Why arent Tamiya RCs "competitive"?

[Gebbly 760]

People in the RC hobby love Tamiya RC for all sorts of reasons. The vehicles have their ups and downs and some of whats good or bad is very subjective. But one thing that most people seem to agree on is that Tamiya RC vehicles are not competitive when compared with other manufacturers. Why is this? I dont mean, why don't Tamiya want to make competitive vehicles. I mean what makes a vehicle competitive and what is it that Tamiya vehicles lack and other manufacturers have?

To my extremely beginner eye a lot of RC cars are broadly the same. Similar plastics, similar servos and motors, similar shapes for aerodynamics. Could someone explain the sorts of things that make a vehicle "more competitive"? Do other manufacturers use materials that are lighter, or faster motors or something?

[Twinfan 1796]

Good question.  Might it come down to adjustability?  For example, a recent comment on the TD2 and TD4 is that the shocks can't be set up well enough for racing.  True racing models always seem to have loads of options for shocks, shock lengths, shock positions etc.

[BuggyDad 5322]

In most cases, Tamiya aren't making a product for racing, their products have a slightly different intention, which includes catching our interest in areas of aesthetics, interesting design points and the like, and in many cases nostalgia. Even when they do make something new that's in the race arena, eg TD2/4, they tend to compromise the last few percent of performance for some of the above. So firstly I think your question relates only to the minority of their models that are current new designs with a broad racing intention, so not the rereleases or things like the BBX. 

In a new market or application, the products in it might in the early years be quite wildly different from one another, with quite bold new innovations appearing, some of which will leave everything else in their dust, but most will not catch on. Then as the market matures they often tend towards one particular type as one solution wins out, so become more and more similar. Race RC buggies have done this - their overall layouts have become very similar and in the hunt for small performance gains, tunability, the last level of toughness, and whatever else racers really value, that they have to stay ahead of to survive, they have sacrificed looks. 

So my take is Tamiya decided not to be one of the handful of companies that focus on this sharp end, instead going for a niche that's slightly different. Us lot! Or maybe it's the Japanese market really. But anyway, yay for us. 

But then, you can still have really good performance in that sort of niche, just not the absolute race winner. The TD4 is much closer to a current race buggy than it is to a Hotshot. 

[Honza 1090]

Tamiya did make competitive chassis some 10 years ago. TA05, TB-03 DN-01 and DB-01 were essentially cheaper variants of their TRF offerings. And just like TRFs, they probably didn't sell large enough quantities to be profitable.. TRF range got reduced to TRF4xx, with limited runs of TB-evo, TRF buggies were discontinued entirely, the mid-range reoriented to more experimental designs to various degrees of success...

I'd say that there's one category where Tamiya is very competitive - rally. While other manufacturers just slap longer shocks on an onroad chassis, Tamiya si far made three different purpose-build chassis from the ground up.

Problem with all this is, that it's not as well known as their entry and toy grade offerings. Which also tells a lot about why they focus on those.

[Howards 586]

The T series chassis (TB / TD) are club racer spec. As above, so are the X series. So were the D series. 

1 hour ago, Gebbly said:

Could someone explain the sorts of things that make a vehicle "more competitive"? Do other manufacturers use materials that are lighter, or faster motors or something?

Great question, something I've been thinking about a lot, especially when it comes to buggies. 

The materials are mostly the same, mix GRP, plastic, aluminium, steel, bit of Ti if that's what you fancy. The electrics can be the same. Their gearboxes are no more efficient, at least, not the point where it would make a difference that a club racer would care about or notice. Modern batteries and motors are so good that drive efficiency has become a secondary concern. 

The difference is optimising for contemporary tracks. You can break what this is down in to two areas;

1. Local component design decisions (i.e. 13mm bore shocks and dual rate springs, variable rebound pistons, steering geo). These give marginal incremental performance benefits that add up to a marginal difference per lap. 

2. More fundamental chassis layout decisions - which comes down to exactly where the weight is. This has a more pronounced effect on cornering and jumping performance, and allows tuning that's more sympathetic to modern buggy tracks found in Europe and the US.

They are also tougher where it matters. More reinforcement around uprights, suspension mounts, bulkheads, steering.

Adjustability is a bit of red herring. The layout and primary geo that's baked in on the drawing board and in the factory decides the tuning window, and adjusting within that window provides marginal performance improvements or decrements. 

[Elbowloh 1230]

The TRF TCs are competitive.

