BT-01.. ?!

[ChrisRx718 4705]

I think (like most things) a lot will hinge on price. This is a lot less complex than a TT02, so it should cost a lot less. I have more bodyshells than cars (an affliction suffered by many of us!) So a cheap platform I can use which is "anatomically correct" (eg front engine, rwd) is a great option even as a static display piece. 

I like that there's a focus on Toyota just now. It's a shame the BT-01 only does 257 & 251mm wheelbase - I've always wanted a re-release of the Toyota MRS (MR2 in the UK) which we only ever saw on the TA04SS. The only wheelbase to come close to that since has been an FF03 (front wheel drive). The BT-01 could have been mid-engine, rwd, but it appears the wheelbase isn't an option looking at @Mokei Kagaku's Facebook post 

[Honza 1180]

2 hours ago, ChrisRx718 said:

This is a lot less complex than a TT02, so it should cost a lot less.

Is it really less complex? It's only missing front diff and driveshaft, but the chassis is made out of more parts... I guess the price will be similar.

2 hours ago, ChrisRx718 said:

It's a shame the BT-01 only does 257 & 251mm wheelbase

Technically, it can do M-chassis wheelbases as well, if you fit MB-01 front. Not really what you want, but the 239mm variant could have some uses

[Kowalski86 4435]

1 hour ago, Honza said:

Is it really less complex It's only missing front diff and driveshaft, but the chassis is made out of more parts... I guess the price will be similar.

Technically the MB/TB chassis is a little more complex, it being multiple parts with a modern holder thing. Then there is the adjustable toe.

The MB01 is about $20 more than the cheapest TT kit, I expect the same for the TB.

[alvinlwh 7390]

.

[Kowalski86 4435]

1 hour ago, alvinlwh said:

Could be the 'new car premium'?

I think it's the extra detail in the Abarth kit, vs the "lexan blobs" that you get for cheaper TT02s, and of course licensing.

There's plenty of TT-02s that cost about the same as the MB01, and a few that cost even more (older Porsche 911, the Fords, Audi rally, etc).

[alvinlwh 7390]

.

[Crucial 49]

4 hours ago, ChrisRx718 said:

it should cost a lot less

It's listed as £185 rrp on modelsport so it looks like it's being pitched as a higher end model than the TT02.

[Kowalski86 4435]

1 hour ago, Crucial said:

It's listed as £185 rrp on modelsport so it looks like it's being pitched as a higher end model than the TT02.

 I... really hope that Tamiya isnt pretending that this is a "higher end" kit. The MB01 is no more "higher end" than any other TT series, you still get bushings, friction shocks, self tappers, bare bones adjustability, etc etc.

Still barely anymore "higher end" than a Grasshopper tbh.

[alvinlwh 7390]

.

[Kowalski86 4435]

26 minutes ago, alvinlwh said:

Watch it... I had people lecturing me that buying a Tamiya is like buying a BMW/Mercedes/fill in whatever luxury car brand you like and it is "worth it" even with less provided.

If anything my time with Tamiya is starting to remind me of my time with old Volvos (240, 850, etc). Neat if very dated engineering, barely any features, expensive/hard to source parts, always needing small repairs, cheap plastic, but you owned one because you were in a crazy cult who'd pretend that they were "better".

185 Quid translates to $220-something for me, there's a ton of good hobby grade RCs for that price.

[Sogogi 3361]

180 pounds… that is a lot for what it is from info i know. (I am hoping there are some more cool features that i am not aware of yet).

For now i am more interested in celica body that was announced as tt02 kit.

 

[Kowalski86 4435]

2 hours ago, Sogogi said:

180 pounds… that is a lot for what it is from info i know. (I am hoping there are some more cool features that i am not aware of yet).

An XV01 is only $30 more than what this BT01 will supposedly cost. And I can safely say that the XV01 is a "higher grade" than my MB just by looking at the included hop ups.

[TurnipJF 10393]

I think this might be one of those chassis that is quite disappointing in stock form but that can be brought alive with a selection of hop-ups.  I look forward to seeing what Yeah Racing bring out for it.

[ChrisRx718 4705]

I'm almost certain the Modelsport price will be speculative - in fact it's already £165. The UK importer (The Hobby Co) determines RRP in the UK and we can only give a "best guess" prior to this if we know the domestic market price in JPY.

Modelsport are just keen to get something listed to generate clicks and website traffic for now. If you Google "Tamiya BT01" they are like the 4th hit. 

Tamiya could surprise us yet. This needs to be cheeeeap, IMO.

[Kowalski86 4435]

12 minutes ago, ChrisRx718 said:

I'm almost certain the Modelsport price will be speculative - in fact it's already £165. The UK importer (The Hobby Co) determines RRP in the UK and we can only give a "best guess" prior to this if we know the domestic market price in JPY.

Modelsport are just keen to get something listed to generate clicks and website traffic for now. If you Google "Tamiya BT01" they are like the 4th hit. 

Tamiya could surprise us yet. This needs to be cheeeeap, IMO.

