Traxxas recall

[No Slack]

Traxxas has a recall in Europe because of asbestos material in slipper clutches. This is new to me but be careful if you have a car with the slipper. 

https://traxxas.com/recall/eu-slipper-pad-recall

[Kowalski86]

Iirc, people down under in Australia have been going through that same recall for a while.

Here in the US there hasn't been a recall, there's been an effort to stomp out the use of asbestos but our niche hobby has slipped underneath the radar.

Here's my big question, Traxxas has been using that same antiquated slipper system since 2009 iirc, so why is there only a recall recently?

[kontemax]

1 hour ago, No Slack said:

Traxxas has a recall in Europe because of asbestos material in slipper clutches. This is new to me but be careful if you have a car with the slipper. 

https://traxxas.com/recall/eu-slipper-pad-recall

This is ridiculous.
How many asbestos can be in a model slippery clutch?


Max

[Pylon80]

Warning. The Traxxas slipper is known to the state of California to bla bla bla cancer bla bla bla death to your loved ones bla bla bla lawsuit bla bla bla money.

[skom25]

34 minutes ago, kontemax said:

This is ridiculous.
How many asbestos can be in a model slippery clutch?


Max

If you consider that clutch wears and creates dust, which you can inhale during service, it does not sound like most healthy thing in the world.

It is not about "how many", but "why".

Asbestos is known as very dangerous material for a long time.

[MadAnt]

As someone who has dealt with the 3 shoe/pad slipper clutch system from Traxxas many times when I worked at a hobby shop, I can tell you they suck. Tuning is awful, so they just wear out and the old previous design that many other brands still use was superior. I reckon that Traxxas might do a short run of cars with the aluminum slipper pads(which is worse for performance) until they use some new "safer" material. Although, I could be wrong, it might the cheaper route to go temporarily.

I have an old Traxxas Rustler, it does not have the 3 shoe/pad slipper clutch and it never will. 

[Kowalski86]

25 minutes ago, MadAnt said:

As someone who has dealt with the 3 shoe/pad slipper clutch system from Traxxas many times when I worked at a hobby shop, I can tell you they suck. Tuning is awful, so they just wear out and the old previous design that many other brands still use was superior. I reckon that Traxxas might do a short run of cars with the aluminum slipper pads(which is worse for performance) until they use some new "safer" material. Although, I could be wrong, it might the cheaper route to go temporarily.

I have an old Traxxas Rustler, it does not have the 3 shoe/pad slipper clutch and it never will. 

That's an interesting note on the old slipper clutch design, my only gripe with the old setup is that you can't gear it for torque like the modern setup.

Would you say that the Hot Racing heavy duty clutch is a worthwhile upgrade?

https://www.amainhobbies.com/hot-racing-super-duty-small-slipper-system-for-traxxas-2wd-hratrx15gx06/p649988?gad_source=1&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIx-eD0YPziAMVpUP_AR3WHiwNEAQYAiABEgI9dPD_BwE#tab-compat

[kontemax]

5 hours ago, skom25 said:

If you consider that clutch wears and creates dust, which you can inhale during service, it does not sound like most healthy thing in the world.

It is not about "how many", but "why".

Asbestos is known as very dangerous material for a long time.

Every time you brake with your car or your motorbike, every time you cut some wood, every time a plane flyby up you, every time yom make anything you create dust, frequencies, liquids, materials and you breath powders, particles, smokes, chemicals and gases that can potentially poison you.
Every time you go in your cellar you breathe a radioactive gas called Radon (86 Rn) that exhale from the ground.
And yes, also the wood powder gives cancer.
The problem is not what but how much.


Max

[Thommo]

So does going out into the sun and eating burnt toast….

[alvinlwh]

6 hours ago, Kowalski86 said:

Here's my big question, Traxxas has been using that same antiquated slipper system since 2009 iirc, so why is there only a recall recently?

It is not the design but the material. I work in health and safety and receive such bulletins all the time. Basically, a manufacturer just get the cheapest material without testing it for ACM (Asbestos Containing Material) and just used it into their products. One good example is the rope seals around wood burners. They should be fibre glass now but you still get ropes made of or contaminated with asbestos. Another example is the insulation in an oven/fridge,should be ACM free but every now and then, some got sold. 

Now, quite often asbestos are great at the job they are needed for, but not so good for the health of the persons using it, which is why they often sneaked in as things made from them have excellent performance compared to safe materials. 

[alvinlwh]

13 minutes ago, kontemax said:

Every time you brake with your car or your motorbike, every time you cut some wood, every time a plane flyby up you, every time yom make anything you create dust, frequencies, liquids, materials and you breath powders, particles, smokes, chemicals and gases that can potentially poison you.
Every time you go in your cellar you breathe a radioactive gas called Radon (86 Rn) that exhale from the ground.
And yes, also the wood powder gives cancer.
The problem is not what but how much.


Max

It is not about whataboutism. It is about the fact that the import, sales and transfer of asbestos is illegal in most countries. For example, in the EU (which Italy is still a part of I believe), Annex 1 of Directive 76/769/EEC on dangerous substances and preparations banned from January 1, 2005, the introduction of new applications of asbestos cement materials, friction products, seals and gaskets. 

