A Little Warning for the RC10 Guys

[Kowalski86 3983]

I don't know what this will entail for you guys going forward. I can't say that I like it though, coming from a company with a record for mediocre parts support.

[scoobybooster 280]

This adresses Fan RC for sure. AE is not amused- this was to be expected

[JimBear 793]

That was my thinking too - small parts for a specific model might pass, but not the whole kit ...

And maybe that's why it seems to be such a rush for AE to pour out the whole re-re bucket ...

[Mad Ax 10027]

I'm guessing this won't be a good thing for the hobby as a whole.  AE do have a right to protect their property, and nobody wants to see AE go under entirely or abandon re-re parts support because they're losing too much money to unauthorised repops, but AE don't seem to be interested in the hobby or the fans, or at least the vintage side of it.

The vintage racing scene (at least here in the UK) has gone absolutely crazy, but AE's re-re strategy has been to release a tiny number of kits at exclusive collector prices, so I don't see many of those kits making it to the track.  Sure, they might be re-reing through their back-catalog to try to head off competition, but it seems to me they just want to cash in on the exclusive collector bubble before it bursts.  Having re-pop'd the parts for the RC10 Classic, they could make it a mainstay release (or at least do a bigger production run to bring the entry price down) and keep the spares in production for a reasonable timeframe, so we can actually race them as they were intended.  If we could get original parts from AE, we wouldn't need to buy from unauthorised vendors.

That said, releasing an entire car kit without authorisation, even using the same name as the original, was not a wise move and I'm kinda surprised it's taken this long for something to be done about it.

[Pablo68 1094]

I have to say, I hadn't heard of FAN RC before watching a build video of their carbon chassis RC10. My first thought was, how can they do this and not get sued?
I kinda assumed they must have permission.

If FAN RC are their target, or anyone else producing the whole kit, I get it, BUT they need to come to the party and just produce a decent run of the RC10 so they can be got at a good price.
AND SPARES!!!

[Saito2 7237]

Sigh, here we go....Glad I run an Ultima,

[Kowalski86 3983]

3 hours ago, Mad Ax said:

I'm guessing this won't be a good thing for the hobby as a whole.  AE do have a right to protect their property, and nobody wants to see AE go under entirely or abandon re-re parts support because they're losing too much money to unauthorised repops, but AE don't seem to be interested in the hobby or the fans, or at least the vintage side of it.

Imo expensive collectors "toys" are bad for any hobby be it RC or Hot Wheels, it just caters to a small group of obsessive snobs.

22 minutes ago, Saito2 said:

Sigh, here we go....Glad I run an Ultima,

I've just recently gotten back into the Tamiya game myself.

[markbt73 5604]

I hadn't heard of Fan RC until now, just looking at their website. Yeah, that's pretty brazen. Although - I can't say some of those prices aren't tempting. $30 for a set of 2.25 Stealth outdrives? I paid $55 for a pair a couple years ago.

The thing is, Associated has every right, and in fact a duty, to protect their designs. But anyone else has every right to make parts that "fit" an RC10, or any other model. They just can't be exact copies, or presented as the real deal. That is the entire basis of the aftermarket, both in RC and in real cars, and it is necessary for a heathy and thriving hobby. Nearly every old classic car you see, from a common Camaro to a Hispano-Suiza, has some non-original parts in them somewhere. If they didn't they would have been junked long ago.

I think Fan RC needs to get their hand slapped pretty hard over this one, frankly. But companies like RPM, who make improved and slightly different versions of parts to fit RC cars, must be left alone to do their thing. That way, casual runners and vintage-class racers can keep their cars running easily, if maybe not completely original, and collectors who insist on "genuine" parts will just have to pay up.

Let's just hope Associated and others understand the difference between IP theft and aftermarket suppliers. I think they do.

[Kowalski86 3983]

1 hour ago, markbt73 said:

They just can't be exact copies, or presented as the real deal.

Fan RC makes it pretty clear that their upcoming kit is not a legit RC10 kit:

https://teamknkhardware.com/shop/fan-rc/rc10/fan-rc-fr-01-graphite-worlds-kit-pre-order/

[IXLR8 1268]

The first paragraph in AE's statement is directed toward the misuse of their trademarked names, logos, etc. since a part cannot be trademarked or copyrighted.  Designs can be patented but that expires after 7 years.

FanRC and others are making parts to fit vintage RC10's because AE has discontinued those parts.  That should be obvious to them.  Demand for those parts will continue no matter who is making them.

I think FanRC will need to be very careful how they market their parts and they should be fine.

[F-150 510]

4 hours ago, Pablo68 said:

I have to say, I hadn't heard of FAN RC before watching a build video of their carbon chassis RC10. My first thought was, how can they do this and not get sued?
I kinda assumed they must have permission.

If FAN RC are their target, or anyone else producing the whole kit, I get it, BUT they need to come to the party and just produce a decent run of the RC10 so they can be got at a good price.
AND SPARES!!!

I though this too...they must have permission to do a direct copy of the RC10.  I have to say I am pretty interested in the fanRC version....looks real nice.

 

[Kowalski86 3983]

10 hours ago, IXLR8 said:

FanRC and others are making parts to fit vintage RC10's because AE has discontinued those parts.

When I was restoring my own RC10 I ordered a set of FanRC tube nose bars, I don't believe that AE offers that part nor do they offer idler gears for the 6-gear transmission.

The timing between this and AEs announcement of replacement parts is very suspicious. Its not unlike what Traxxas did just before the TRX4M released.