Good point, I'll wait until we have a price here in the US before I comment anymore on that.

[alvinlwh 7390]

.

[Kowalski86 4435]

9 minutes ago, alvinlwh said:

I used to be in such a cult but after I sampled the offerings from 3R, HPI, etc... I realised there is a far better world out there. Not to say I don't buy Tamiya anymore (as my recent HS2 build proved it) but I explore more.

I've had that happen myself through buying used Associated and other old "race grade" RCs. Re-Re Tamiyas are at least different from other stuff on the market.

[alvinlwh 7390]

.

[Kowalski86 4435]

17 minutes ago, alvinlwh said:

Buying used may not be a fair comparison since used prices can vary greatly. However when comparing new prices, Tamiya is really poor value for money.

Having said that...

Looking at my collection, they are indeed about half rere. So you maybe onto something about what is going on in my head here. 😁

That's true, maybe that's why I always try to score used Tamiyas with most of the big 3 done already.

The reres aren't really comparable to anything recent, I can't think of any modern buggies that are as "scale" as my FAV. I can think about a dozen identical touring cars to the TT series.

[OoALEJOoO 3334]

What a strange release this BT-01 is shaping up to be. Compared to Tamiya's own TT-01E and TT-02, the only somewhat convincing thing I can see from the BT-01 so far, it's the fact that it can be made RWD of FWD using the provided instructions. From first-hand experience in converting both the TT-01E and TT-02 to RWD and FWD, I can see they are far superior to the BT-01. Here is my reasoning:

• The TT-01E/2 can be converted to RWD or FWD and, given their origins as a 4WD car, you can add a flipped one-way on the non-driven wheels to achieve 4WD braking on both RWD or FWD conversions. This is fantastic as only having rear brakes on the BT-01 will not be a good feature, especially for beginners. For RWD conversions, with 4WD braking you can actually brake, enabling nice RWD racing (something very difficult to do on a RWD braking car). On a FWD conversion, rear brakes add to an interesting FWD rally car. The BT-01 comes across as very limited.

TT-01E with RWD conversion and 4WD braking:

TT-01E with FWD rally conversion and 4WD braking:

• Another option for RWD/FWD TT-01E/2 is to keep the differential on their non-driven axles. This is a massive advantage that opens up significant tweaking possibilities without the need of any hop-ups. I haven't seen any out-of-the-box RWD/FWD car in the market that has a diff on the non-driven wheels, Tamiya or otherwise. You can stiffen or lock the front diff on a RWD conversion to make it very well behaved and nice to drive. Similarly, you can stiffen the rear diff on a FWD conversion to make it more tail-happy for an interesting FWD rally car. Again, the BT-01 is very limited (we'll have to see if a non-driven diff can be modded-in).

TT-02 with RWD conversion and putty-locked front diff:

• A TT-01E/2 with any of the above two mods are fantastic to drive and don't necessitate having grippier tires on the driven axle (something you can see Tamiya anticipates it's needed judging by one of the BT-01 pictures).

• TT-01E/TT-02 RWD conversions have a bit of rear weight bias, which is great. The BT-01 seems to have a similar rear bias, with the motor on the back and a central battery, making it probably comparable.
• On FWD conversions, the TT-01E/2 rear bias makes adding weight on the front bumper necessary. The BT-01 FWD setting would make it have a slight forward bias, but I doubt it's enough (just compare it with the FF-03), still likely necessitating adding weight to the front bumper.
• On the TT-01E/02 you have the flexibility to revert back to 4WD. In other words, the TT-01E/02 can do 4WD, RWD, FWD while the BT-01 can only do an inferior RWD and FWD.
• As others have mentioned, the BT-01 having steering ball joints both front and rear is a hard-sell as these wear-out fairly quickly.
• The BT-01 design seems too convoluted, similar to the MB-01. Moreover, its non-flat bottom surface seems to be asking for trouble since more debris/rocks/edges can catch and hit the car from underneath.
• Cost. It's very likely you can get a significantly better TT-02R kit + body (even a Supra body) for similar cost as a BT-01 kit.

I personally would have preferred Tamiya had made TT-02 kits with included FWD and RWD conversion parts. Very minimal needed: just a plug for the non-driven diff (to prevent debris from getting in once the prop-shaft is removed) and perhaps a dedicated weighted bumper for the FWD. The one-way diff could be optional for 4WD braking (hop-up or included).

[Honza 1180]

2 hours ago, OoALEJOoO said:

The TT-01E/2 can be converted to RWD or FWD and, given their origins as a 4WD car, you can add a flipped one-way on the non-driven wheels to achieve 4WD braking on both RWD or FWD conversions.

Converted 4wd won't be as good as purpose built 2wd (been there, done that). Converted 4WD needs a lot of ballast, especially in FWD form. BT-01 seems to have good weight distribution with all heavy components being in between center of the chassis and driven axle.

