Silver Can vs Torque Tuned

[skom25]

Hi,

It will be bit different topic than you expect.

I have TT-02 with Torque Tuned motor and XV-01 with Silver Can. Both have more or less the same FDR.

I thought and read that Torque Tuned is just marginally better than standard Silver Can. However, in my case it is different.

Despite TT-02 drivetrain is probably less efficient than XV-01, it feels really fast and very "lively". Perfect for Racing by Post.

Silver Can is totally different. It feels slow, without "punch". There is no pleasure running it.

Is difference between mentioned two so big or there is something wrong with my Silver Can?

Both cars have HW1060 ESC. TT-02 has Deans battery connector, XV-01 Tamiya Plug, but I think it does not matter. I run both on NiMh.

[OoALEJOoO]

The above graph, taken from a Torque-Tuned box, shows the performance of the basic Tamiya motors. There is indeed more punch on the Torque-Tuned when compared to the Silver Can.

Comparing the Torque-Tuned with the Silver Can, you can see on the graph that for example at 10,000 rpm, their shaft torque is about 100 mNm and 80 mNm respectively. That's a 25% increase. At 15,000 rpm the Silver Can has very little torque left ~10mNm, while the Torque-Tuned can still produce about 40 mNm.

For the same FDR, the Torque-Tuned definitely feels punchier and will have a higher top-speed.

[alvinlwh]

Don't you have road tyres on your TT and rally on the XV? Their sizes are not the same and then the FDR is also not the same. 

[skom25]

No, tires are almost the same.

FDR is similar, because I have 22T pinion in both, but 68T spur in XV-01 and 70T in TT-02.

[CoolHands]

I think better motors just have more power - everywhere.

[skom25]

Yes, but I was not aware that difference will be so huge.

[MadAnt]

For what it is, the Torque Tuned motor is a peppy motor, almost matching the Sport Tuned motor and a 2S lipo battery really does wake it up. For certain cars in certain driving situations, like my my Grasshopper or a touring car on a small track, I'd say the Torque Tuned motor is the sweet spot.

[Losi XXT-CR]

3 hours ago, MadAnt said:

For what it is, the Torque Tuned motor is a peppy motor, almost matching the Sport Tuned motor and a 2S lipo battery really does wake it up. For certain cars in certain driving situations, like my my Grasshopper or a touring car on a small track, I'd say the Torque Tuned motor is the sweet spot.

I may have misread elsewhere, but isn't the Torque Tuned a 25 turn sealed motor and the Sport Tuned a 27 turn sealed motor with advanced timing? In which case, wouldn't the 25 turn motor generally outperform the 27 turn one?

[Twinfan]

The latest silver Sport Tuned is a genuine 23T motor I believe.

[alvinlwh]

4 hours ago, Losi XXT-CR said:

I may have misread elsewhere, but isn't the Torque Tuned a 25 turn sealed motor and the Sport Tuned a 27 turn sealed motor with advanced timing? In which case, wouldn't the 25 turn motor generally outperform the 27 turn one?

There was a myth about the ST being 27T for a long time but now Tamiya clearly states it is 23T on the box. 

Turns alone does not determine the power of anything. There are also other factors like coil thickness, magnet strength, brushes type, etc... For example, both ST and the Z's are 23T, yet the Z's are far better than the ST. 

[MadAnt]

6 hours ago, Losi XXT-CR said:

I may have misread elsewhere, but isn't the Torque Tuned a 25 turn sealed motor and the Sport Tuned a 27 turn sealed motor with advanced timing? In which case, wouldn't the 25 turn motor generally outperform the 27 turn one?

Like everyone has said, the Sport Tuned is a 23 turn motor. I own both Torque Tuned and the black can Sport Tuned motors, and from my experience, I can tell you the 25 turn Torque Tuned motor is just a little bit slower. 

[Losi XXT-CR]

9 hours ago, MadAnt said:

Like everyone has said, the Sport Tuned is a 23 turn motor. I own both Torque Tuned and the black can Sport Tuned motors, and from my experience, I can tell you the 25 turn Torque Tuned motor is just a little bit slower. 

Well yes, that makes sense and is essentially what I was saying, the lower turn motor is faster everywhere, all other things being equal. As for the Sport Tuned, I hadn't realised it was 23T, Google searching shows a lot of info saying 27T and advanced timing, which clearly isn't the case.

[Twinfan]

The earlier black can Sport Tuned was not labelled as 23T, and it seems Tamiya did change the spec of them over time.

Silver cans are all 23T, and labelled as such.

[alvinlwh]

8 hours ago, Twinfan said:

The earlier black can Sport Tuned was not labelled as 23T

 

10 hours ago, Losi XXT-CR said:

Google searching shows a lot of info saying 27T and advanced timing, which clearly isn't the case

According to someone who had actually opened one up, it is 23T.

https://fiveeight0sixsix.wordpress.com/2017/04/25/inside-the-tamiya-sport-tuned-motor/

 

[Pylon80]

Are we really back to a "how many turns is the Sport Tuned" thread? 😅

There seem to have been both kinds of motors over the years. Some people have opened them and counted 23t, others counted 27t. Meanwhile The Internet is too lazy or doesn't want to destroy a good motor to find the answer that applies to their own Sport Tuned. The fact that a Sport Tuned motor lasts so long doesn't help! I have a Sport Tuned motor and having been running other motors in the past 4 years it's just sitting there and it's still perfectly good... And I need it for my next F1 project. I feel that even if I opened it and found 27t people would still say "oh, it must be a knock off copy!" which makes the whole exercise pointless and wasteful.

