Buying my second Tamiya kit - but which one?

[Rookie Rabbit]

Tamiyaclub community,

 

 

 

I am currently thinking of buying my second Tamiya kit, and I am highly interested in your thoughts.

 

Half a year ago I bought my first RC proper car, a Fighter Buggy RX Memorial (47460).

positives:
- nostalgia (although I am "generation Mad Fighter", I vaguely remember seeing this car in stores and catalogues)
- reliable off roading ability
- strong ABS body with integrated with and a driver figure
- cheap & cheerful

negatives:
- rear wheel wobble (I assume the driveshafts are too long and soft to withstand shocks from rocks, crashes and centrifugal forces of worn and dirty wheels without bending)
- the battery and its tray are exposed to the elements, leading to difficult cleaning and battery removal
- the front damper stay broke, appears to be a weak point with no factory upgrades

 

My future RC car has to face the same use:
- leisure use only
- rough rural environments (gravel, grass, dirt)

However, it should be "different" enough to be interesting:
- it must have independent rear suspension
- as it is run, replacement parts must be available. Ideally stronger parts.
- given how quickly Tamiya's Square Spike rear tyres wear out,  hard wearing tyre options or gravel are preferred
- it could be more "scale" and / or feature more metal parts

Before I list some kits I thought of, two general questions and one remark:
1. Is 4WD ("different"!) the way to go? Do cars get stuck less (e. g. on grass) and what about running costs?
2. How do polycarbonate bodies hold up well to rollovers, etc.?
3. Please feel free to mention any other car you think of, or cars from different brands as well!

So far I thought of the following cars (in no particular order, and without any comments on my personal preference):
a) DT-02: Sand Viper
b) BB-01: BBX
c) TT-02B: Neo Scorcher / Plasma Edge II
d) TD-2 / TD-4: Astute 2022 / Super Avante
d) Vintage: Blitzer Beetle
e) Vintage: Manta Ray / Top Force
f) Vintage: Avante / VQS / Egress
g) Vintage: Hotshot / Boomerang / Thundershot
h) Vintage: Wild One
i) Vintage: Sand Scorcher / Buggy Champ

 

 

What are your thoughts and recommendations?

I look forward to reading your replies and a bit of discussion. Thank you very much in advance!

 

Best,
Rookie Rabbit

 

 

 

P.S.:
Just for fun, this is my "dream Tamiya": A DT-02 Bear Hawk / Mad Fighter

[Twinfan]

BBX sounds like a winner to me?

[Gebbly]

If you want something "differently interesting" for bashing fun on rough terrain the GF-01 and G6-01 are a quite different design, a laugh to drive, have plentiful spares, can have all sorts of parts from other cars swapped onto them to make them unique, are fairly rugged, good ground clearance for the rough terrain and arent too expensive. (an example of modification is I swapped the arms on mine for the arms from a TL-01B for wider track to stop rolls on cornering).

[JimBear]

Cheap and cheerful upgrade path is a DT-02 Sand Viper (100 euros at Tamico, although it does not have an ESC so it'll be slightly more expensve if you don't happen to have one extra).

I'd leave the vintage models for a bit, unless you are keen on tinkering and spending money on more parts right off.

 

[BuggyDad]

As I read your post the BBX is the first thing that came to my mind. I think among Tamiya buggies it's particularly well suited to rough ground, dirt, gravel type running. It needs pretty much no hop ups and is tough. Better materials than most of the others you mention and perhaps the toughest of the lot. There's also enough adjustability built in. 

On polycarbonate bodies vs hard plastic, I would say that although polycarbonate is thin, it takes its scratches on the unpainted side and hits are more likely to create cracks or scratches where ABS is more prone to a more catastrophic break. I think PC is more appropriate for a runner, with ABS more for show. Also with PC a competent runner is very easy to achieve with one paint colour and a few stickers. Can also have one for running and one for show, which I keep intending to do and not quite getting around to. 

Some negatives of the BBX for balance,  which you might not consider negatives at all:

- it's quite expensive, although for that you do get a higher standard of materials and a lot included that might otherwise be extra costs

- it's a certain type of handling, which is fabulous in its own way but rubbish if you want it to be a track car. Like many things, it's great at what it is, don't expect it to be what it isn't. 

