Which Legendary for a runner

[ad456]

I’ve taken the notion that I’d like one of the Kyosho rere buggies. They have the old school cool and, for the most part, they escape the hop-up trap. This isn’t a right now purchase but more forward planning. 
 

I’ve whittled the choice down to the Turbo Scorpion or the Javelin but which one? Anyone owners run either of these regularly and could help me decide? I’ll likely be running on grass, beach, dirt and streets. Motor wise it’ll be a brushed setup or mild brushless as I don’t want to overpower and ruin them. 
 

And yes both are best and I will likely get both but one at a time!😂

[Twinfan]

Of those two I'd say the Javelin as it's the more advanced buggy?

However, I think I'd want something more sealed if you're going to be running on those surfaces.  One of the Optimas with an additional undertray perhaps.

[Saito2]

The Turbo Scorpion is mechanically almost all metal. If you are considering beach running, its simpler construction would be far easier for tear down and cleaning. The plastic lower body tub and lexan upper body keep the radio gear fairly clean and out of harms way. The TS is a good performer, way more adept than a Tamiya SRB for instance.

The Javelin from the Optima series is slightly more evolved in the Kyosho timeline. While there's high quality reinforced plastics used in the suspension arms, belt guides and gearboxes, the chassis is still aluminum rails and plates like the earlier Scorpions. They are superb, durable performers. They are also more open to the elements as well as reasonably complex to tear down compared to either the older Scorpions or newer Optima Mids. Things had evolved to a more competitive slant with the Javelin/Optima, with less regard for sealing up and protecting the electronics like the Scorpions, which were more akin to earlier SRBs in that respect.

They both perform well and are built well (the Javelin in particular is quite solid) but if I chose one, I'd get the Javelin for the more engaging build and better performance while just avoiding the beach. If beach running was important, the Turbo Scorpion is the more practical choice.

[markbt73]

I have both a standard Scorpion and a Turbo Optima (basically the Javelin's mechanical twin), and they're both brilliant. The Scorpion would probably be better on the beach, because it's rear-heavy and 2WD, both of which seem to help on sand. And it's enclosed, as Saito2 mentioned.

The Javelin might be a better all-rounder for other places, because it uses standard 12mm hex hubs on all four corners, so changing to virtually any wheels/tires is easy.

Both are absolute gems on the workbench, extremely satisfying to build, and the parts fit and finish will amaze you if you're used to Tamiya wobbliness.

[ad456]

Thanks folks, I did think the beach would give a clear line for what to get, it’s a pretty big player in my running as there are tons of beaches here and it can be pretty rough on the wrong vehicle. I’ve been ragging my wild around for 7 years and it’s handled it like a boss but not everything would and I wasn’t sure how well sealed the chain system would be on the Javelin so will pay attention and just not use it there. There’s plenty of other running spots on the Island.

I think for now I’ll probably go for a Turbo Scorpion and save like mad for the Javelin as I do want a colour change and fancy adding the sway bars just because. I don’t think the Scorpion would need anything extra besides paint and electrics, is that a safe assumption?

I’m really looking for a depart from the Tamiya quality stuff and hoping the Kyosho’s do live up to the hype and I’m very excited to explore the designs and complexities.
 

@Twinfan, yeah the Optima body and tray would be a very sensible idea but the looks, while the among the best of the buggies, haven’t got the cage look that I crave.

@Saito2 everything you’ve said is pretty much what I’m thinking👌

@markbt73 Im very much looking forward to the bench parts of these more than any of the Tamiya kits I’ve built and glad to hear they are that much of a cut above👍

Unless I find some weird notion of self control I’ll probably get a Turbo Scorpion ordered tomorrow. 

Lastly, any tips on a servo weight and speed? I’m mainly used to building Clods and crawlers/scalers so usually looking at max kg instead of speed + kg so a bit unsure.

[markbt73]

I just use a basic Futaba S3004 (3003 plus ball bearings on the output shaft) in my Scorpion. It's plenty.

[Re-Bugged]

Javelin or Turbo Scorpion? There really is no right or wrong answer, you shouldn’t be disappointed with either.

   The Javelin was my first Kyosho build and was pure bliss. My only recommendation is to put a dob of locktite on the steering arm nut as mine came loose. That is the only drama I’ve had with it.
    The ESC space is tight no more height than the battery, 25mm from memory. So I run a 13.5t HW Justock combo without the fan and is all good. Just went up a tooth or 2 on the pinion. A middle of the road 13kg servo fitted, can’t remember the brand properly Power HD?
     I used to avoid the beach but it does go there now, and it was absolutely fine. (Which was great fun when it was wearing a Sand Scorcher body for a while)  It has never been a problem in the fine dust here either. All the drive train is still as smooth as the day I put it together.

