.

quote:

Like wise we will get emails from members wanting to leave feedback for other members or subscribers etc etc and I have to give reasons why they can't. And it leaves us open to accusations of 'You let subscribers say what they want about us but we can't reply' (and they would be right) - its just going to naturally flow over into board arguements as its their only way forward.

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Having a subscribers only option on feedback would create a two teir system, but then you're giving a choice to people in the trade area.

1 Deal whith a registered subscriber who displays there feeback score

2 Deal with a normal member and use a little trust.

Feedback could perhaps only be given and received by subscribers and then be displayed as a score under their name in the trade area.

ie. MonkeyFooty11

[] 12 [xx(] 6 [V] 2

quote:

Even if we limited it to subscribers leaving feedback for subscribers there is a hole in the logic. If we are saying that subscribers can be trusted to leave feedbacks, but the whole system is there because they can't be trusted to trade fairly, then how can we say that the same person will use the 'feedback' system fairly?

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The system need not be there because subscribers can not be trusted, just there as an option for people who want to know a little more about someone before paypalling £150 in the hope something turns up in the post. I've payed for small items from people in this club and had no problems at all, but for those wanting larger items for purchase or trade knowing you're dealing with a subscriber with a good rating could be the security you need.

quote:

All of this will significantly increase the amount of work we mods have to do.

There is a basic problem that it ll comes down to two people and no one else. If someone posts "Don't buy from this seller he is a crook" and the seller posts "Liar, you are the thief" no one else knows what really happened. How does this help anyone? Which do you deal with in the future? Other people that may chip in with opinion still don't really know what happened.

Still looking for a solution...

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Well it's always going to be subjective but if the majority of people you've dealt with are positive that must surely say something? If someone is really ripped off then I guess they are going to post a complaint on the board, but that's just as likely now surely?

It wouldn't be a perfect system but could be a step forward from what we have now.

[Bluefoot]

Our local auction site here in NZ runs what they call a "trust-web". On each members profile page you can see a list of members trusted by that member. You can also see a list of members who trust this member.

When you are happy with your trade you can add someone to your trust list. No comments, no aggro.

Not many people use it!

[netsmithUK]

Displaying optional feedback - mmm don't really see the point of this. If you mean you can choose whether a particular feedback is shown then its just the same as saying positive only. Who is going to show their negatives? If you are saying that you can show your feedback rating or not completely - then it will lead to people hiding theirs because their perfect record has been blemished by some nutcase. But then are are stuck between a rock and a hard place. They can leave it and show it, in which case people will have doubts (no matter how good the others are) or they hide everything in which case people think they have something to hide.

Two tier system - basically we can't have a system which does not give people the right of reply. Ie we can't have subscribers being able to say things about members, but not give those members a mechanism for responding to comments.

Disputes do spill over onto the board now, but this system will almost encourage it to be more - particular if the forum is members (as opposed to subscribers) only means of address accusations.

The trust system, is more workable I think. If you allow each subscriber just to list people he has had deals with and is happy to recommend - but even this falls into some of the same traps. I also if people don't use it because they don't want to run the risk of 'recommending' someone that they have dealt with once who may later turn out to be a crook.

I'm really not just being awkward about all this - its actually the kind of service I think we should provide its just I want to be as certain as possible that its a workable solution, thats not going to be a nightmare to administer or not used. And its OK to say 'cant we just try...' but the truth is I have to code it and don't want to code something we throw away later - as this is then just me wasting my time. The more we can get decided in advance the better

Chris

[Gruntfuggly]

Why not just keep completed trades and allow both parties to add a comment? That would give either side the ability to reply to anything they didn't agree with...

Also to prevent trades being 'made up' the seller should be able to add the buyer to the trade, followed by the buyer acknowledging it. That would make the trade complete.

You could also limit the amount of trades that members can create (either per day, or have a system where a new member gets say 10 trade 'points' and then for evey successful trade, they could be awarded another 5 points, or something.

Just a few suggestions...

Also Chirs, If you pull it off so it works, you might be able to sell the software to other websites...

[tamiyarcguy]

Chris how many members can one guy rip off before his name is banned? I met him here and got burned by him and Westy got burned and said he contacted you. I just want to know what it takes.

[netsmithUK]

This is just the point I'm trying to make - we have to make these sort of judgement calls when we get complaints. We get complaints about buyers and sellers, normal users, members and subscribers. We can only decide based on what facts we are given but I agree its very hit and miss.

If I see a post and its in CAPITALS and its just abuse without any real detail eg "xxxx has just f*****g ripped me off the thieving *******" Then I just delete them. There is nothing else I can do, there is no reasoning behind them and no 'facts' to go on.

If the post contains more details that sound viable - then we may let it stand for a while to see if some picks up on it. Otherwise this too will be deleted - as far as our members go its just an unsubstantiated accusation.

In some instances on deleting the post I will email the poster for more details and to explain the situation. At this point I normally get accused by them of being a Nazi etc etc or they don't contact me back, or they take on board what I said and post again in a way which is acceptable.