- getting into it for maintenance etc can be a bit of a pain. It's not designed for fast easy dismantling, rather it's deliberately a more involved build and design.

- it's got a narrow track, I think for retro appearance reasons and a retro handling aspect.

- I've found some pretty standard buggy wheels don't fit - you need enough offset or they foul the rear trailing arms. But then it wasn't designed for those and they don't really look right either. 

[Kowalski86]

2 hours ago, Rookie Rabbit said:

Before I list some kits I thought of, two general questions and one remark:
1. Is 4WD ("different"!) the way to go? Do cars get stuck less (e. g. on grass) and what about running costs?
2. How do polycarbonate bodies hold up well to rollovers, etc.?
3. Please feel free to mention any other car you think of, or cars from different brands as well!

 

 

1. In my experience, 4wd with the right tires will always do better on grass than 2wd. 2wd only really works with low cut grass and pin spikes tires.

As far as running costs go, 4wd is usually easier on tires. It's more stuff to upgrade if you choose to, but it doesn't really cost more to run.

2. Polycarbonate usually holds up well to rollovers, especially round bodies (Beetles, Porsches). They also absorb impacts instead of shattering.

To me it sounds like you'd do well with a Squash Van or a CC-02. Both of those are 4wd with tires that won't wear out too soon. A lot of those vintage models use pin spike tires that don't last very long.

[alvinlwh]

One of the Dragons will be my suggestion. In fact my second RC was a Thunder Dragon with only a steel pinion and A8 brace. That thing took quite a beating with only a broken arm to show for it.

Recently I retired it to an easier life and gave it the full metal treatment, just needless waste of money bling.

[markbt73]

For general running in a neighborhood environment, with grass, twigs, gravel, and all that, I usually have more fun with something with big tires and lots of ground clearance.

My all-time favorite Tamiya chassis for backyards and vacant lots is actually the Blackfoot/Monster Beetle, but it does need some reinforcement to the drivetrain. (Lots of info on here on how to do that.) It's an interesting build, has more metal parts than modern designs, and since the Blackfoot defined the wheel/tire size for racing trucks back in the '80s, there are tons of tire options available. The ABS bodies won't stand up to abuse, but they're not exactly fragile either.

The Wild One (or FAV) is a good choice, and still one of my favorite Tamiya buggies. It also can have some drivetrain issues, but the re-release is a lot more sturdy that the old originals. Not a whole lot of upgrade potential, though, unless you get into making your own parts.

Another one to consider is the WR or GF chassis models, which include the Wild Willy 2, all the Comical buggies (which are really mini monster trucks in disguise), the Heavy Dump Truck, a Toyota Land Cruiser, the Konghead and King Yellow 6x6 monster trucks, and the new Squash Van. They're interesting to build, incredibly fun to drive, and just about indestructible by any normal means. They're almost entirely plastic, but in this case that's a good thing. They bounce off of things instead of bending or breaking. You'll want ball bearings right from the start - there are a lot of gears in that gearbox - but they're all common "1150" bearings (5x11x4mm) that are widely and cheaply available.

[skom25]

4 hours ago, Rookie Rabbit said:

a) DT-02: Sand Viper

Really, really nice kit even straight from the box. You can also thing about DT-03, which is newer version of RWD Buggy, but requires few Hop Ups.

4 hours ago, Rookie Rabbit said:

c) TT-02B: Neo Scorcher / Plasma Edge II

Do not buy it. It is very poor kit and you need A LOT of money, to make it at least acceptable.

[Kowalski86]

3 hours ago, alvinlwh said:

One of the Dragons will be my suggestion. In fact my second RC was a Thunder Dragon with only a steel pinion and A8 brace. That thing took quite a beating with only a broken arm to show for it.

If you can find one,  Terra Scorcher kits come with bearings and a handful of adjustable bits.

7 hours ago, Rookie Rabbit said:

c) TT-02B: Neo Scorcher / Plasma Edge II

The TT02B only really works on asphalt or carpet, it's too low for any real off-roading and it's not geared for bigger wheels.