  The Turbo Scorpion is just a luscious looking thing when it’s built. If you like the Wild One the you will love the TS. There is a bit more room for electric’s. I got a HW Max10 3300kv combo in there and works very well. A low profile 1251 Savox servo for this one. 
  I found the little aluminium U shape clamps that hold the front axle were a very tight fit, so gave them a touch with a file as not to break them. A common thing I believe.

  As I say you’ll be happy with either, and will more than likely end up with both anyway I did. I’m actually away this weekend and I’ve brought both with me 😎

 

 

[ad456]

Thanks to all for the help on this, TS has been dutifully ordered first thing this morning so it’s time to start stalking delivery people whilst trying to be frugal to get funds up for the Javelin in the new year. 
 

@Re-Bugged before I saw the pics I was thinking the bug body would look daft on a Javelin, alas I was quite wrong, looks good man! Nice running shots too👍 I can see the TS becoming the holiday runner for me too  

Super hyped to get building so that means I MUST paint the body FIRST so I can run it as soon as it’s built, and have to resist doing a custom paint job, I’m bad for trying to avoid box art😂

[Re-Bugged]

Excellent @ad456 👍🏻

Thanks on the Bug comments, I’ve been on the lookout for a Javelin/Optima chassis to make a more permanent one but nothing financially viable to just buying another full kit. But I’ve got a Terra Scorcher that I think I’ll do the same to instead. The rear motor helps in that it fills the void of the back of the body.

Enjoy the TS, add lights and run at night too 😉

[Wooders28]

On 8/28/2024 at 10:18 AM, ad456 said:

This isn’t a right now purchase but more forward planning

 

On 8/30/2024 at 3:46 PM, ad456 said:

TS has been dutifully ordered first thing this morning 

Hahaha, love this 😁

 

(Bit random, but), had a discussion with the guys at the club ,if we call them Kyosho 'Re Re' or the 'Legendary Serise', i went with the latter, as I don't think there's actually many parts on the cars, that are Re release, they're all new design, just made to look old! So modern car, with old school cool looks, you'll be getting more of the serise (currently pondering over the Optima Pro 🙄) 

[ad456]

@Re-Bugged Lights are a must, we have barely 5 1/2hrs light in the winter so I fit them to virtually everything.

@Wooders28 ya caught that then?😁 Yeah, I have more self control than I used to but still have a long way to go. The plan was to wait till October but it seems that my nature(read ADHD) took over😂

The forward planning part isn’t a lie though as I’m probably gonna have a good dude pick up the Javelin when he’s feeding his own RC habit in Hong Kong early next year.

The re-engineering is one of the major draws on this, with a full re-re you always inherit the same flaws but Kyosho seems to have been very forward thinking with these and honoured the original designs very well at the same time. I’m looking forward to not having to be so mindful when I’m driving like I am with the Wild One and the build looks like a pleasure.

The kit should be here Tuesday and I’ve got a 1080 Esc spare, Rx, servo and light controller set past for it. I’ve have a few old mod motors so must find something that will be ok in it, there’s 19tx4, a few 27t stock, an LRP touring car one and a Tamiya RZ. I’ve got a 3950kv brushless with esc not really being used but it’s crazy enough in my short course truck so might not be a very sane choice for this. 

[Wooders28]

31 minutes ago, ad456 said:

The re-engineering is one of the major draws

I've heard a few rumours, one that Kyosho never actually owned their own moulds, where tamiya did (being a major injection model, manufacturer), and after 30yrs, they'd all been destroyed by the company contracted to do it (gone out of business/taken over etc), another that they where destroyed in a fire. 

Either way, it's meant they're better than the other offerings....

 

33 minutes ago, ad456 said:

I’ve got a 3950kv brushless with esc not really being used but it’s crazy enough in my short course truck so might not be a very sane choice for this. 

I've the Ultima, and running a 10.5t (around 4500kv), and although if I set the punch to max, and whack full beans, the front end gets a little light (with the slipper backed off as much as a dare), it's perfectly drivable.

 

[Kowalski86]

3 hours ago, Wooders28 said:

I don't think there's actually many parts on the cars, that are Re release, they're all new design, just made to look old!

From my understanding, the Legendary series were designed at "Kingstree Neo" Taiwan by Kogawa. Kingstree Neo was a manufacturer who designed and produced RCs for many brands including HPI.

Tamiya designs a lot of their models in house (TRF aside), which is probably why their designs often have questionable decisions, or they're updates of bygone relics (Squash Van chassis, anything TT).

For off-roading on flat ground I generally prefer 2wd models, they're easier to service and more interesting to drive. 

[RustyHunter]

My wife’s Optima has a 4600kv, and the car handles it just fine. She isn’t able to use full speed often since it is so fast and gets a bit unsettled at those speeds, but the advantages in runtime and minimal maintenance over brushed are really nice.

