Associated RC10 B7D - The Off-Road Distraction

[Pylon80]

A couple of weeks ago I finally woke up to the fact that I was living a stone throw from the track that housed the 2023 IFMAR off-road worlds:

So I went there, rented a truck for 5$ and also got to drive my buddy's 4WD truck. I started jumping small doubles, got hooked. I don't really care too much for trucks in general but I saw modern buggies fly off the jump and realized what a quantum leap in performance the modern buggy had achieved compared to what we had in the late 80's and early 90's when I was driving a Nikko  and a few of my buddies had expensive Tamiya's. After a couple of weeks of reflection I simply bought the latest and greatest 2WD buggy from Associated. It only came out a few months ago and the parts supply should be plentiful for many years to come. It is also designed to crash and cartwheel horribly yet keep going after the marshal flips you rubber side down again; at least this is what I witnessed at the track.

I have had a few high end cars before but not that many. Since this is a Tamiya collector forum and since I am a quite obsessed with Japan and Tamiya myself, it's probably a good idea to talk about the elephant in the room and get it over with:

The Tamiya kits in the same price range as modern racing buggies are decades behind, have a lot of sometimes questionable plastics, still use CVA dampers and require a lot of hop-ups. Modern racing buggy kits are closer to what Tamiya would make today if they still made a TRF buggy, only at a fraction of the price. This kit has top notch reinforced plastics, carbon fiber parts, blue anodized parts, a machined and anodized chassis, huge fluorine coated dampers, a ball diff, a slipper clutch, universals, etc. Racing kits are for racing; the competition between manufacturers is fierce and the prices at the absolute rock bottom for what the cars offer.

Now, having spent a few thousands hopping-up Tamiya kits, I can speak for the joy of modifying and improving a basic kit; the cars I have modified in that way are now invaluable pieces of my RC journey due to the effort and history they represent for me. I know that this buggy will be the polar opposite: it needs no hop-up (as far as I know they don't exist in the Tamiya sense of the term actually), it is more capable out of the box than my driving will ever demand and more importantly once I am done building it will be identical to hundreds of other B7D buggies out there!

So hopefully this thread will be of interest to TC members by showing a completely different side of the hobby that is not often discussed here. I am not a member of RCTech and I can't stand YouTubers  but I am sure there are some much more knowledgeable folks there who have built that buggy in the past 2 or 3 months. Also I am a complete beginner when it comes to off-road and buggies; hints and tips from anyone with a bit of off-road racing experience will be appreciated!

 

 

[RichieRich]

I currently have a B7D sitting here new in box right next to me so I will be following your build. Generally, I would say to build your kit for the track you plan on racing at. Which means, you'll have to check around for tire choice, shock settings and gearing. 

[Man1c M0nk3y]

1 hour ago, Pylon80 said:

The Tamiya kits in the same price range as modern racing buggies are decades behind, have a lot of sometimes questionable plastics, still use CVA dampers and require a lot of hop-ups. Modern racing buggy kits are closer to what Tamiya would make today if they still made a TRF buggy, only at a fraction of the price. This kit has top notch reinforced plastics, carbon fiber parts, blue anodized parts, a machined and anodized chassis, huge fluorine coated dampers, a ball diff, a slipper clutch, universals, etc. Racing kits are for racing; the competition between manufacturers is fierce and the prices at the absolute rock bottom for what the cars offer.

I can echo this sentiment from when I bought my Schumacher Cougar KD a few years back. I just couldn’t believe the difference.  At the time my only experience of Tamiya (and re in general) being a DT-03 and a GF-01 but having spent close to the cost of the KD on the 03 and its hop ups it to me just seemed crazy really how far apart they were even after the upgrades to the DT-03.  

I’ve come to think of the two sides (Tamiya - Schumacher et el) as fun vs serious get the job done. Nothing to base that on other than personal observations/feelings.  

A couple of areas I think Tamiya wins hands down though is bodies and spares.
For me as much as I am indifferent to buggy bodies such as my Schumacher or your Associated for road I hate the nondescript TC’s and the like and would take a MK1 Golf or CRX etc any day. 
Fun vs Serious again maybe and whilst I can’t comment on Associated spares my KD is virtually impossible to get parts for now. 

Edit to add: I do wonder how Tamiya’s TRF TC’s compare to the competition and competitively and is it just a case of them ‘giving up’ in the off road/buggy world  

Sorry if I’ve gone off on a tangent, that comment just rung true to my feelings when buying a race kit. 