[skom25]

5 minutes ago, Kowalski86 said:

The TT02B only really works on asphalt or carpet, it's too low for any real off-roading and it's not geared for bigger wheels.

Main issue is slope everywhere and really soft plastic. Compared to even stock DT-02/3 it feels like cheap toy.

[Rookie Rabbit]

Thank you all so much for your replies, this helps me out tremendously!

 

Some follow up remarks and questions:

- BBX (@Twinfan, @BuggyDad): In terms of looks, one of my favourites! Therefore, the "retro negatives" would be no downside for me. Limited tyre choice, is, however (although given how successful the car seems to be, more tyres may become available). What does "BBug" me, however, is the price. By the time I have added an ESC, a low profile servo and a motor (did I understand Tamiya's information correctly as in no standard silver can or Torque Tuned motor etc. can be fitted?), I could easily get two other kits for the same money. Looking at its bodywork, I assume it is rather hard to clean?

- GF-01, G6-01, Blackfoot, Monster Beetle, WR (@Gebbly, @markbt73, @Kowalski86): To be perfectly honest, I am not a fan of those kind of "big wheel first" cars. Although by industry standards Tamiya cars are no racing cars, as a real life petrolhead, I prefer "high performance off road racers" (as the Hornet was called, if I recall correctly). Fitting those kind of wheels to a buggy may be an interesting option, however.

- Sandviper DT-02 (@JimBear, @skom25): It's very high up my list, as a DT-02 would be "natural progression" for the solid axle buggies. Plus I see some general layout similarities to the racing buggies of that time. The only downside for me is the somewhat generic Sand Viper body. In that respect, vintage models are perhaps more interesting. I'd much prefer a Super Fighter rerelease or a body swap. Are there any interesting options available?

Is the Blitzer Beetle a decent alternative to the DT-02, given their similar basic layout?

As for the DT-03, I strongly dislike its looks. What hop ups does the DT-02 require which the DT-03 does not?

- polycarbonate bodies (@BuggyDad, @Kowalski86): That's important information. As I haven't experienced a catastrophic break of the ABS body (yet), and many used polycarbonate bodies look rather ... used, I was fearful of cracks.

- 4WD (@Kowalski86): That's interesting information on tyre wear; I was wondering how this may play out. I just realised most Tamiya buggies do not have a centre differential, which means power is still transferred to the ground in case one rear wheel has lost its grip, but both front wheels still grip. In said case, a 2WD buggy would be stuck. A 4WD should only be stuck when a wheel of each axle has lost its grip (unless it has a locking differential)?

- Boomerang - Thunderdragon (@alvinlwh, @Kowalski86): I thought of the Thundershot as the last of the Boomerang line, and its rather cheap, too. And "unique". The Terra Scorcher is a great hint,  not a buggy I thought of before, and perhaps the best looking out of the bunch (although more expensive than the Thundershot right now). Am I right in assuming the DF-01 Manta Ray is a natural evolution of that line of buggies? How does it compare?

- Wild One (@markbt73): the Wild One is, outside of the SRBs, one of the most interesting early Tamiya buggies to me, although I am not in love with its "military design". I read somewhere that it had a weakness in the chassis?

- TT-02B (@skom25, @Kowalski86). That's good to know. I assume a Manta Ray would be the better option for a similar price? Is soft plastic a bad thing? Judging by my DT-01, the softer wishbones held up well to accidents, whereas the more solid damper bridge broke.

 

Best,

Rookie Rabbit

[JimBear]

@Rookie Rabbit - the Blitzer is basically a DT-02 with a Beetle body. Other options are the Holiday Buggy and as you mention, the Super Fighter GR (you'd have to source a body on the 'Bay, etc). Thinking of that, I would guess the Mad Fighter body would be possible to fit, but let the more experienced have their say on that. Another one is the Stadium Blitzer (also used on the CR-01 Rock Socker) if you like a truck version.

