Somebody explain this to me...

[Kowalski86 4274]

https://www.rcscrapyard.net/tamiya-xb-super-levant-57796.htm

So, many moons ago, before 4wd brushless rtr "truggy" bashers became so common place, Tamiya made this thing.

Anytime that I see it I have to ask myself "What made them build something like this?", it just seems so out of place for Tamiya.

[Saito2 7654]

There's been several times Tamiya actually chased after a growing fad or market segment like the Levant trucks. T-Maxx competitors like the Terra Crusher and TNX are other examples. These types of vehicles seem to fade away into history. I'm not so sure their "failure" (from a longevity standpoint, I have no idea what Tamiya's sales numbers are) is based of the product quality or misreading the market, rather Tamiya might misread its place in the market at times. Other than Tamiya die-hards like us, most folks don't look to or consider Tamiya for these type of vehicles.

[moffman 6024]

Yeah tamiya is a bit of a strange entity when it comes to the way they produce their rc vehicles  when I was nitro 1/8th buggy racing tamiya produced the NDF-01 chassis of buggies (nitro thunder, force, blaster) and I did buy one and it was a very capable buggy which the chassis was very planted and the engine although very small was brilliantly quick because the whole buggy was very light but it has the usual tamiya quirks! Which most odd it was 1/10th which at the time every manufacturer was producing 1/8th! Even back then I thought 1/10 and everything plastic why?. I took it on my local club track just to see what it was like and it didn’t get past the first jump and the rear shock tower snapped and exhaust pipe split and shredded it’s spur gear but it was an absolute blast in car parks or a bit of loose ground! And then the ndf-01 chassis buggies just faded away

[Kpowell911 2245]

1 hour ago, Kowalski86 said:

https://www.rcscrapyard.net/tamiya-xb-super-levant-57796.htm

So, many moons ago, before 4wd brushless rtr "truggy" bashers became so common place, Tamiya made this thing.

Anytime that I see it I have to ask myself "What made them build something like this?", it just seems so out of place for Tamiya.

IMO, theyre going to have to get with the times and do a ‘bashing RTR’ if theyre too survive the next decade. Either that or I am massively underestimating the Japanese market

[Big Jon 686]

1 hour ago, Kpowell911 said:

IMO, theyre going to have to get with the times and do a ‘bashing RTR’ if theyre too survive the next decade. Either that or I am massively underestimating the Japanese market

I think that Tamiya has found their niche with the types of kits they’ve been doing for the past 40 years. I can buy all manner of generic overpowered RC vehicles from just about any online source at rock bottom prices, and they’re all pretty much the same, or I can buy an interesting kit with unique design elements from Tamiya. 
 

Why would Tamiya bother with attempting to enter a crowded price-driven market that doesn’t have anything to do with their strengths?

[markbt73 5850]

I'm pretty sure I've written this post before, but...

Tamiya, being a privately-owned company with a huge business outside of RC, is in a unique position: they have the financial luxury to "throw things at the wall to see what sticks." Sometimes that means chasing trends; sometimes it means a six-wheeled monster school bus, or a tractor driven by a teddy bear. The scale model business seems to be successful enough to let them absorb a few flops here and there. They don't really seem to understand the RTR/basher market, so when they try to compete in that arena, the results are often laughable.

But when you look at the segments of the hobby where they have been successful, they're seen as pioneers. Think of how many vehicle categories Tamiya either invented or popularized: entry-level buggies, monster trucks, touring cars, scale 4x4 trucks. All of Tamiya's early efforts in these areas were fun, simple, and charming. Other manufacturers quickly noticed what they were doing and brought out their own competitors, and they were nearly always "better," but they lost that charm. Tamiya's re-releases are so wildly successful not only because of nostalgia, but because even after all these years, there's simply nothing else like them.

Any venture capitalist with connections in China can have some company whip up a "basher" RC vehicle. Ebay and Amazon are littered with them. It takes no effort, no imagination, and no love for the hobby to undercut Traxxas and Horizon with some hideous blob on oversized wheels based on blatant IP theft, and take the money and run. And when the basher craze dies out (which it will, there's only so many times you can break parts at a skatepark before it gets boring), those companies or others like them will be off chasing the next trend - and still not understanding, or caring about, the hobby.