Nothing of use to add however(!) I never did take it to a track but I look forward to seeing you build this and it might give me the impetus to finally rebuild the KD and run it. 
I have read and re read your M-05 multiple times whilst getting sorted to build mine so expect this to be equally great. No pressure!
 

 

[bRIBEGuy]

Not a Tamiya... so BORING!

Ha!  JUST KIDDING!  This will be great seeing a build of the "other side". 

You are certainly correct... a nice racing buggy represents surprising value for what you are actually getting.   Yes, it doesn't have much soul, but what aspect of racing machinery does really?  To me, Tamiya (RC car segment of the company) excels in 3 primary spots:

1. Being truly OG... and sticking with that as an integral part of the brand (rere, etc...)
2. Being Quirky and Unique... who else would make something like the TD2/4, the BBX, or the Dancing Rider or off-road tractors?
3. Scale Bodies (specifically rally, on-road, etc...)

I LOVE Tamiya... but there is a LOT of logic in the concept of "the proper tool for the job", and contrary to all the "I'm going to make my DT03/TD2/whatever in to an XRay-beating track machine" threads, a Tamiya is not that tool.  It will be nice to see someone build up a buggy that is actually designed for racing, and where the track is it's true home.

I have often dreamed of building a buggy like this, but the only really suitable track near me is a near 100km round trip, and since it's outdoors, obviously highly seasonal.  Maybe one of these months I'll stop making excuses and head over and put in a few laps, but for now, I'm excited to live vicariously through your build.

[cyclonecap]

I've never actually bought a new tamiya kit for this reason. Once you've owned a race kit its hard to justify the hop up game on a basic model. Best of luck with your racing adventure!

 

 

3 hours ago, Man1c M0nk3y said:

A couple of areas I think Tamiya wins hands down though is bodies and spares.

For me as much as I am indifferent to buggy bodies such as my Schumacher or your Associated for road I hate the nondescript TC’s and the like and would take a MK1 Golf or CRX etc any day. 
Fun vs Serious again maybe and whilst I can’t comment on Associated spares my KD is virtually impossible to get parts for now.

 

Just to let you know, many of the parts the break on the KD can be replaced with parts from the Laydown and LD2 with minimal additional changes. The rear transmission is unique but the 4 corners and front end share most of the parts with the Laydown. If you need any help getting the KD running I'd be happy to help with what parts swap over.

 

[Frog Jumper]

Tamiya = Models you can drive.  Associated = Machines you can race.  I think Kyosho makes the best hybrid of the two ideas???

I like my Tamiya pieces of junk bc they have personality, bad design, crap function, and make me work and tinker and modify, ie "model".

I have no desire to go 100mph and leap over 20ft jumps with a passionless "machine".

But that does look like a cool kit!

Terry

 

[Kowalski86]

Considering that I've owned and often suggest race-grade kits vs throwing money at entry level stuff, this will be interesting for me too.

Coming from mainly Traxxas at the time, once I owned an AE RC10B5 I learned just how often other manufacturers nickel and dime us for "hop-ups".

Once you're done racing, you could always fit an aftermarket bodyshell onto your B7 to give it a bit more "personality".

[Nikko85]

I love that this is a Tamiya forum with plenty of die hard Tamiya fans and when someone posts serious critique of Tamiya we collectively go 'pretty much'.

There is an honest non-partisan heart to this forum that gives me hope. That you can love something and still be honest in it's faults and admit that others might do it better.

Now if only politics were like that.. 😄

[GTodd]

Im thinking about selling my TRF511 to buy an easier to find parts for 4wd version of your car. Following with enthusiasm.

[Jonathon Gillham]

Looking forward to this, I have just rebuilt a B6D, be interesting to see whats changed in 10 years

2 hours ago, GTodd said:

Im thinking about selling my TRF511 to buy an easier to find parts for 4wd version of your car. Following with enthusiasm.

Or, keep the TRF511 for the shelf and buy something else. Its funny, when I've retired race kits like the Kyosho ZX6 or RB6.6 I sold them as I had no attachment to them. When I got new onroad racers when my garage flooded I kept the TA07 which was replaced with a Yokomo BD11 because the TA07 is just so cool, and looks great on the shelf.