[BuggyDad]

Yeah the Blitzer would probably be a good option for you too. As @JimBear says it's quite like a DT-02 in principle. It's a different chassis though - doesn't share any parts with the DTs. It's based on the Falcon chassis although the only part it shares with that is the tub. There are a few models in this style, essentially stock buggies with truck wheels and different bodies. See also Aqroshot. If you want to go a bit freestyle with bodies then you can achieve that format off probably any buggy. But in any case the BB is tough and inexpensive - it's a decent option. I am in the process of making one into a Stadium Blitzer, which is little more than changing to a polycarbonate truck body.

Drives pretty well IMO, although I have messed with the shocks quite a bit and heavily modified the steering on mine. It suffers from crazy bump steer as stock. I never drove it pure stock. 

On BBX, I guess with its cage it would be a bit harder to clean well than some simpler cars but I can't say I've really noticed, since I only really clean as necessary, not aiming for anything sparkling, and I haven't used this in wet mud. 

Yup the BBX is pricey but if you get a decent deal I don't think it's worse value than some much cheaper stuff because it is much higher quality and includes bearings, good hardware, CVDs etc. plus it's so much less likely to break. On cheaper kits you can soon double the kit price with a combination of minor upgrades and a couple of crash replacement parts. I don't think you need any hop ups for a BBX. Maybe just a pinion and I'd add a 51mm piece of aluminium M3 threaded spacer to link the rear shock tops for stiffness. I fitted a slipper but I intend to remove it - I think it's pointless for this kind of running. I guess this opinion is also linked to my tending to use non-stock electronics for everything anyway so cheap kit ESCs and silver cans tend to go unused. 

[Kowalski86]

30 minutes ago, Rookie Rabbit said:

Am I right in assuming the DF-01 Manta Ray is a natural evolution of that line of buggies? How does it compare?

The DF-01 does have some similarities, it's a cheap kit iirc but you'll need an aluminum motor mount, bearings, pinion, and a sturdier driveshaft. It's an old design with a handful of faults but I'd take it over a TT02.

[JimBear]

I was under the (false) impression that the Blitzer actually was a DT-02 version - thanks @BuggyDad - I stand corrected.

[Rookie Rabbit]

Thank you all once again!

 

- Blitzer Beetle (@JimBear, @BuggyDad): I really like the Blitzer Beetle, as it seems like a more modern and usable iteration of the Sand Scorcher. But does the body hold up? I read there is an easy fix for the bump steer (inverting the front uprights)?

I struggle like Truggies in general, perhaps they are not "race looking" enough for my liking. Just as the Holiday Buggy. I fear a twenty year old Super Fighter body may have deteriorated in plastic quality by now.

- BBX (@BuggyDad) : I fear you are right, one has to "pay twice" sometimes; all else being equal higher than the TD-2 and possibly the TD-4 as well (which are of similar quality, I understand). Which motor did you use?

- DF-01 (@Kowalski86): it seems like the best for 4WD choice, then, assuming Thunder Shot, etc. share the same weaknesses. I'm still not a fan of the Manta Ray body, however. By the way, are 4WD cars louder than 2WD ones?

 

Best,

Rookie Rabbit

 

PS:

Your posts are now "liked"; I forgot previously.

[Tamiyastef]

After more than 7 years I still enjoy my Traxxas (yeah I know) Stampede 4x4. In the beginning, I had to get used to the idea of the more open drive train on these compared to the Tamiya's and Kyosho's I owned before but now I can say it works.  It's actually only the second spur gear I'm using right now and the slipper has been rebuild only once, just like the vxl motor.

It's fun to run on whatever terrain you put it on and is really something else than the Fighter RX. It's another budget. I have no own experience with it but the Arma Gorgon gets good reviews.

[BuggyDad]

1 hour ago, Rookie Rabbit said:

Which motor did you use?

On both my BBX and TD4 (and most of my other cars too) I have a 10.5T TBLM brushless motor. It's said to be slower than good current 10.5T motors but I think it has about the right power for my application and I liked its bullet connectors and (sadly no longer) <£40 price tag from Plaza Japan. Next time I need a motor I'll probably look elsewhere though, driven by price.

1 hour ago, Rookie Rabbit said:

I really like the Blitzer Beetle, as it seems like a more modern and usable iteration of the Sand Scorcher. But does the body hold up?

I haven't ever used the body so I don't know first hand, sorry. But, others certainly do give them plenty of running.