IMO once there's power transmitted to other axle, it's not a 2WD anymore. Doesn't matter if the power is not applied when driven forward. However this:

2 hours ago, OoALEJOoO said:

Another option for RWD/FWD TT-01E/2 is to keep the differential on their non-driven axles. This is a massive advantage that opens up significant tweaking possibilities without the need of any hop-ups

Is a different story. And MB-01/BT-01 actually allows putting a spool/diff into non-driven end. In theory, there might be enough space to built an inboard brake mechanism. I have even seen MB-01 converted to 4wd. However, that creates issue with battery, which is in the way of driveshaft.

2 hours ago, OoALEJOoO said:

• something you can see Tamiya anticipates it's needed judging by one of the BT-01 pictures).

This is a picture of MB-01 used for comparison to BT-01. It has different tires because of Abarth body that uses 55D on front and 60D on rear.

 

[OoALEJOoO 3334]

3 hours ago, Honza said:

Converted 4wd won't be as good as purpose built 2wd (been there, done that). Converted 4WD needs a lot of ballast, especially in FWD form. BT-01 seems to have good weight distribution with all heavy components being in between center of the chassis and driven axle.

IMO once there's power transmitted to other axle, it's not a 2WD anymore. Doesn't matter if the power is not applied when driven forward. However this:

Is a different story. And MB-01/BT-01 actually allows putting a spool/diff into non-driven end. In theory, there might be enough space to built an inboard brake mechanism. I have even seen MB-01 converted to 4wd. However, that creates issue with battery, which is in the way of driveshaft.

This is a picture of MB-01 used for comparison to BT-01. It has different tires because of Abarth body that uses 55D on front and 60D on rear.

 

Well, I've also been there, done that, and from my perspective a RWD BT-01 doesn't look differently balanced than a RWD TT-01/2. My RWD TT-01/2's drive like a dream, either with a stiff front diff or flipped one-way, without any ballast. In fact, they drive much better than a M-06 and not far off from a F104 and Group C cars. Without tunable front diff, I doubt a RWD BT-01 would drive/feel better. On FWD mode, it seems a bit more forward balanced than a FWD TT-01/2, but likely not sufficiently (certainly not like an FF-03 or even XV-01), thus my earlier comment that it would still need added weight.

You are right, the picture is from a MB-01, I didn't realize that! Question, are the MB-01 stock tires of equal compound? I understand front is 55D and rear 60D, but what about their rubber? The rears on the pic resemble the S-grip tires included on M-06 kits, is this right?

I'm not trying to be a hater  I love Tamiya  !!

[Honza 1180]

1 hour ago, OoALEJOoO said:

Well, I've also been there, done that, and from my perspective a RWD BT-01 doesn't look differently balanced than a RWD TT-01/2. My RWD TT-01/2's drive like a dream, either with a stiff front diff or flipped one-way, without any ballast. In fact, they drive much better than a M-06 and not far off from a F104 and Group C cars. Without tunable front diff, I doubt a RWD BT-01 would drive/feel better. On FWD mode, it seems a bit more forward balanced than a FWD TT-01/2, but likely not sufficiently (certainly not like an FF-03 or even XV-01), thus my earlier comment that it would still need added weight.

You are right, the picture is from a MB-01, I didn't realize that! Question, are the MB-01 stock tires of equal compound? I understand front is 55D and rear 60D, but what about their rubber? The rears on the pic resemble the S-grip tires included on M-06 kits, is this right?

I'm not trying to be a hater  I love Tamiya  !!

I was experimenting with RWD for a while and found that 60-65% of weight on the rear axle is the sweet spot - BT-01 could be quite close to that, so it could work. It'll be definitely better than MB-01. I think that major disadvantage will be the symmetrical suspension, that'll require some tweaking around dampers.

For FWD, yes, I can see a ballast weight still being necessary, but less than TT-02 or even older M-chassis. With high grip tires, it might not be even needed. The bigger issue is lack of a better differential. Open diff is not ideal. Atleast there's an option for sealed gear diff, that wasn't the case of M-05

The Abarth uses standard radial tires on both ends. Cannot comment on M-06, but M-chassis is hard to compare with standard TC.

I'm not saying it's a great car - it is not - but I see the potential. Hopefully we will se a better specced variant for acceptable price.

[Kowalski86 4435]

10 minutes ago, Honza said:

I was experimenting with RWD for a while and found that 60-65% of weight on the rear axle is the sweet spot - BT-01 could be quite close to that, so it could work. It'll be definitely better than MB-01.

The Abarth uses standard radial tires on both ends. Cannot comment on M-06, but M-chassis is hard to compare with standard TC.

I haven't done any scientific tests, but the MB01 always felt too light in the back for me whenever I drove it. It spins out easy on M-grips m.

M06 kits all run S-Grip in the back, M-grip up front. Definitely a better driver than the MB-01.

[Kowalski86 4435]

Since the TB-01 isn't out yet, I'll have to use my MB-01 as a stand in. Stock TT02D with giant dogbones vs RWD MB01, those who value "good" wiring jobs please look away!