Will Tamiya's RC business last forever? Who knows? But think of all the companies that have come and gone, or been bought and sold, in the nearly fifty years they've been at it. I think they're doing great, and I think they'll be fine.

And if not, there's always going to be someone who wants 1/35 scale plastic barnyard animals.

[Kpowell911 2245]

1 hour ago, Big Jon said:

I think that Tamiya has found their niche with the types of kits they’ve been doing for the past 40 years. I can buy all manner of generic overpowered RC vehicles from just about any online source at rock bottom prices, and they’re all pretty much the same, or I can buy an interesting kit with unique design elements from Tamiya. 
 

Why would Tamiya bother with attempting to enter a crowded price-driven market that doesn’t have anything to do with their strengths?

How old are you out of curiosity? And how long have you been in the hobby?

[GToddC5 2023]

3 hours ago, markbt73 said:

I'm pretty sure I've written this post before, but...

Tamiya, being a privately-owned company with a huge business outside of RC, is in a unique position: they have the financial luxury to "throw things at the wall to see what sticks." Sometimes that means chasing trends; sometimes it means a six-wheeled monster school bus, or a tractor driven by a teddy bear. . .

This had me rolling, thanks!

[Big Jon 686]

1 hour ago, Kpowell911 said:

How old are you out of curiosity? And how long have you been in the hobby?

48, and I’ve been in the hobby since ‘84 or ‘85.

[Kowalski86 4274]

On 1/27/2024 at 7:22 AM, Saito2 said:

Other than Tamiya die-hards like us, most folks don't look to or consider Tamiya for these type of vehicles.

That sounds about right, Tamiya wanted to test the "basher" market, only to learn that there isnt much crossover with their main audience. And I can't imagine anyone in Japan being interested in a 60mph+ basher.

On 1/27/2024 at 9:58 AM, markbt73 said:

Any venture capitalist with connections in China can have some company whip up a "basher" RC vehicle. Ebay and Amazon are littered with them.

During my last trip to the hobby shop I saw something called an HPI "Blackzon", turns out that Redcat sells the same thing, both being the same re-badged Chinese "basher" (I forget if it was a Haiboxing or Hosim). All of these crazy, big wheeled trucks make me wish that someone would make a hobby-grade Tyco Rebound.

On 1/27/2024 at 9:56 AM, Big Jon said:

Why would Tamiya bother with attempting to enter a crowded price-driven market that doesn’t have anything to do with their strengths?

More like, they've already tried to enter the RTR basher market and it didn't work, so why bother?

[Kpowell911 2245]

14 hours ago, Big Jon said:

48, and I’ve been in the hobby since ‘84 or ‘85.

Exactly, so like me, Tamiya’s in your blood. Youll buy whatever they do, and yearn for the older stuff.

If you’re entering the hobby now as a kid, are you going to go for 15mph kit you have to build up and paint, or a 30mph+ RTR? The worlds changed. We live in a TikTok/Fast Paced world. Kids today dont want to paint a bodyshell. On top of this, these Chinese RCs coming through are now actually pretty good, and cheaper than a Tamiya. I just cant see enough people entering the Hobby via a Tamiya anymore

[Kowalski86 4274]

5 hours ago, Kpowell911 said:

On top of this, these Chinese RCs coming through are now actually pretty good, and cheaper than a Tamiya.

I just cant see enough people entering the Hobby via a Tamiya anymore

The real kicker is that some of them are more "scale" too. You can buy this as a kit with all upgrades (including bearings!) from the get-go for $60, and it doesn't need to be painted...nor does it need 100 stickers.

If Tamiya tackled a Suzuki Kei truck it'd probably be a lexan box with giant mold lines (see CC-01 Unimog), and on the MB-01.

As far as "entering the hobby", my worry is people who might try to get into the hobby through Tamiya, only to get burned out. They have far too many recent models that need some magic hop-up to fix an annoying issue.

[Big Jon 686]

You’re both right - Tamiya has consistently flopped with RTRs, at least in the States (not sure elsewhere), the Chinese stuff has gotten a lot better, and young folks aren’t terribly interested in building a slow car when they can grab an Arrma for less. 
 