I dunno, I have a Hornet to work on.

[Saito2 7237]

I pretty much agree with what other's have said, particularly @Mad Ax. I also hadn't heard of Fan RC until GTodd started repeatedly mentioning it.

You won't find me supporting exact copies like the Bruiser clone. However, producing a similar design version in greater numbers because Associated wants to play the "limited edition" exclusivity card is fine by me. That's the risk Associated takes by not approaching to meet demand with a high dollar collector trinket instead. Tamiya could have tried the same tactic with the Hotshot re-release in 2007 by offering it in limited quantities at a premium price (and sold every one as well), but they didn't. It is still available today for all who wish to enjoy them. I don't think anyone's making a knock-off Hotshot either. Needless to say, I prefer Tamiya's take. The Fan RC stuff does seem a bit too close for comfort in some cases, but if there's a market for these vintage designs and if companies like Associated or Losi etc, don't want to meet demand or even try, well, than have at it.

[Mad Ax 10027]

21 hours ago, Kowalski86 said:

Fan RC makes it pretty clear that their upcoming kit is not a legit RC10 kit:

https://teamknkhardware.com/shop/fan-rc/rc10/fan-rc-fr-01-graphite-worlds-kit-pre-order/

Interesting, but the FR-01 kit does sit neatly under the RC10 category, and the L&L Models link does list it as an RC10 kit.  I haven't been keeping up with FanRC stuff but I wonder if they have changed the name in light of this..?

[Twinfan 1796]

Given that the design came out 40 years ago and patents have long since expired, it's all down to trademarks.  Is "RC10" a trademark?  If not, then Team Associated haven't really got a leg to stand on.  Same with "Worlds" or "Teams".  I suspect as long as they don't mention Team Associated, Fan RC can do what they want, both morally and legally.  They don't seem to call the entire kit an RC10, just an FR-01.

It reminds me of MST in the 1:1 car world.  They're producing brand new Ford Escort mk1s and mk2s for wealthy enthusiasts.  They don't mention Ford or Escort, so all's good: https://mst-cars.com/#

[scoobybooster 280]

Just saw that Tamico has listed the Graphite kit for pre-order again. Available around August.
I'm curious to see if this is really the case. I can imagine that there are currently a few heated phone calls between AE and Fan RC in the background. It's hard to imagine that this will simply continue for Fan RC. Especially as Fan RC is a small, family-run company and is unlikely to get involved in a confrontation with AE. Both are U.S. companies, and experience has shown that the issue of copyright and licensing is not as relaxed as elsewhere.

 

[markturbo 206]

FanRC doesn't sell an RC10 or RC10 parts, they sell an RC buggy that looks like an RC10, and they sell parts that fit on an RC10. They don't sell items branded as Team Associated or RC10. 

[moffman 5924]

I think all these rc manufacturers need to be looking at there modern products to see if one Company or another is ripping them off with each others products! Because I was looking at the top level RC racing and I couldn’t make out one buggy from another especially 1/8th nitro and electric they all look identical bit like F1 exactly the same apart from different liveries.

[Collin 2040]

49 minutes ago, markturbo said:

FanRC doesn't sell an RC10 or RC10 parts, they sell an RC buggy that looks like an RC10, and they sell parts that fit on an RC10. They don't sell items branded as Team Associated or RC10. 

well, the design is the same, no? not writing Nike on a fake Airmax is not enough to be a different shoe.

a company does have rights on a design. no matter if it is named after it or not.

[Kowalski86 3983]

28 minutes ago, Collin said:

well, the design is the same, no? not writing Nike on a fake Airmax is not enough to be a different shoe.

Design patents expire after 7 years, most of the original RC10s are well over that age.

[Superluminal 3841]

Im pretty sure the word "RC10" was listed on the description prior to this which is the troublesome bit, and vendors were referring to it as such.

[Twinfan 1796]

2 hours ago, Superluminal said:

Im pretty sure the word "RC10" was listed on the description prior to this which is the troublesome bit, and vendors were referring to it as such.

But if FanRC don't do that, retailers do, then FanRC have done nothing wrong.

[Twinfan 1796]

2 hours ago, Kowalski86 said:

Design patents expire after 7 years, most of the original RC10s are well over that age.

I'm not a patent expert, but some designs/products can have patents for more than 7 years.  However, in the case of the RC10, I'm pretty sure nothing has held a patent for longer than 40 years!

[Kowalski86 3983]

9 hours ago, Saito2 said:

 Tamiya could have tried the same tactic with the Hotshot re-release in 2007 by offering it in limited quantities at a premium price (and sold every one as well), but they didn't. It is still available today for all who wish to enjoy them.

Tamiya could have also chased after the many Grasshopper/Hornet clones back in the 80s, yet they didn't, they didn't even have a problem with the Turbo "Hopper" RC buggies.

[bRIBEGuy 3315]

2 hours ago, Kowalski86 said:

Design patents expire after 7 years, most of the original RC10s are well over that age.

 

9 minutes ago, Twinfan said:

I'm not a patent expert, but some designs/products can have patents for more than 7 years.  However, in the case of the RC10, I'm pretty sure nothing has held a patent for longer than 40 years!

Patent stuff is deeply rooted with all sorts of timelines, but a design patent in USA/Canada is typically 10-15 years, with a Utility Patent lasting for 20 years.  The patent is only applicable to the country (or countries) it was registered in.

Now, with that said, Team Associated's statement has no mention of any patent infringement, but referred instead to trademarks (which are 10 years long and re-newable indefinitely) and copyrights (50+ years).