[ad456]

So kit is home and I’m through the 2nd bag and this is such a great build. A few nice touches like the mammoth amount of stickers, box art is looking less likely all the time. I’m trying to drag out the build to an hour or so a night instead of a one session affair. Shocks tonight, they are tied with paint as most hated part😂. These do seem a bit more forgiving than most so small mercies. 
 

I’ve liberated the Max10 and 3950kv from my Short Course truck, a bit apprehensive on that but some expo will save me from killing it on the first run. I’ll try get some pics up when I’m back at the computer if my memory behaves. 

[Jourduson]

I have a Turbo Optima which I built up as a Javelin, an Ultima and a Tomahawk along side of a BBX, a Buggy Champ, a Fighting Buggy, a Wild One, a DT-03, and a RTR Sand Master for the Kids. All are runners.

Now concerning my maintenance experience after running on dirt, gravel, sand I've found that these following three are easiest to clean and check for wear, damage and then servicing: Top of the list is the Tomahawk. Because there is no tray or protection whatsoever very little grub gets caught up. A vacuum cleaner and brush do the trick. Second the Buggy Champ, whereas I have not tried to make the box water tight, just dust tight. Third place the Fighting Buggy.

All others have some sort of tray construction and collect stones and crud like dump trucks. I'm still shaking out little stones days later after the clean up and checkup/ servicing.

With the Turbo Optima/Javelin I did some trial runs without the aluminium under guard and had much less to clean up afterwards, although then the lower belt box is not protected.

My conclusion, the leaner and more open the chassis the easier the maintenance.

 

[JimBear]

On 9/1/2024 at 12:16 PM, Kowalski86 said:

From my understanding, the Legendary series were designed at "Kingstree Neo" Taiwan by Kogawa. Kingstree Neo was a manufacturer who designed and produced RCs for many brands including HPI.

That idea sounds plausible - the boxes that the Limited 60 years edition Ultima (30643) comes in are marked "Made in Taiwan". Perhaps it also fits into the possibilty that "moulds were lost" story. Maybe the originals were made by someone else, contract terminated and everything got thrown in the bin?

As an aside - does anyone know if the USA-1 also is a redesign? Every now and then I see the old version for sale, but I never dare to dig into something like that without knowing what is possible to replace.

[ad456]

The old USA-1 and the current one are very different. I’ve got the current one and it’s a “reskin” of the Mad Force series. It’s awesome but the only thing they share is the name. 

[JimBear]

20 hours ago, ad456 said:

The old USA-1 and the current one are very different.

Ahh, thanks - good to know. The new ones are outta my price league. But cool all the same.

[ad456]

It is a more expensive price now I think. I got mine for £450 from MB Models a couple of years ago. 
There a few guises, Mad Force/Crusher/Kruiser and FO-XX. You can grab any nitro version and covert them over pretty easily I think if that’s a more affordable entry, it offers some tinkering too if that’s an attraction. 
 

It’s a pretty good truck, I’ve had mine a couple of years and it’s my most run truck by far. I’ve killed the USA-1 body, had a FO-XX shell on it and now it’s in an old school Mad Force body. Doesn’t need much fixes to the design and doesn’t eat parts unless I get carried away with myself doing dumb stuff.

 

@Jourduson cheers for the insight, I did wonder if that tray would make things better or worse. That’s a nice sounding collection too. The BBX is the only other buggy that sticks on my buy radar these days. Until now I’ve only had the Wild One for buggies and found it collected stones like mad until I covered the chassis holes in the bottom and it changed the game a lot. Now that I’ve built my Scorpion I feel it should be on par or better than the wild one as the tub is pretty closed up. Time will tell. 
 

What a lovely build that was though. I got a bit into it and forgot to take any meaningful pictures. The shocks were a lot easier to build than some other designs and I didn’t make the usual mess with shock fluid. I’ve got the Drivers head left to paint whenever I get my hands on some primer but otherwise everything is done apart from a proper run. I wasn’t really liking the blue on the body so just masked and sprayed a similar pattern in black and went overboard with all the stickers, lol  
I have taken it up and down the street once to test and it feels like it should handle exactly as I hoped but I wasn’t brave enough to go jumping the speed bumps and scratch the bottom right out of it. I can’t wait to get a proper beach or grass/dirt run going.

[Jourduson]

1 hour ago, ad456 said:

What a lovely build that was though. I got a bit into it and forgot to take any meaningful pictures. The shocks were a lot easier to build than some other designs and I didn’t make the usual mess with shock fluid. I’ve got the Drivers head left to paint whenever I get my hands on some primer but otherwise everything is done apart from a proper run. I wasn’t really liking the blue on the body so just masked and sprayed a similar pattern in black and went overboard with all the stickers, lol  
I have taken it up and down the street once to test and it feels like it should handle exactly as I hoped but I wasn’t brave enough to go jumping the speed bumps and scratch the bottom right out of it. I can’t wait to get a proper beach or grass/dirt run going.

ad456, hi!