My collection covers a pretty wide swath of categories, from scale crawlers to now-outdated race cars. They’re all fairly interesting models, though, and it’s the interesting bits that keep me engaged in the hobby for all these years. If all we had available was high speed skatepark bashers, I would have found something else to do a long time ago.

[markbt73 5850]

Once again: RC models aren't really what Tamiya does. Not primarily. I'm sure the RC business earns them a good chunk of money, but since the beginning, their forte has been excellent-quality scale models that are also designed to be easy to build. If you only know Tamiya from RC, and only judge them based on TT-this and DF-that, you don't know the company at all.

Take, for example, this 1/24 scale Fiat Abarth 695SS. It's a mid-level kit in their 1/24 scale car series, with more detail than some, but less than the ones where they really go all-out. Yet the finish and quality of the parts trees is excellent, I'm sure the parts fit is precise (I haven't built an example of this kit before, but I've built plenty of their other 1/24 cars), and you know those amazing instruction manuals we all love so much? They do one of those for every single static kit they make, as well. And they sell zillions of them.

It even includes metal emblems, which I'll need a magnifying glass to apply, when I get around to building this one. Standard RC box wrench for size reference.

So no, I couldn't care less if their RC offerings are "slow" or "fragile," or if some Chinese sweatshop can crank out a million RTR toys (yes, I know this makes some of you upset, but opening boxes isn't a hobby, so nothing RTR is hobby-grade) with mediocre detail. I know what Tamiya is really capable of. In fact, if I have a complaint about Tamiya's RC lineup, it's that they aren't all more like the Bruiser or the Sand Scorcher: "Scale models suitable for radio control." I wish they'd banish Lexan from their lineup altogether. Or at least stop trying to replicate window trims and grilles with stickers. I want to see them crank the scale-modeling machine up to 11 and give us something like an old Pocher model, only radio-controlled. I wouldn't care if it cost a thousand dollars and went ten miles an hour - if it's excellent, it's worth it.

Seriously, if you've never built one of their static kits, do. It's a treat, especially if you're used to low-quality AMT/MPC/Monogram kits, or super-fussy Fujimi or Hasegawa kits.

Or don't. I don't care. I've got enough stuff to keep me busy for probably the rest of my life already, so I don't have to care about "the industry" at all if I don't want. I just find it frustrating how often I hear people on a forum dedicated to a brand complaining about how that brand does things, when they barely know what that brand does at all.

 

[Kowalski86 4274]

23 hours ago, markbt73 said:

Seriously, if you've never built one of their static kits, do. It's a treat, especially if you're used to low-quality AMT/MPC/Monogram kits, or super-fussy Fujimi or Hasegawa kits.

I'm very aware of their static models, in fact I often reccomend them as alternatives to building RC "shelf-queens", due to them being much more detailed, cheaper, etc.

[urban warrior 493]

Wow, how did I miss this thread? Interesting discussion!

Some wrote about "Tamiya chasing trends", what made me think about my "own observations" through my modelling career. The TXT-1 and the CR-01 were in my eyes attempts of Tamiya, to keep up with a development or maybe get their share, where a lot of other modellers and even small aftermarket companies (and bigger companies too) already broke new grounds with trends. For me personally it was a bit disturbing, that a company who had done quite a lot of pioneer work, was trying to follow others trends. And sometimes not very successfully. I read here about other attempts by Tamiya to cope with the development at the market, what seems to make this strange effect larger than I thought.

I came to Tamiya through 1/35 static military modelling, after a long time building models of Airfix, Revell, Monogram, Heller and others. And it took me quite long until I discovered RC, I was 21 and the OG Bruiser hat appeared in the catalogues, which became my first RC in 1986 or 1987. So it took me quite a long time to get a glimpse of the RC "ethics" at Tamiya.

You may be right when you say, that you cannot copy or replace the charm of Tamiya kits, but I guess the vast majority of people running RCs aren't so emphatetic to care about that. Performance per buck is what makes 90% of the people tick, I believe.