Does it really matter in the end?

[Jonathon Gillham]

40 minutes ago, Pylon80 said:

Are we really back to a "how many turns is the Sport Tuned" thread? 😅

There seem to have been both kinds of motors over the years. Some people have opened them and counted 23t, others counted 27t. Meanwhile The Internet is too lazy or doesn't want to destroy a good motor to find the answer that applies to their own Sport Tuned. The fact that a Sport Tuned motor lasts so long doesn't help! I have a Sport Tuned motor and having been running other motors in the past 4 years it's just sitting there and it's still perfectly good... And I need it for my next F1 project. I feel that even if I opened it and found 27t people would still say "oh, it must be a knock off copy!" which makes the whole exercise pointless and wasteful.

Does it really matter in the end?

I have been reading this and thinking the same thing. I've seen both types opened and counted.

The best comparison I have seen was a few years ago and rather than just swap the silvercan, torque tuned and sport tuned out and do comparisons, they actually changed the gearing to match the FDR to the motor. They basically performed all the same which makes sense to me. The motors are all basic closed cans which work really well in a Tamiya in the back yard, there isn't going to be that much difference between them. The biggest difference I've noticed is going from an old worn out one to a brand new one.

[skom25]

There is not too much difference between ST and TT, but Silver Can definitely feels slow.

[alvinlwh]

1 hour ago, Pylon80 said:

even if I opened it and found 27t people would still say "oh, it must be a knock off copy!

I shall wait for you to open it and find 25T!

[Pylon80]

Anybody wants to discuss lipo fires instead? Or universals, grease vs no grease?

[alvinlwh]

23 minutes ago, Pylon80 said:

Anybody wants to discuss lipo fires instead? Or universals, grease vs no grease?

I think the topic of the week is asbestos. 😏

[skom25]

6 hours ago, Pylon80 said:

Anybody wants to discuss lipo fires instead? Or universals, grease vs no grease?

Machine screws vs Self Tappers!

[El Gecko]

On 10/5/2024 at 4:06 PM, skom25 said:

There is not too much difference between ST and TT, but Silver Can definitely feels slow.

Because the silvercan is slow! I look at it as a basic motor that will get the model moving once it's complete, but IIRC it's intended to be a "throwaway" item tossed into the garbage when it dies, or simply used for slow-speed "models in motion" type driving.

Any cars that I drive on a normal basis have open-endbell motors so they can be serviced from time to time. And so I can replace the bushings with bearings if necessary. Even slow motors (perhaps especially slow motors) benefit greatly, for example a cheapo black can 27t with ball bearings will vastly outperform any silvercan, and won't suck as much power or get as hot as a lower-turn motor.

I have one ST and it's fast, but it screeches like a banshee at certain RPMs because there's something wrong with the bushings (even after oiling them before every run).

[Losi XXT-CR]

On 10/5/2024 at 8:17 PM, Pylon80 said:

Are we really back to a "how many turns is the Sport Tuned" thread? 😅

There seem to have been both kinds of motors over the years. Some people have opened them and counted 23t, others counted 27t. Meanwhile The Internet is too lazy or doesn't want to destroy a good motor to find the answer that applies to their own Sport Tuned. The fact that a Sport Tuned motor lasts so long doesn't help! I have a Sport Tuned motor and having been running other motors in the past 4 years it's just sitting there and it's still perfectly good... And I need it for my next F1 project. I feel that even if I opened it and found 27t people would still say "oh, it must be a knock off copy!" which makes the whole exercise pointless and wasteful.

Does it really matter in the end?

Yes I think it matters. A 27t with advanced timing isn't likely to go as well as a 25t motor, but a 23t will go better than either. So it matters if upgrading. Sport Tuned would certainly seem better value than Torque Tuned. given it is a lower turn motor. If it was (as in currently available ones) still a 27t turn motor, then the Torque Tuned would likely be a better motor to swap in. Also important if you plan to run 3S on any of them

On 10/5/2024 at 9:02 PM, Jonathon Gillham said:

I have been reading this and thinking the same thing. I've seen both types opened and counted.

The best comparison I have seen was a few years ago and rather than just swap the silvercan, torque tuned and sport tuned out and do comparisons, they actually changed the gearing to match the FDR to the motor. They basically performed all the same which makes sense to me. 

Not sure I follow? FDR is gearing. Motors all start at 0rpm, but lower turn generally spin faster. Given the same gearing the lower turn motor should accelerate faster with a slightly higher top speed, due to the motor spinning higher rpm. If you lower the gearing to make the top speed the same you'll get a lot faster acceleration. If you up the gearing (taller) so that acceleration is the same, the lower turn motor will have much higher top speed.

[alvinlwh]

29 minutes ago, El Gecko said:

Because the silvercan is slow!

Depends on your definition of slow. 

However, that also reveals its throw away nature you described. It melted itself after a few packs. Still it was fun getting there. 😁

[Losi XXT-CR]

1 minute ago, alvinlwh said:

Depends on your definition of slow. 

However, that also reveals its throw away nature you described. It melted itself after a few packs. Still it was fun getting there. 😁

If you swapped the silvercn for a 23t sport tuned motor and all else being the same, you should have better acceleration and higher top speed still. The extra power may also allow an increase in gearing too.