Jump to content
TurnipJF

Endurance Racing by post - the track is scaled up, the results form is ready, let's race!

Recommended Posts

With the recent re-release of the Mercedes C11 and the resulting builds thereof, the idea of some sort of postal endurance racing seems to be the logical next step, giving us the opportunity to test our cars' mettle without the possibility of cars colliding with each other and spoiling those carefully finished and hard-to-replace bodyshells. But how shall we do it? Here are some ideas, and I welcome input from others.

 

Race length:

Obviously for an endurance race, we want something a bit longer than the 5-minute stints of the monthly Postal Races, but how long is long enough? 30 mins is do-able with most modern batteries, but not everyone runs modern batteries. We could go even longer, and scale the 24 hours of a full-size endurance race to a 1/10 2.4 hour event, making battery management and pit stops a requirement for almost everyone, or we could make the race shorter. Would 15 mins perhaps be manageable with older battery tech?

 

Pit stops:

Part of endurance racing is managing pit stop strategy, and it might be fun to replicate this in miniature. Maybe make a given number of pit stops mandatory, during which the battery needs to be changed, or at least taken out and put back in again, whether necessary or not? That way, those with several smaller batteries can compete on an equal footing with those who have fewer or even just one bigger battery. Worth it, or too much hassle?

 

Classes:

As with full-size endurance races, I was thinking that it might be fun to open it up to 3 classes. That way, the event can be enjoyed by more than just the select few who have built or acquired Group Cs. I was thinking that the Group Cs could be one class, along with F103GT and LMP-bodied F10# endurance racers as a second class, and then a GT3 class of normal touring car chassis wearing appropriate GT3 bodyshells. A lot of members have at least one of those, and if you are lucky enough to have more than one, you can enter multiple classes, but each one only once.

 

Track:

A longer track than the standard Postal Racing ones would be more in character I think, but how long should that be? What sort of areas do prospective participants have available?

 

Other things such as lap counting, results submission and so forth could be done along the same lines as the monthly Postal Races, unless there are any better suggestions?

Any other ideas or proposals that y'all may have?

  • Like 4
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Unfortunately I do not have good place to try "Racing by Post", but really like idea. In that case, I have few comments.

1. 30 minutes sounds fine. 2.5h in my opinion is just much too long. Many things can happen during this time. Not everyone can run cars in totally closed area, so it would be shame to not finish race, because someone decided to park car on race track or kids started to play around.

2. Pit Stops: I can swap battery in TT-02 in 20 seconds and probably need 2 minutes to do the same in XV-01. I know that it is part of the challenge, but maybe it would be fair to force e.g. 2 minutes Pit Stops. You can stop for longer, but it has to be at least 2 minutes to change packs, drink etc.

 

  • Like 2
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

HI @TurnipJF I considered writing this post but was too afraid of stepping on Postal Racing's toes - I am glad you wrote this! In fact, in an attempt to entertain myself I considered appending some "endurance" driving impressions to my build thread.

Here are just some thoughts from a very casual driver:

Race Length:

With lipo technology already decades old and enabling cars to run well above an hour I think 30min race time would be a nice wink at the old days, when race time had to be limited because the poor electric cars just couldn't manage more than a few minutes out of their 1200mah NiCd. On the Group C - for example - the kit-supplied Sport Tuned motor consumes less than 300mah per 5min of Postal style driving. Bashing aimlessly at full throttle would certainly use more, ditto if the track were just made of long straight and giant sweepers rather than technical 'in-field' kind of layout. That means that a 20$ shorty pack would yield at least an hour of runtime. Without getting into the details, I never received the round lipo I ordered over 2 months ago so I have been using my regular 4600mah shorty; it drops directly into the square portion of the battery compartment! A nice surprise, but it requires undoing 4 screws. Not a huge deal, and thumb nuts are on the way. So I just want to make sure we are not refraining from doing a 30min race length if everybody is on-board with lipo's. Also we could always have that mandatory 2min stop suggested by @skom25, I would say "to be chosen at any time during the 30min race" which would add to the fun.

Pit Stops:

While we are talking about stops, I was initially going to propose a stop not for battery change (which didn't even occur to me :D) but to rotate tires as that would greatly extend the life and improve the wear pattern of foam tires, while at the same time conveying the spirit of 1:1 pit stops which is super fun. We can make it a fixed mandatory time as well if we want to make things easier and take out the competitive aspect of rushing through pit stops. Either way seems fun.

Classes:

Perhaps we could start off with a single class for the first round and later on further diversify depending on how many people manage to enter?

Track:

It all comes down to how much room people have and we should be careful not to have people miss out because they do not have enough space. At the same time, when the 5mx8m of Postal Racing suits the M chassis and AWD retro buggies like a glove B) cars like the Group C, even with the kit motor, do feel like a lion in a (small) cage on Postal Tracks! I am lucky to have access to full size basketball courses so I have little space limitation to complain about - others can voice their space restrictions. If people are able to go bigger, then a simple solution would be to start with the current month's Postal Track and multiply all coordinates by 1.5, making it fit a 7.5mx12m space.