[ADRay1000]

Looks like fun. I could get over how unattractive I think the modern RC10s look if I had that track nearby 😬

[Pylon80]

Thank you all for some interesting comments on modern racing RC cars compared to Tamiya. Some good insights there. I think it is a bit like comparing someone who would procure a Golf Mk1 wreck, patiently rebuild it, get it prepared for racing and 40,000$ later enjoy his own very unique track day toy. Then someone shows up with a 2024 GTI and raises an eyebrow at the amount of money and time sank into the old Golf project. But I will take the old Mk1 anytime. What does @Andreas W think?

With the heat already here in sunny Arizona, I didn't want to be stuck with a completed chassis ready to go while being unable to spray the body. So, unusually, I figured I would get the body done first. A word on the modern buggy bodies is probably appropriate here. The aerospace engineers in me has a very hard time believing that the shape of the body could possibly affect the way the car pitches up or down while jumping; throttle inputs to the rear wheels are probably considerably greater. Try holding a car from the lower deck and give it a tiny bit of throttle or brake to see what I mean. But anyways, over the last 10 years or so racing buggies have been plagued with the forward cab bodies of doom. I think there is light at the end of the tunnel and the B7 is bringing a tiny bit of hope with a more reasonably centered cab. Just like a lot of people are patiently waiting for the big nerdy eyeglass trend to be over, and everyone is patiently waiting for jeans and pants to be wide again (so we don't need a hydraulic press to put them on), the discerning hobbyists are patiently waiting for the buggy cabs to move aft again!

B6 (sorry for grossing everyone out ):

B7 (Come on, it's a few millimeters more aft isn't it?):

The body of the B6 makes me want to throw up, but I think the B7 gets away with its modernity with very minimal visual hassle. In fact it has already grown on me quite a bit

But none of that matter in the end, the body is always off for maintenance when you are not running the car; and when you are running the car it is too small and too low and too fast (hopefully! :D) to see very much of it. The body by itself looks like this:

The quality of the Lexan is perfect and the line we need to follow is very nice and deep.

I have tried painting a body first then cutting it last just once and it made the paint chip horribly around the edges; so I no longer do that. Let's cut it then. I use the score and fold method and I indulged in a "in one" moment which is a popular quirk on TC:

I have decided that I would not take myself seriously with RC ever, so as a bit of a joke with myself (a sign of impending dementia) I decided to use the same colors as my Golf Mk1, as if I were some high profile racer who had developed his own racing "livery" over the years etc. The Golf looks like this:

I used my tried and tested method of marking an accurate line to help me mask it correctly and symmetrically:

Next up will be sanding the edges smoothly (if they are not smooth I will see it and it will annoy me...) and hopefully spray. These days spraying is still possible early in the morning and late at night, but I know all too well that it is not going to last for more than a few more weeks at best.

[Man1c M0nk3y]

23 hours ago, cyclonecap said:

Just to let you know, many of the parts the break on the KD can be replaced with parts from the Laydown and LD2 with minimal additional changes. The rear transmission is unique but the 4 corners and front end share most of the parts with the Laydown. If you need any help getting the KD running I'd be happy to help with what parts swap over.

Cheers. I may take you up on that. 
The car is currently as new though so no parts needed. I never finished it for various reasons, but if I am to run it I’ll want some spares first. 
I will PM you so as not to derail @Pylon80 build/thread. 

Definitely agree on the 7 body being ‘nicer’ than the 6. 
Interesting to me too that the body needed cutting. I’d assumed maybe it would be pre cut.
That was another area I found pleasantly surprising with my Schumacher. The body was perfectly pre cut. Is that a Schumacher quirk I wonder or do others do it too or indeed if Schumacher even still do. 

Like the idea with the paint and continuity between your cars. 

[Anthroxoid]

@OP, that B7 is a lovely new offering. AE kits are a joy to build as you see modernization and optimization of material usage, suspension geometry (this is a big deal with the B7’s steering knuckle arrangement) and remarkably efficient drivetrains. The 4WD brother to this is similarly exciting. Far from “soul less” you get something that hauls buttocks after the build without breaking itself under its own power. Yeah, forward cab bodies make me puke, too, but extensive wind tunnel analysis shows that a front wing on a fast RC buggy can produce .22 milligrams of downforce at 70kph! Enjoy your foray into competitive 2WD. The 4WD will get you next! Protect thy wallet now

[Andreas W]

4 hours ago, Pylon80 said:

Thank you all for some interesting comments on modern racing RC cars compared to Tamiya. Some good insights there. I think it is a bit like comparing someone who would procure a Golf Mk1 wreck, patiently rebuild it, get it prepared for racing and 40,000$ later enjoy his own very unique track day toy. Then someone shows up with a 2024 GTI and raises an eyebrow at the amount of money and time sank into the old Golf project. But I will take the old Mk1 anytime. What does @Andreas W think?