[Alex97 452]

Tamiyas target market isn't the racers who are paying £600 for a kit. It's far easier for Tamiya to sell 6 kits at £100 then 1 high end racer model at £600. I'd also say that the profit margins are much higher as well on the cheaper models, if you look at a TT-02 90% of the kit is injection moulded using low costs materials that are easy to manufacture. If you look at a higher end RC there's a lot of metal CNC items and high cost materials (carbon fibre, titanium ect) plus everyone is expecting you to release a new model every year with changes, the RND costs would be quite high. 

 

Tamiya knows it's place in the market, if it's wasn't profitable then they wouldn't still be here. 

[alvinlwh 6884]

Tamiya keeps pushing out and rereing TT-02, or worse, TT-01E and people keep buying them. These, in their base form, are just toy grade.

I kept saying, comparing like for like in the price range of around £100, there are others that are better spec than the TTs. Some examples I can think of are 3R S64 or the new Cero, Carten T410, HPI RS4 Sports 3, FTX Banzai, just to name a few. All these other options offer so much more OOB (bearings, adjustable suspension, oil shocks, etc) that allows a bargain basement chassis to be set up for racing and will easily beat an equivalent priced TT.

The TT is great for getting people in the hobby, but once they see how other brands performs, they move away from Tamiya completely, especially if they sunk a huge amount of money on their first TT and still not win races. This means that few will use Tamiya at higher tier races, meaning sales of TRF is quite low as mentioned above.

[Wheel_Nut 365]

Tamiya specialises in the best quality plastic injection moldings - That forms the core of their product designs.   Most of their products are based on plastic mouldings with low cost materials and manufacturing, which creates some limitation in the performance of the designs.   There are some nice Hop-Up parts available at high cost.  However a compromised design with expensive upgrades generally does not result in the same performance as a product engineered for a single purpose from the ground up.   There could also be a question about the type of engineering talents they employ.   It seems like they are expert in manufacturing techniques, scale models, and plastic molding tool design, but not as talented in engineering of the chassis and vehicle dynamics.   I recall that Cecil Schumacher had a previous career as part of Cosworth power transmissions, so he had exposure to real engineering in full size motorsport.   I wonder if Tamiya have recruited someone with an actual motorsport background or vehicle dynamics qualifications.

 

 

[Wooders28 4860]

Think the On-Road TRF (Tamiya Racing Factory), cars where very competitive, and the Off-Road TRF showed some promise, in the hands of Lee Martin, but not sure the investment generated enough sales? 

The likes of Schumacher where born out of racing (Cecil Schumacher was a F1 Cosworth Gearbox engineer, so it was all about racing), where Tamiya where more about models.

Tamiya seem to be slow at , modernising (?), ie still only a few models have Slippers, electrics or chassis not designed for modern lipos etc, (the 04s seemingly now has provisions for cut off, at least a decade after everyone else...)

Looks wise, Tamiya every day of the week, performance wise...😬

Tbh, I quite like it that way, otherwise every car would look the same, and not have, character...

[River19 65]

In addition to the myriad of reasons listed already above......the reality is "racing" is actually a fairly small segment of the overall RC car world.  "Bashing" and just plain old driving/playing with RC cars is a much larger segment and I think Tamiya does a great job of have a lot of offerings in that segment especially with an eye on affordability and "scale visuals".

They aren't in the hardcore bashing ring with Traxxas or Arrma throwing out offerings at 4S and 6S and marketing to 60+mph with tons of YTers launching their cars off ramps and stuff, but to the average home bashers the Tamiya cars are "fun" and cheap.

The TRF on-road especially the new 421 is competitive so far based on reports.  There is nothing TRF is going to drop right now that will instantly match Schumacher, TLR, AE etc in the 1/10th or 1/8th off-road game IMHO.  I think they know that, so they don't bother.

[Gebbly 760]

Dont get me wrong, Tamiyas RC vehicles are perfect for me. I love all the quirkeness. Trikes, 6 wheelers, fun buggies, tanks. I like their choices.

As I say "I dont mean, why don't Tamiya want to make competitive vehicles. I mean what makes a vehicle competitive and what is it that Tamiya vehicles lack and other manufacturers have?"

I'm just looking to learn what sort of components and mechanicals people consider are needed to make an RC "competitive".

[DV8Always 6]

Tamiya does have their own racing series as well.

[Rinskie 851]

I think it's an honest question but my memory back to 86's, Tamiya's were only competitive against the Tamiya's or the odd entry level Kyosho. If you wanted to compete you got an RC10 or an Ultima and a little later down the road you had your Losi Double X's. What I find more interesting are the companies that once only made racing stuff are now making toy grade disposables RC's. 