If asked I will even email the accused person to ask if it can be sorted out amicable - again this can get all sorts of responses.

Quite often the accused person will put a very good explanation forward of their side of the story. Then what do you do? Who do you believe? Which do you ban?

To be honest I tend to go with the most calmly put arguement but thats as unreliable as anything and often both parties argue their corner well.

The problem is the same for buyers and sellers.

What if a buyer is just not happy with what he has bought, when he gets it he figures he paid too much, and lodges a complaint. Seller says he got the photos and hid nothing. Basically it can all fall down to just a small word in the description which means different things to the two of them - what do we do there?

There are loads of instances/holes like this that happen all the time. As Moderators we do not want to be in the position of becoming police, judge and jury. All that means is we get involved in long drawn out arguments. Thats not we I run the club for.

Sometimes I 'know' those involved and it makes it a bit easier - but often its one members I've never heard of accusing another I've never heard of - in which case all I've got to go on is the arguments they put forward.

I appreciate completely that if someone has been ripped off then they want to warn others - which is great, but to implement anything I need a waterproof set of rules to follow and enforce.

If people can suggest a way of handling this then great I'll do my best to do it. But you've got to be prepared to reason you suggestion here because that is just what I have to do whenever I moderate/ban people. The problem here lots of people think we should do something and see it black and white (they've been ripped off - the other guy should be banned) but rolling that out in a club of 6000 people is a harder issue.

Chris

[netsmithUK]

One complaint I get emailed a lot is from buyers that start off ranting and raving about paying for something and not recieving it.

Some get really abusive to the club and the seller. 99% of these people never email me back when I ask them if they paid for insurance or tracking numbers of the parcel.

What do we do here?

Another example.

someone logs a complaint against you. Says you never sent them something. You deny it saying you don't even know who they are.

Someone else logs a complaint a few weeks later, saying you incorrectly described something. You say you described it accurately. We as mods agree with the buyer on seeing the description

a week later, first man registers a different name and accuses you od something else. You deny it

or we get a complaint from a subscriber who says they paid for something you never sent - real trade, which as far as your concerned you sent.

As mods we have no proof of what happened in any of these cases all we know is we have three complaints against you. Would you be happy that we then kicked you out of the club, based on a '3 strikes and you are out' type rule

Big sellers in particular send out lots of items weekly, and things do go missing or it increases their chances that they will involved in somesort of dispute with someone at some point.

Would it be fair if they were suspended over 3 unproven accusations out of 5000 good trades just in the same way as someone gets 3 complaints on 4 items?

Ebays feedback system has a team of people behind it, its own forum and has developed over a number of years and we still all *** about it.

Implementing something better is not going to be an easy job

[Scorchio]

Sounds like a complete nightmare!!!

How about something alot more basic like a 'traderoom certified star' like the 'subscriber stars' and a club disclaimer saying use traderooms at your own risk and sort your issues out between yourselves.

A traderoom certified star is awarded after 5 satisfactory transactions with subscribers or whatever, it can also be removed if somebody really takes the proverbial (I'd hope that would be rare). No real protection added but at least a guideline.

I don't see why mods or admin should get tied up in othere peoples trades when they do enough for the site already.

Just my 2p

[netsmithUK]

I think the idea of 'trusted' sellers being elected by subscribers is about the most workable but i'm not sure of the real worth of it. I accept it may be better than nothing though. But those that elect to nominate someone as 'trusted' have to also accept that they will get grief the first time someone makes a trade based on the confidence that they have been recommended by you. Its not fair I know but it will happen. This will probably put a lot of people off ever nominating anyone because they don't want to get involved when things go bad (just like us mods [] )

At the end of the day, the thing that people most want to know about is those people that are rip off merchants. This is really the hardest but probably most useful nut to crack.

Chris

[Shodog]

Isn't it just as easy to point to your ebay feedback rating when you need a character reference? I bet most of the people here also have ebay accounts

Jim

[Scorchio]

quote:Originally posted by Shodog

Isn't it just as easy to point to your ebay feedback rating when you need a character reference? I bet most of the people here also have ebay accounts

Jim

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Sounds good & shockingly simple [] think I'll just start doing that anyway.

[minijosh]

Boy did I open a can of worms. Sorry for the fun topic Chris but I'd like to receive some props from others that I've traded with. Is there a way to get kudo points?

[netsmithUK]

Its a good thread Josh - its a topic I am asked about and would like to find a solution for

cheers

Chris

[Stickman]

Hi,

The link to ebay feedback is not a bad idea but there is no sure way of stopping a "crooked" TC trader linking to a genuine 100% positive ebayer just to make him/herself look good.

Unless I'm wrong and there is a sure way![?]

Of course its not much good if you don't use ebay and therefore have no feedback, but then again Tamiya collecting seems to demand it!

Cheers and good luck finding a solution (i think you'll need it[])

Dave

[netsmithUK]

You can confirm ebay ids by contacting them via ebay. If they get your message you know its them.

Cheers