1 hour ago, Rookie Rabbit said:

I read there is an easy fix for the bump steer (inverting the front uprights)?

When I tried that I wasn't happy with it (mainly, it limited steering quite severely) so I went down a modification route. However, I am a constant tinkerer and sometimes just for the sake of it, so you might be happy. 

[Kowalski86]

2 hours ago, Rookie Rabbit said:

By the way, are 4WD cars louder than 2WD ones?

It depends on the 4wd and 2wd in question, with any RC it's usually the motor that is the loudest component.

[Saito2]

With the exception of the TT02B, I own all of the cars you had interest in. With consideration to where you are at in the hobby presently and your desired goals, I'll try to run through them.

DT02: The DT02 is a simple quick build that gives the benefit of superior handling over your Fighter Buggy RX. It is fairly straightforward both in building and setting up, not requiring the little "fixes" that many Tamiyas benefit from. Its pretty much buy it, build it, run it. While it will out-handle your current buggy it really won't go any places the your FB RX can't go already. Personally, its a good solid choice, but not of much interest to an old school die hard like myself.

BBX: Its a brilliant buggy and one Tamiya folk have probably been wishing for, for a long time. I also wouldn't recommend it as a 2nd build until you really enjoy the building/modelling aspect. Aside from the mentioned "extras" (low profile servo, ESC, specific motor etc,) it is a bit fiddly and the chassis is tight. If I wasn't looking for a little challange myself, the build would have been a bit annoying at times..

TD4: Great performer with better plastics like the BBX. Also totally unsuited to a 2nd build. Its also tight a and fiddly at times but also has annoying slop in places as well as using foam(!) to seal up the drivetrain. It has even more required "extras" than the BBX.

The Blitzer Beetle is an off shoot of the Bearhawk chassis. Its much like an earlier, slightly less advanced version of the DT02 chassis. While it does have a hardbody, its wide footprint keeps it very stable. The tires aren't much bigger than 2wd buggy tires so there isn't much gained in where it can go vs a 2wd buggy. Durable, fairly trouble-free and well-loved needing little more than bearings and a steel pinion.

There are 4 series of vintage 4wds:

Hotshot series (Hotshot, Super Shot, Boomerang, Bigwig, HS2 and Super Sabre

Thundershot series (Thundershot, Thunder Dragon, Terra Scorcher, Fire Dragon and new Saint Dragon)

Avante series (Avante, VQS, Egress, Avante 2001)

DF01 series (Manta Ray, Top Force, etc)

My pick currently in your situation is probably the Boomerang or Super Sabre (mechanically much the same.) With bearings and a steel pinion, they are pretty much ready to go. They are rugged for their era, a good build experience, will go places easier than a 2wd and have long wearing oval block tires. The Boomer was a first 4wd for many many people BITD. I also recommend the Hotshot 2 as a more personal favorite. While the radio gear can be a bit tighter to fit, the the buggy is overall more durable, has better detail and survives roll-overs better (with less body damage too) with its built in roll cage. It has some bumpsteer that the Boomerang does not, but I still prefer it. Honestly my pick of the whole list.

The Thundershots are good but recently have had issues with wishbones splitting easily on impact. They also have poor bevel gear moldings requiring much filing and trimming to get a smooth drivetrain.

Avante series are beautiful awesome machines but likely out of the scope of this discussion.

The DF01s are good and cheap but require some extras like the all-plastic gearset and a metal motor mount to fully sort them. Honestly, while superior performers, they are simply not built as ruggedly as the early Boomerangs were.

The Wild One is great but requires sorting out the diff which separates under load. Its not too delicate otherwise when driven with respect to its era.

The Sand Scorcher is truly a step back in time an is better purchased to experience the feel of building and driving those early cars vs a 2nd car build.

[Gebbly]

8 hours ago, Saito2 said:

in your situation is probably the Boomerang or Super Sabre

Great comparison @Saito2, thank you. Most opinions I have read on these forums about the Boomerang seem to suggest it is pretty bullet proof. Another handy read regarding something that does not need fettling with before running would be the handy discussion in

 

[Rookie Rabbit]

Once again, thanks to all of your for your thoughts and answers!