[Gebbly 760]

18 minutes ago, Rinskie said:

If you wanted to compete you got an RC10 or an Ultima and a little later down the road you had your Losi Double X's

So what was it that these cars had that gave them the edge over Tamiyas? Were there things you would spot on a car and think to yourself, "ah yes, that will give better performance" or something?

[GermanTA03Guy 1372]

I'd highlight 2 factors as well:

A) slop: tamiyas are for huge serial production which means big tolerances and also for novices to build. Which means, the parts have to fit without reworking . For a competition model, pro builders dont worry about shimming or reaming until every moving part moves perfect without binding or slop as they know what they are doing ... or just pay more for really precise manufacturing. Whilt novices just put everything together and then complain if it doesnt work. This means safety tolerances, which means wobbly parts and maybe quirky handling etc. With focus on fun and not laptime...

B - battery fitment:  tamiya has always incorporated their easy to use Stick Packs in chassis Design. Back in the day pros used saddle Packs for better Balance and Center of gravity, today its the lcg batteries or shorties, whilst today tsmiya still focuses on a battery form factor similar to Stick packs: the life 6.6 sticks which are easy and safe for little kids. 

This battery thing leads also to a compromised weight balance, center of gravity etc.

C - ease of use for driving/handling

I think the basic geometries of most tamiya cars is very novice safe. Exaggerated: for racing you need a car that wants to turn, so you can throw it around and dont need massive steering input to get around the corners.  This needs expertise and experience in driving and setup. Otherwise you just spin out. This would be frustrating for beginners. I think most tamiya cars dont do that. They are made to be steered "by small children" so you can just go full lock and still make the corner. This is not fast and also not satisfying for Experts. Of course a lot can be dialed out, but not everything. I thinkmost tamiya cars are not extremely agile but rather have a safe and slow handling. 

Then there are other factors like weight, complexity, stiffness, cost of manufacturing of parts, setup options, etc. Pp, where tamiya just focuses on other things than laptime perfection...

Oh and maybe a good summary is "highy foolproof" which says the avove aboutbuilding, driving, running,  adjusting...and also goes together with the typical tamiya quality out of the Box... no need to think, know or fiddle anything, Just follow the easy manual and it will work (somehow and tame). No complaints because something isnt right and needs an expert to understand and Set up properly sharp. Tamiyas are not razors edge sharp in any way... 

[GermanTA03Guy 1372]

23 minutes ago, Gebbly said:

So what was it that these cars had that gave them the edge over Tamiyas? Were there things you would spot on a car and think to yourself, "ah yes, that will give better performance" or something?

Regarding rc10 or losi xx i think things like Hydra drive, a slipper, suspension and more aggressive steering geometry and other materials than abs or cast alu/steel, as well as scale details, ...  where what set ae and losi apart from tamiya e.g.... 

[River19 65]

4 hours ago, Rinskie said:

I think it's an honest question but my memory back to 86's, Tamiya's were only competitive against the Tamiya's or the odd entry level Kyosho. If you wanted to compete you got an RC10 or an Ultima and a little later down the road you had your Losi Double X's. What I find more interesting are the companies that once only made racing stuff are now making toy grade disposables RC's. 

I will go back even a little further, in the early early days of off-road racing when I was a kid (early to mid 80s), the Tamiya car everyone had was a Grasshopper or Hornet if you were lucky.  However.......the Super Champ was the one Tamiya buggy that was race worthy at the time.....until as @Rinskie mentioned......someone got an RC10.  Then things changed......and the RC10 variants with the metal chassis, the very effective suspension, the fact the cars were very tunable etc. made them first walk away from the Super Champ but then run away at a good clip.  Then the aftermarket support for the RC10 really took it further.  Late 80s, Ultima, JRX2 etc were the main competitors with the RC10 variants.....  Tamiya sat relatively still.  They tried with the Avante but.......

When I look at my modern day TLRs and Schumacher L1R compared to anything Tamiya, the differences are very apparent as to why no current Tamiya offering is competitive with those.  

[Honza 1090]

1 hour ago, Gebbly said:

I mean what makes a vehicle competitive and what is it that Tamiya vehicles lack and other manufacturers have?

- design - while it's always criticised that one manufacturer of competitive chassis copies from another, design "trends" in racing scene have one advantage - jumping from one manufacturer to another is easier because of familiar setups and driving style. It happened numerous times that some manufacturer brang radical design, just to change to more familiar design in the next iteration, while others took some ideas... Overall, the target of the design is performance. Meanwhile, in the less competitive scene, main target is simplicity and ease if manufacture - a typical Tamiya is made of four, five large plastic sprues? These can be made cheaply in hundred of thousands quantities.