I am with you all the way thinking this. MK1 any time for me. I talked with my brother the other day about this (he is a die hard american car enthusiast) and I said that I don't need a more modern car than a Golf MK3, if it was made of the same material as an Audi A8.

 

Some of the modern buggys are growing on me. Especially when I see what they are capable of. And I fully understand the advantage of running  the same as others when you are clubbing or racing. It will be interesting to hear about how it goes for you. 

[Jonathon Gillham]

https://leadfingerrc.com/shop-1/ols/products/pre-order-retro-mod-body-clear-for-the-team-associated-b7

Maybe you can have the best of both worlds? New buggy with the old look?

[Man1c M0nk3y]

5 minutes ago, Jonathon Gillham said:

https://leadfingerrc.com/shop-1/ols/products/pre-order-retro-mod-body-clear-for-the-team-associated-b7

Maybe you can have the best of both worlds? New buggy with the old look?

Now I’d be all over that if I had a B7. 

[Anthroxoid]

2 hours ago, Man1c M0nk3y said:

Now I’d be all over that if I had a B7. 

No kidding. Wow, what a nice blending of oldschool buggy design with this new chassis. Just needs a less frenetic paint job and that’d look quite schnazzy!

[Howards]

On 5/3/2024 at 6:53 PM, Pylon80 said:

Then someone shows up with a 2024 GTI and can't find the button on the touch screen that turns traction control off, silently weeps, then goes home.

; )

[Pylon80]

The wind was a bit too high to start spraying so I could not help getting started on the chassis. I will try to only highlight the details I find unusual (well, everything about this car feels pretty alien to me...) or particularly interesting.

Steering Set

The kit comes with bearings (haha). Seriously, the bearings are the type with one side rubber shield, other side metal shield. The rubber is blue  The steering bridge is particularly well made, being reinforced plastic and made with such an accurate tolerance that there is no perceptible play, yet the bearings are perfectly smooth (no unwanted axial preload on the bearings). All very impressive. We are sometimes led to believe that the best steering set must be machined aluminum but I don't think that is true.

One thing that was interesting is that the plastic seems to be doing better without taping the threads. It feels both strong and slightly flexible if that makes sense; as such you don't really hear the 'click' when installing fasteners and so I think it is best to screw them in directly. It feels just right doing so anyway. I will have to be particularly careful upon re-installation not to butcher new threads on top of the original ones.

The steering arms are installed with a machined "hat" bushing that can be flipped in order to alter the height. So, I already need to make a setup decision, high steering vs low steering! There are so many options that I decided to build the entire buggy per the manual's starting point, with everything as neutral as possible. Then I can talk to the fast guys at the track and slowly make changes. I did find a setup sheet of a B7d that was raced just a few weeks ago at the same track during the Desert Classic race weekend; however there were many aftermarket parts used and so I will not attempt to duplicate that setup just for starting out. And to some extend I want to live through my own journey of learning how to set the car up, with help from local racers, rather than using the Internet Monkey-See-Monkey-Do approach.

Lower Deck

The lower deck is something to behold...

It is made of aluminum, I would guess 7075, all beautifully machined and anodized in bronze color.

The steering bridge is attached with 2 screws for now, 2 more later on with the bumper and then 3 more with some sort of upper deck that will make the front end bullet proof, in order to survive those horrendous cartwheel crashes that I saw at the track. Again there are many options and the kit comes with the 0deg kickup/caster blocks (blue anodized of course) and other angles available if need be. I am setting the car to 25deg, smack bang in the center, per the manual's recommendation.

A nice detail I noticed on the lower deck is the machined channel that enables running the sensor wire stealthily under the battery!

Then we attach the side rails and the deck becomes extremely rigid. I particularly like how they protect the sides, under the chassis.

A fan mount is provided but I will skip it for now. I will have to see what the motor temps are like.

Then a really nice touch: self adhesive battery foams to prevent the battery chaffing against the lower deck... Can I buy these separately for my other cars?

Another nice touch is the ballast weight which will also be the ESC and Rx tray, so you can remove your electronics for maintenance! The kit comes with the lightest one which is aluminum. Other materials are available. Since I am using a standard servo (roughly 60grams) I am sure this one will be fine. Also I surely lack the experience to be able to tell the effect of various ballast weights so I have plenty of time to worry about those. But I would see how I could make my own out of brass if I wanted a heavier weight without spending the money. Of course the weight is tapped with M2 threads and 4 tiny M2 countersunk screws are supplied... Also bonus point for a different shade of anodizing which make the ballast weight stand out 

Next up will be the servo installation. I have to say that it's hard to pretend to be cold to all the awesomeness and exquisite quality so far.