- Traxxas Stampede (@Tamiyastef): This car seems to be quite good! I would miss the build experience, however, and unfortunately they look too brutal for my liking. It's the same for modern real life cars.

- BBX, TD4, Avante Series (@BuggyDad, @Saito2): That is quite the increase in price for this motor, and a reason why I, only knowing the current price, haven't looked at this motor. It is really interesting to hear about the build as well. In general, I am ok with buying two cars for the price of (a more upmarket) one, as long as the cheaper one doesn't have ten necessary upgrades).

- Blitzer Beetle (@BuggyDad, @Saito2, @Kowalski86): This car really sounds like a solid choice, with a more characterful body. And are the tyres durable, or is there a durable replacement available? May I ask what happened to your Falcon, Kowalski86, mentioned in the thread linked below ("The only models that I know of that don't "just work", are the ORV monsters, the MF-01X, and the MB-01. Though...let's not talk about my Falcon.")?

And is the DT-02, as a more modern, sensible, platform, better in terms of bump steer?

- 4WD (@Kowalski86): This is great to hear (pun intended). My DT-01 turned out to be rather noisy, even after I replaced the worn aluminium pinion gear with a steel one. 

- Sand Scorcher, Wild One (@Saito2): While I really like the Rough Rider and the Sand Scorcher, they really seem too dated for my use. As is the Wild One with its differential issues, it seems.

- Vintage 4WD (@Saito2, @Gebbly): The fine differences is what makes this so interesting for me, e. g. I never thought of the Hotshot's roll cage, or heard of the Thundershots' weaknesses (bevel gear, wishbones, A5 part). With these buggies, I would avoid the front shock tower (my DT-01's only plastic failure so far) failing, too  

 

Best,

Rookie Rabbit

[BuggyDad]

On bump steer, it's a steering/suspension geometry imperfection the like of which many casual runners wouldn't be bothered about. I just mentioned it because it's a thing on that particular chassis. Other similar compromises exist across the range. So whether it concerns you is really down to whether such details and tinkering interest you, I think. The DT-03 doesn't really suffer from it so I'm guessing the DT-02 will be much better than the BB in this regard with its longer arms. 

The Falcon had significant weaknesses that the BB doesn't have, despite sharing the same tub. Its front bulkhead and shock towers created weaknesses and its rear trailing arm suspension was a bit troublesome with dogbones. All in all, despite these two cars being closely related, this means that one of them is remembered for its weaknesses (even though we love it) and the other one of Tamiya's tougher models. The only related strength mod I'd do on the BB is drill through the screw holes on the front of the tub and fit a long screw and nut in place of top and bottom self tappers to attach the front end. It's a 5 minute job for a good strength improvement. I've broken other bits too but then you're into another level of modification. 

I also have a Boomerang although mine is unfinished. I'd always wanted one and I'm looking forward to its completion and running it in the dirt. 

It sounds to me like you're quite into the build and details and will build a few more, in which case there's really something to be said for variety. 4wd is different and the HS series iconic, as well as the Boomerang's robustness, all positives for a Boomer or similar. It has its performance downsides in keeping with the age of its design, in drivetrain inefficiency and some more little steering oddities, but these things are part of the fun too.

[Howards]

11 hours ago, Saito2 said:

TD4: Great performer with better plastics like the BBX. Also totally unsuited to a 2nd build. Its also tight a and fiddly at times but also has annoying slop in places as well as using foam(!) to seal up the drivetrain. It has even more required "extras" than the BBX.

TD4 has got to be the most misunderstood kit in Tamiya's lineup. I agree that the build is 'involved' and the intention is club racer not runner basher. Some slop is intentional - notably, the lateral diff slop - the rest in the suspension you shim out.  The foam thing? Typically there's no sealing on race cars but I concede maybe Tamiya could have done better there. If you were running it with a mild brushed motor I don't think there's a must-have for it other than a low profile servo. You would need a 2.5mm and 3mm thread forming tap for the build though.

Obvs as soon as you fit a 5.5 brushless you'll need metal bevel gears, UJs, diff upgrades, slipper etc but that kinda comes with the territory. 

I think it's fair choice at the current pricing.