- materials - typical competitive chassis is combination of carbon fibre, aluminium alloys, high quality steel and fibre reinforced plastics. Just like in the design paragraph, these materials are chosen for their mechanical qualities, not so much for ease of manufacture - used alloys cannot be easily die-cast, FRP require higher quality moulds with more frequent cycles, almost everything has to be machined and sometimes heat treated. Non-competitive cars can get away with cheaper materials made to looser tolerances, which don't wear out tooling as much. Metal parts, if there are any, are die-cast, sintered, cut from stock or stamped to save costs.

- features - this paragraph is most obvious, but the previous ones are IMO more important - you can throw features of racing chassis on a TT-02, but it still won't be competitive due to previous reason. At the same time, mid-range Tamiya can be more competitive even when it doesn't have all bells and whistles and it's still mostly plastic.

[DTSCB 98]

2 hours ago, GermanTA03Guy said:

Regarding rc10 or losi xx i think things like Hydra drive, a slipper, suspension and more aggressive steering geometry and other materials than abs or cast alu/steel, as well as scale details, ...  where what set ae and losi apart from tamiya e.g.... 

This is funny.  I just put new tires on my Losi XX (rears only, the old ones were bald racing slicks) and was racing it around (with a wonky FM transmitter).  It just handles and runs so nice.  I may have a brushed 17T motor on it.  So, while it isn't as fast, it is faster than the 90s and it is rather fun to drive (for 10 minutes until the motor is hot).  It just wants to handle well and do what I want.  It is just a basic XX too.  I retired my JRX Pro SE (used shelf queen?), but I need to get new tires (in the mail) for my JRX Pro clone, to run that. 

My Tamiya Top Force Evo is nice and way faster than the Losi buggies.  But the Losi ones just want to run and turn tight and do what I want.  The Top Force Evo, I can hear the wheels (with 4WD vs 2WD) forcing their way into what I want it to do.  My TA-02T F150, I've gotten better at driving.  With the 10.5T brushless motor, it is wildly faster than it was ever intended and I can drive it somewhat well, assuming I race it just right... and even then I still get some unexpected rollovers.

I'm not a racer and was never a great driver, but my Losi cars from the 90s just want to do better.  While the Top Force Evo is a dream to run around, it just isn't as nice as the Losi cars.  Maybe I should try making it RWD only and see if that changes how I like it.

[Kowalski86 3983]

What makes most modern Tamiyas non-compeitive is a combination of design and most RC racing being hyper competitive to the point of design being homogenized, I can't tell one "Truggy" from the other.

That being said, "competitiveness" doesn't always make an RC more fun off the track, sometimes you just want something simple, most pure "race-grade" RCs make for poor bashers.

[Gebbly 760]

1 hour ago, Kowalski86 said:

"competitiveness" doesn't always make an RC more fun off the track

Absolutely, the videos I have seen with the biggest driver grin factor have been things like the dancing rider, pumpkin, G6-01

[GermanTA03Guy 1372]

11 hours ago, DTSCB said:

on my Losi XX (rears only, the old ones were bald racing slicks) and was racing it around (with a wonky FM transmitter).  It just handles and runs so nice.  I may have a brushed 17T motor on it.  So, while it isn't as fast, it is faster than the 90s and it is rather fun to drive (for 10 minutes until the motor is hot).  It just wants to handle well and do what I want.  It is just a basic XX too.  I retired my JRX Pro SE (used shelf queen?), but I need to get new tires (in the mail) for my JRX Pro clone, to run that. 

My Tamiya Top Force Evo is nice and way faster than the Losi buggies.  But the Losi ones just want to run and turn tight and do what I want.  The Top Force Evo, I can hear the wheels (with 4WD vs 2WD) forcing their way into what I want it to do.

Good point. Free drivetrains is maybe also a thing. I remember being Impressed a lot by Losis, yokomos etc in the 90s, how much punch, acceleration they were able to deliver and how quiet, efficient and effortless.... 

Compared to that my tamiyas felt as if they had to work harder to accelerate, which you could hear, see and feel...  

[wolfdogstinkus 1963]

Tamiya's were once sold in toy shops. 

I'm not talking about Beatties, I mean places like catalogue companies that put a lunchbox and a hornet at the bottom of their massive toy selection which makes them look like high end toys.

If you want a race car you have to go to a proper model shop?.

Perhaps that helped to cement their status as at best "entry level" and worst as "expensive toys" to the average first time buyer at least 

I don't think I've ever seen a hobby brand RC anywhere other than a dedicated model shop?. 

[wolfdogstinkus 1963]

Double posted so I'll edit to add.

Lack of steering and gearing doesn't help either.

Or limited gearing in some models, not fully adjustable.