[bRIBEGuy]

22 hours ago, Pylon80 said:

I will have to be particularly careful upon re-installation not to butcher new threads on top of the original ones.

A friendly suggestion/best practice for this...  When you go to re-insert the screw, start off by slowly turning it backwards (counterclockwise) as if removing it.  As the screw rotates around, there will be a point where the threads in the screw line up with the threads in the plastic, and you will feel a "click".  At that point start threading normally, and the threads in the screw will be aligned with the threads in the plastic.

[Pylon80]

29 minutes ago, bRIBEGuy said:

A friendly suggestion/best practice for this...  When you go to re-insert the screw, start off by slowly turning it backwards (counterclockwise) as if removing it.  As the screw rotates around, there will be a point where the threads in the screw line up with the threads in the plastic, and you will feel a "click".  At that point start threading normally, and the threads in the screw will be aligned with the threads in the plastic.

Thank you, and no worries. I am well versed on this. I have provided this tip many times over, here on TC and I'm happy to admit having learned about it on here myself years ago!  You can't spread the word too much on that topic. 

But the point I was making is that the plastic on the B7D does not lend itself well to doing that technique. Somehow, your can't feel the click when turning CCW, which is what I was hinting to. So I'll have to be very careful when reinstalling the screws. In fact you can feel the threads but it's extremely minute and you need to pay real good attention and take your time to make sure your not making new threads. 

The brittle plastics used on some Tamiya chassis on the other end, while being more fragile, will provide a very positive and even audible click. Just very different.

[Pylon80]

Masking

The window masks are pre-cut (cool) but in order to place them accurately I still cut them with the backing on, then snip a small edge of backing, position it, stick the exposed portion and finally peel of the rest of the backing. A very nice touch is that the window masks are provided as small and large, so you can paint window trims/edges in a different color if you want. I simply went for the large ones with only one color around the windows.

I then masked along my Sharpy line with my trusty Tamiya masking tape. I felt like a bit of a Wily-iine, re-doing the livery from the Golf a second time

Painting

Against my better judgement and fearing that the spraying window would close soon, I sprayed PS-54 last night when the temperature was still higher than my usual "not above 28degC" rule. I find it possible but harder to do a good job in higher temperature; in particular if you spray it just a tiny bit too thick, when you would normally just have to wait a little longer before the next coat, in higher temperature you get orange peel. And I have learned that there is not point emptying the whole can on that area in hope of fixing it: the paint will continue to accumulate on the highs and avoid the lows. So the result looks good on the picture but not pitch perfect in real life. Not a disaster and at least the line between Cobalt Green and Black is quite crisp and very straight. It should do nicely for its intended purpose

Lifting the overspray film is always fun:

I really love that color. And it was all "free", re-using the bottom of the cans of PS-54, PS-1 and PS-5 from the Golf. It's a very small body even compared to an M-chassis.

Now that the paint is done, I can slow down and enjoy the ride. I will finish preparing the XJR-12 to enter this month's Endurance Racing By Post, then resume the work on the B7 chassis.

[RichieRich]

I have not started my build yet but I love seeing your progress so far. Before I go any further, I should say, that I do like the paintwork you've just completed. I just saw a new retro body for the B7 made by Leadfinger RC. It has a "normal" buggy look with the cab towards the rear which is a shape that I like. I just ordered one. I'd like to get one for my B6.3 also once they start making those. Maybe I'll start a build thread once the new body arrives.

Edited May 9, 2024 by RichieRich
I meant to add a pic from their website.

[Andreas W]

2 hours ago, RichieRich said:

I have not started my build yet but I love seeing your progress so far. Before I go any further, I should say, that I do like the paintwork you've just completed. I just saw a new retro body for the B7 made by Leadfinger RC. It has a "normal" buggy look with the cab towards the rear which is a shape that I like. I just ordered one. I'd like to get one for my B6.3 also once they start making those. Maybe I'll start a build thread once the new body arrives.

I took a look at that body now a d it's beautiful. The estetics for a modern race buggy is hereby solved. 

 

@Pylon80. Well done with the build and paintjob. It's always a pleasure to read your detailed builds and reflections over it. Now go out and race that Jag for 30 mins .