Nonetheless I am enjoying some "deja vu" with a recently bought Midnight Pumpkin and Clod Buster ... heading down memory lane ... back to the late eighties! Trying to make everything right what I made wrong in the past.

Cheers

Martin

[Gebbly 799]

In answer to @Kowalski86's original question I would guess that the decision makers in Tamiya saw the potential for a market segment and dipped their toes to see if it was viable. I quite like that Tamiya has a fairly stable financial base which allows them to sometimes try different things. I think if a company can its a good idea to sometimes try something new....like their motorized amphibious duck  It shows that the people in the company keep an eye on other markets.

Regarding getting younger people into the hobby I guess it depends what it is each person wants. If someone decides they want to try driving RC cars and want to whizz them round the local club race track with their mates then maybe Tamiya arent always the best choice. But there are other reasons to get into Tamiya RC specifically.

There is still a huge market for static model kits for young and old, there is the model train set hobby, the science kits for children, the educational building sets and of course the massive market for building blocks led by Lego. I think for children that are into hobbies like these who enjoy the building and creating it is more of a natural progression to try a kit which when completed actually moves or makes noise or lights up.

Since childhood I have always enjoyed Lego, Mecano, static models. I moved from static Lego to their "Technic" range because once the construction was complete things could lift/dig/move I could learn basic mechanical principles. There were even battery powered elements. So for me, when I heard about RC vehicles the first thing that came to mind was, I want to build one myself.

When it comes to RC vehicles, this is what Tamiya are great at. Providing kits for young and old to build and perhaps to learn some things about mechanical principles, basic soldering, electronics, suspension, motors thru driveshafts to wheels, how a limited slip diff works. The driving of the vehicle at the end is fun but it is only a part of the whole experience of a Tamiya RC kit.

I think the static modelling kits and Lego markets are going strong and as an off shoot I think Tamiya will continue to benefit from new customers from those hobbies trying out Tamiya RC. Especially since Tamiya offer some really nice quality static model kits with lots of detail and offer them in the same catalogues as some of their RC kits. I dont think that is by accident.

[urban warrior 493]

1 hour ago, Gebbly said:

I quite like that Tamiya has a fairly stable financial base which allows them to sometimes try different things.

Sounds a bit like Honda Motorcycles: A stable financial basis and from time to time releasing such weird things like the PC800 "Pacific Coast", CN250 "Helix"/"Fusion" or the NM4 "Vultura". Don't ask me from where I know ... at least the first two.

[Gebbly 799]

41 minutes ago, urban warrior said:

the NM4 "Vultura"

The NM4 Vultus looks kinda cool.

[Saito2 7654]

3 hours ago, urban warrior said:

The TXT-1 and the CR-01 were in my eyes attempts of Tamiya, to keep up with a development or maybe get their share, where a lot of other modellers and even small aftermarket companies (and bigger companies too) already broke new grounds with trends.

The TXT-1 story is an odd one. Its development starts with the failed Juggernaut trucks. Even if the Juggernaut name wasn't tainted by the defective drivetrain fiasco, the concept of a leaf sprung truck introduced in 1999, emulating 1:1 monsters from the mid/late 80's was actually mis-reading the market. It wasn't until Tamiya saw Kevin Hetmanski's truck based around the Jugg2 drivetrain that they went that direction. Hetmanski's truck he came up with is very close to the production TXT-1. Tamiya actually took it to Japan to model the production version after. There's a cool Youtube video on its history.

The CR01 seemed very much like Tamiya was "getting in" on the crawler action in the market. Of course, only Tamiya could come up with something as interesting as the CR01, a crawler attempt for sure, but filtered through their own unique design-lens.

[urban warrior 493]

5 minutes ago, Saito2 said:

The TXT-1 story is an odd one. Its development starts with the failed Juggernaut trucks. Even if the Juggernaut name wasn't tainted by the defective drivetrain fiasco, the concept of a leaf sprung truck introduced in 1999, emulating 1:1 monsters from the mid/late 80's was actually mis-reading the market. It wasn't until Tamiya saw Kevin Hetmanski's truck based around the Jugg2 drivetrain that they went that direction. Hetmanski's truck he came up with is very close to the production TXT-1. Tamiya actually took it to Japan to model the production version after. There's a cool Youtube video on its history.