Other Rules:

As for the other rules such as "enter as many times as you wish", I actually thought that we already have that with Postal Racing, and it doesn't even work too well for Mr. Tired Father of Three ;) but for some reason I got excited about the idea of preparing the car, doing a few test runs to fine tune the setup, measure current consumption, pick the right track location etc and then as a single "happening" for each month, enter the endurance race once. Then it gives something unusual to look forward to every month etc. We cold also increase race time if everybody is on-board.

All the above is just some thinking out loud! I am happy with anything the greater number of merry drivers want to do!

 

  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hmm how sad that I recently got a 256mm conversion for the Carten M210R and ordered a BMW 2002 Turbo body yesterday....

 

I am all in, if I am allowed to run the Carten and/or the M-08. For the latter I will gonna have to wait for Racers Paradise to get the Porsche 914/6 back in stock. If I have to run a racer body I can make onother body for the Carten in Martini or Gulf livery. It's all about wether I want to do a lot of stickering or a lot of masking;). The stickers are at hand already. 

 

I often thought about how nice it would be to let the cars stretch out on a larger circuit. I have access to the space. The limitation for now is all the winter debries, that is not good for the open driveline of the Carten. I now have loads of pinions for it and the smaller steel spur, so this will be nice. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I disagree with enforced pit stops as runtime can very well be part of the strategy. Do you run it with a light weight soft pack with a low turn motor that requires frequent battery change? Or do you run it with a 8000mah with a 35T so that you do not need to change battery at all?

Another thing is, do you swap out your body posts for magnetic mounts to make battery changes faster?

Things like these matters for an endurance race and are part of the overall strategy.

Just my two pence.

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

About pit stops: At such a long runtime it would at least be an advantage to swap the wheels. I mean swap the direction. Not a new set of tyres,  even if that would be true to the 1:1 world. At the temps we had last summer the tyres would be ready for the bin after one run. I do not dare to think how bad this would be in Pylon80-land^_^.

  • Haha 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Andreas W said:

I do not dare to think how bad this would be in Pylon80-land^_^.

It would be moot since the infamous Shimizu's never arrived (but I got a refund...). With foam tires I suggested rotating tires for that reason. I think 1:1 F1 has mandatory stops at some point? Not really following it anymore 🫣

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Pylon80 said:

It would be moot since the infamous Shimizu's never arrived (but I got a refund...). With foam tires I suggested rotating tires for that reason. I think 1:1 F1 has mandatory stops at some point? Not really following it anymore 🫣

Currently F1 requires the use of two different tire compounds during a race so by default a pit stop is required.

I have been thinking about the possibility of pit stops for our current discussion. I kind of like the idea of a mandatory stop of some determined length. Even if a driver didn't need to perform any maintenance to the car it would allow for a breather. I think the stop would need to take place at any time mid race but neither at the start or finish. Just thinking out loud like everyone else.

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 3/19/2024 at 6:42 AM, Andreas W said:

I do not dare to think how bad this would be in Pylon80-land^_^.

I can tell you from personal experience that it's too hot to sit down on even at 10:30 at night. 

I do not have the attention span to measure out a track so I don't have a dog in the fight but I will be following as I do the other postal race. It's a fun read. 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So, to summarise: we are thinking 30 minutes race time, with one mandatory pit stop to be taken when you see fit, of no less than 2 minutes duration during which you can change batteries or rotate tyres if you wish, on a track that is 1.5 times the size of a regular Postal circuit?

Or do we make the pit stop optional and thus part of the strategy?

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As I see it we should have a mandatory pit stop. This is true to the original in the 1:1 world. Also for those still running NiHm it's nice to swap battery. Anyway it is a good thing to rotate the wheels. 

 

After 6 stints in a row of normal postal racing my head is pretty good cooked. That is with some time between each stint, so 30 mins of intense consentration will be pretty exhausting without a break to have a mouthfull of water.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, Andreas W said:

After 6 stints in a row of normal postal racing my head is pretty good cooked. That is with some time between each stint, so 30 mins of intense consentration will be pretty exhausting without a break to have a mouthfull of water.

I think that's all the fun of endurance racing. I would expect the overall pace to be somewhat slower than for 5 min. Also there's no temptation to "reset" and throw the stint out if you make a stupid mistake; the race is still "on".

@TurnipJF this sounds like fun for a first attempt!

 

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, Andreas W said:

As I see it we should have a mandatory pit stop. This is true to the original in the 1:1 world. Also for those still running NiHm it's nice to swap battery. Anyway it is a good thing to rotate the wheels. 

I'd suggest you also need to mandate the stop to be not before 10 mins and not after 20 mins. Else you'll get someone start on the buzzer and just lap for 28 mins...

 

I've raced motorbikes (and mopeds) in endurance racing and just motorbikes in sprint (5-10 lap) races. The rule book for the endurance races is always significantly larger than for the sprints...

Think of it as a duty of care thing, it'll reduce the chance of one of us not taking a quick break for a drink and breeeeaathhh... and then driving a shiny new car into a brick wall at full pelt. 

 

Edit: I'll say this now as a very strongly recommended piece of advice. If you're just counting in your head the number of laps you do; At the pit stop, write down how many laps you've just done. Or else I promise you, you will forget how many before you restart.