That is a truely beautiful Scorpion you built there. I even think the bucket lights suit it well on the roof. I always felt they are too big, but here..... perfect.

Did you chop the rear of the body? I'll be doing so when I build the rere Optima Pro and mount the wing instead, like you have done to give it that real vintage look.

Here are some pics of my Turbo Optima/Javelin. Nope, no Kyosho driver, the drivers don't inspire me, but Tamiyas do.

Yes, I do run it and crash it 😂

[silvertriple]

I see this topic, and I must say something : any Kyosho Legendary series is suitable for a runner...

You may head to few of my threads in the Kyosho corner to get details about them...

My first one was the Turbo Scorpion (My Turbo Scorpion - Kyosho - Tamiyaclub.com)

Then there was the Javelin (Kyosho Javelin - Legendary series - 30618 - Kyosho - Tamiyaclub.com), and the Turbo Optima (Kyosho Turbo Optima - Legendary series - 30619 - Kyosho - Tamiyaclub.com) and the (Kyosho 30615 - Tomahawk - Kyosho - Tamiyaclub.com). All of them are great offroad and solid cars. All of them runs and they run nicely.

I also built two Fantoms (Kyosho 30635 - Fantom EP-4WD - Kyosho - Tamiyaclub.com and Kyosho Fantom EP-4WD EXT Gold - 60th Anniversary - kit 30644 - Kyosho - Tamiyaclub.com) and I love them as well, running them on a track if pure pleasure...

Just few elements :

• check the instruction manual for the dimensions of the ESC (and servo for the Fantoms), otherwise you may have some difficulties to place them in the chassis. It's good that Kyosho indicates this in the manual.
• Don't use the black visor on the Kyosho helmet for the offroad cars. There is a face which only need to be painted. Head to my Kyosho Tomahawk thread to see how to build a perfect visor
• on the Turbo Optima and Javelin, think about the optional spur gear (OTW126) if you want to run a brushless motor. With a 13.5T and standard spur gear, the contact of the brushless motor are very close to the motor guard. The optional spur gear is much better in this case.

Hope it helps...

 

[ad456]

So time has passed now, I shamefully haven’t painted the head yet for some reason but hopefully soon as it looks plain dumb. I’ve only had a few packs through the car but am forcing myself to find a moment here and there to start actually driving my cars. I got a Radiomaster MT12 and it’s a massive upgrade from my GT3c that I’ve used the last decade almost. I swapped out the Flysky Rx for an Radiomaster Er4 and it really woke things up.  
The car is a blast to drive on every surface I’ve had it on, roads, beach, gravel annd short grass. I absolutely love it. Had it down the beach the other day and it plain ripped.

    

So naturally I got smashed with a dose of brutal impulse twinned with zero self control and have got a Javelin kit now.

The Javelin is a first for me on a few fronts, first 4wd buggy and first chain/belt chassis  it’s been an interesting build so far. I spend the last two evenings building and I’m down to stickers, shocks, electrics and paint to finish as of now. I’ll stick a 1060 and probably a silver can in it for now to test it but given how well the Scorpion took the 3950kv I’ve now got a 3600kv on order for this along with the OTW126 spur and OTW102 stabilizers. For a servo I just stole the PowerHD 9001 MG from my short course truck as it’s not been used in a long time. So this is where I’m at now, I’ll do the shocks tonight if I have time.

I opted for the belt for drive to save tearing it down and replacing the chain even though the chain looks really cool. With the car going brushless I thought the belt would be a better choice. I was a bit sceptical of the cover when I’ve seen it in pics but in the flesh it seems good and it’s a cool design to show off the chain that I didn’t use😂

I thought the wee R & L on the wheels was a cool touch, don’t know if I’ve seen that before. I can see me almost certainly getting the white cage and some other wheels to match it at some point. Maybe black or white pepper pots. 
 

I got away with my Lipo and it will only just squeeze in without bending things too much. I might be pushing my luck but time will tell....

Now I have some other painting to do the Scorpion’s driver might get paint soon!

[ad456]

I got the shocks built and threw a motor in and gave it a bench test and no crunchy sounds so that’s good. Decided that the car looked wrong without the tyre lettering so braved that and did some other sets at the same time and they were less fiddly than I thought it would be and completely fix the look. Decals on now and we’re waiting on the stabilisers and brushless coming on Tuesday or Wednesday 

Onto painting while I wait, I’ve got both the heads primered and the driver body nearly done, might finish them today or tomorrow. I need to print @silvertriple brackets for some LEDs and find another Rx switch, seems I’m running out of them.

[ad456]

Heads this morning, managed to crack both of them on the seam but I won’t see that when it’s flying past. Faces came out better than I expected and I’ve just remembered I’ll need to make visors too.