Thank you for this input. I think I have to look this up. I personally found the Juggernaut axles quite cool (Think it still today!). I had the Jugg 2, but ran it only a short time, before the "Mutant-Monster-Craze" at RC-Monstertrucks.com kicked in.

 

5 minutes ago, Saito2 said:

The CR01 seemed very much like Tamiya was "getting in" on the crawler action in the market. Of course, only Tamiya could come up with something as interesting as the CR01, a crawler attempt for sure, but filtered through their own unique design-lens.

From the aspect of tinkering I believe that the CR-01 chassis maybe quite interesting. But in comparison to the quite contemporary Axial AX10 Scorpion it was way to sophisticated and in my eyes quite clumsy in appearance. The AX10 chassis was sleek and reduced to the essentials. I don't know how a CR-01 is driving, though I would surely try one out.

"Crawler" has become some sort of a bad word for me ... everything is called crawler today when it has 4x4 and at least 1.9" tires. This terminus is used so inflationary that it is ridiculous! It is quite interesting that we seem to have two waves of "Crawling Eras". One in the early 2000's (around 2005-2007 I guess) and one in the last 4-5 years.

 

 

[aphex4000 5]

That Super Levant reminds me of another oddball kit from Tamiya, the Vajra (58497). The two were only released a couple years apart and seem to offer entry level and high-end options just like the Vanquish and Avante did.

[svenb 4240]

52 minutes ago, aphex4000 said:

That Super Levant reminds me of another oddball kit from Tamiya, the Vajra (58497). The two were only released a couple years apart and seem to offer entry level and high-end options just like the Vanquish and Avante did.

The Super Levant had the odd ball 8T motor too

[GToddC5 2023]

On 2/23/2024 at 5:42 AM, urban warrior said:

Sounds a bit like Honda Motorcycles: A stable financial basis and from time to time releasing such weird things like the PC800 "Pacific Coast", CN250 "Helix"/"Fusion" or the NM4 "Vultura". Don't ask me from where I know ... at least the first two.

My favorite departure from reason was the Rune!

[Juggular 5088]

On 1/27/2024 at 8:22 AM, Saito2 said:

There's been several times Tamiya actually chased after a growing fad or market segment like the Levant trucks. T-Maxx competitors like the Terra Crusher

I fell for that.  Mechanically, Terra Crusher was very well designed.  2 speed + clever REVERSE transmission on a 2 channel nitro chassis!  (I still think Tamiya should have kept the reversing nitros. It was a bit finicky to adjust throttle/brake/reverse on 1 channel, but nothing some patience couldn't handle).  

Sadly, Tamiya executives probably didn't listen to the engineers. About half the weight on this massive truck (5.7kg = 13 pounds) was from the tires.  My thoughts were exactly; "What made them do it like this?"  You can't expect it to perform well, when 4 tires weigh close to two Wild Willy chassis (two Terra tires are in the background).  

I put on much lighter HPI tires, and it flew.  And Tamiya issued several chassis after this (TNX, TNX 3.0, TNX 5.2R, etc. None mounting heavy tires and I don't think they reverse).  

I was prepared to mount a more powerful engine. But it wasn't necessary. 

I felt for Juggernaut 1 also. (Below has a Juggular upgrade.) 

And how the gear crumbled.  I jumped into the hobby only a year earlier, and I didn't know about this problem.  After some back and forth, Tamiya America sent me a free upgrade kit to Jugg 2, which has a lower gear ratio.  (If they hadn't, I might not be a Tamiya fan today and saved lots of money.)

But from the ashes of Juggernaut's gears rose TXT-1.  It was a very popular monster truck of its own class. (below is a random photo from google.) 

So Tamiya's experiments don't always end in failures. 

They seem to learn from their mistakes and do better next time.  Like how they are making a brand-new-vintage buggy like BBX.   Tamiya's suspension setting used to be rock-hard.  It seems like Tamiya became less afraid to get the chassis scraped now.  I think that's a good thing too. 

Sometimes they mess up, sometimes they get silly. But I like Tamiya experimenting. 

(a random pic above)