Obviously if you've got some kind of timing beam counting thing going on then you'll be fine but otherwise...

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 3/20/2024 at 11:32 PM, TurnipJF said:

So, to summarise: we are thinking 30 minutes race time, with one mandatory pit stop to be taken when you see fit, of no less than 2 minutes duration during which you can change batteries or rotate tyres if you wish, on a track that is 1.5 times the size of a regular Postal circuit?

With the end of the month coming, a new Postal Racing round will begin shortly. Shall we kick off the Endurance Racing by Post at the same time?

@wtcc5 I would be excited to enter the Jaguar alongside your C11!

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21 hours ago, Pylon80 said:

With the end of the month coming, a new Postal Racing round will begin shortly. Shall we kick off the Endurance Racing by Post at the same time?

 Yes, let's give it a go. Any track suggestions?

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, TurnipJF said:

 Yes, let's give it a go. Any track suggestions?

I guess Le Mans fits as a first run.

I’ve not found a space yet that’s suitable but there’s got to be somewhere…

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, TurnipJF said:

 Yes, let's give it a go. Any track suggestions?

As suggested earlier I think it's a good idea to use a scaled up version of the current Racing by post course. Pylon80 suggested to multiply all measures by 1,5. So when the map for the "normal " round is official it's simple to make the scaled up one. 

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Looking forward to "Anderstorp x 1.5", the 1:1 track looks like a perfect candidate for RC use in Google maps B)

My goal for April is to enter the Jaguar. It will need some work to balance the motor pod laterally, a motor fan, a diff rebuild and some tidying up of the battery compartment and front body posts (kit ones are just 1mm too short). I doubt a full battery charge will be needed for only 28min of race time but I will give it a full charge for the occasion (I don't think I have done that in years).

Also, I will have no choice to use the lap counting app this time, as there is no way I will have the nerve to count my laps for this long!

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Another Porsche 911 RSR body for the Carten and Porsche 914/6 body ordered and on their way. Until they are painted and stickered the civilized 911 body will have to do (if it's legal to run a non racing team body temporarily).

 

The Carten will for simplicity get a larger pinion. I have got the smaller steel spur for it, but will limit the work to the low effort pinion. I also have got what I think is a complete season of 60D Ride slicks for them all. Now it's time to repair the old phone,  so I have it as a timing gear. I have enough control (on tarmac or astro) to use the current phone for timing, but it's better and less worries to use the old one for all weather purposes.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Here is a link to the results submission form for the endurance racing, based on the one used for the monthly postal races:

https://forms.gle/Pw6Zpnv4guBxZmw18

Feel free to try it out - I'll reset it before racing proper gets underway - and please let me know if you have any issues.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
34 minutes ago, TurnipJF said:

Here is a link to the results submission form for the endurance racing, based on the one used for the monthly postal races:

https://forms.gle/Pw6Zpnv4guBxZmw18

Feel free to try it out - I'll reset it before racing proper gets underway - and please let me know if you have any issues.

I submitted dummy results, just to test it. Looks like it's working fine 😎

  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 3/19/2024 at 5:21 AM, alvinlwh said:

I disagree with enforced pit stops as runtime can very well be part of the strategy. Do you run it with a light weight soft pack with a low turn motor that requires frequent battery change? Or do you run it with a 8000mah with a 35T so that you do not need to change battery at all?

This is what I'd do, run something with a 380 motor or below and whatever battery I can fit in it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
30 minutes ago, Kowalski86 said:

This is what I'd do, run something with a 380 motor or below and whatever battery I can fit in it.

My most voracious car (super stock motor) used 350mah per 5 min of postal racing. My tiny shorty pack is 4600mah. Assuming it's only 90% of what's advertised ;) then it's a 4140mah. Assuming I only use 80% of that to avoid damaging anything, then I have at least 3312mah. That's 47 min of non-stop racing, and a very conservative number! It's probably good for well over an hour in reality. And if you use a normal pack then we're talking closer to an hour and a half. And if you use a brushless motor, much more still. Etc.

So I think the discussion on which lipo pack to use is probably moot.

Those forced to use NiMh however might have to pick the right motor in order to last 14min between battery change. Then again if they use a brushless motor it won't be a concern any more.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

While I agree that optional pit stops could be an interesting aspect of the race from a strategic standpoint, not everyone has the gear to allow them the full choice of potential strategies, and I don't want a situation where the winning strategy is only available to those who can afford it. Smacks a bit of cheque book racing, or whatever its modern equivalent is called. PayPal racing?

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Right, let's give this a go!

Anderstorp is the track for the 5-minute April postal races, so we'll start with the same circuit for our endurance races, but at 1.5 times the size.

This is the track in 5-minute postal racing size:

20240404_152228.jpg

If anyone fancies scaling it up to 1.5 times the size, please do! Not sure when I'll get to doing it myself. 😁

Results submission form is here:

https://forms.gle/Pw6Zpnv4guBxZmw18

Shall we run the round until midnight UTC on 28 April, same as the normal postal racing?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×
×
  • Create New...