[Kowalski86]

53 minutes ago, alvinlwh said:

Now, quite often asbestos are great at the job they are needed for, but not so good for the health of the persons using it, which is why they often sneaked in as things made from them have excellent performance compared to safe materials. 

"Cheap" sounds about right for Traxxas.

Here's my question, as one of the few Traxxas owners that services his RCs, how dangerous is it to have asbestos slipper pads?

I've been in plenty of old buildings and around countless old cars with asbestos brake pads. I'm hoping that a few bits of a toy car won't hurt me.

[MadAnt]

7 hours ago, Kowalski86 said:

That's an interesting note on the old slipper clutch design, my only gripe with the old setup is that you can't gear it for torque like the modern setup.

Would you say that the Hot Racing heavy duty clutch is a worthwhile upgrade?

https://www.amainhobbies.com/hot-racing-super-duty-small-slipper-system-for-traxxas-2wd-hratrx15gx06/p649988?gad_source=1&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIx-eD0YPziAMVpUP_AR3WHiwNEAQYAiABEgI9dPD_BwE#tab-compat

It depends on the material used, but there seems to more surface area based on the photo. Usually more material = better grip and heat dissipation.

[Blista]

3 hours ago, Thommo said:

So does going out into the sun and eating burnt toast….

That's why I always eat burnt toast indoors.

[skom25]

4 hours ago, kontemax said:

Every time you brake with your car or your motorbike, every time you cut some wood, every time a plane flyby up you, every time yom make anything you create dust, frequencies, liquids, materials and you breath powders, particles, smokes, chemicals and gases that can potentially poison you.
Every time you go in your cellar you breathe a radioactive gas called Radon (86 Rn) that exhale from the ground.
And yes, also the wood powder gives cancer.
The problem is not what but how much.


Max

This is not excuse, to use dangerous material in TOYS.

When last time your face was close to brake pads during braking?

During service, you are very close to that material and can easily breathe dust.

It does not matter that there are many other things which can cause cancer or death. You just do not want to have contact with next one, just because someone ignored rules.

[Mad Ax]

I replaced the 3-pad clutch in my second-hand E-maxx last year.  Pretty sure it's one of the ones listed, but I'll have to check, it's an ancient brushless model.  I will already have opened the cover and exposed myself and my workshop to dust, although I don't recall it being hugely dusty when I took the cover off.  The new pads have had very little use, since I don't really drive it that much.

I have no official data but I'm not going to panic unduly.  It's not like I can do much about it anyway - the UK is no longer in the EU, so presumably that means we're free to poison ourselves as much as we like.  I can't see a recall option for the UK.

[scoobybooster]

Probably both are true, it's a typical thing of over-regulation in this world. People think they have to counter common sense with laws, as the general stupidity has long since progressed unstoppably. Of course asbestos is dangerous, of course it has been banned for years. On the other hand, the relationship between quantity and use is still decisive.

Watch out the next time you eat tree nuts - they naturally contain hydrogen cyanide - one of the deadliest poisons of all. 
However, you should be able to eat about 5 kg of nuts in one go before it becomes seriously critical. This is probably why the consumption of tree nuts is still permitted with impunity.

[skom25]

I have not said anywhere, that Traxxas clutch will kill or harm you instantly. There are many things which can cause health issues, but the is no reason to have next one.

Most of you think about one service per year at home. It is not an issue at all.

However, what about people who work in Hobby Shops and replace clutch everyday?

BTW: if I am not wrong, there is one main issue with asbestos. Once you inhale it, it will stay forever in your lungs. It is bit different hazard than eating burnt toast or nuts.

 

[alvinlwh]

7 hours ago, Kowalski86 said:

Here's my question, as one of the few Traxxas owners that services his RCs, how dangerous is it to have asbestos slipper pads?

Really impossible to say. There are so many factors to consider, type of asbestos, amount/concentration of it in the pad, age of material, your health, do you smoke, your environment, it can go on forever. 

Personally, I recently wrapped an exhaust of a shed heater with the  what is claimed to be heat resistant fiberglass wrap, ordered from Aliexpress. This kind of lagging is the worst type if it contains asbestos. I work on it outdoors, upwind and with gloves on (to not spread it via my fingers elsewhere) and only a COVID mask.

However, that is what I do personally. Professionally, due to regulations, laws, professional standards and most importantly, boss watching, I wear this. 

I can go in forever about Risk Assessment and Method Statement (RAMS) but bottom line is, dust resulting from friction is more dangerous than making a clean cut in a brand new material. So what I am trying to say is, you decide on your own level of risk personally, full on protection or not. However legally, companies (including that T) have to recall products containing asbestos when they become aware of it. 

3 hours ago, Mad Ax said:

the UK is no longer in the EU, so presumably that means we're free to poison ourselves as much as we like.  I can't see a recall option for the UK.

Unfortunately no. Asbestos had been banned from the market in the UK since 1999 and nothing had changed there. Further more, UK has a habit of adopting EU's nanny state safety regulations. Think headphones volume limits and cars auto speed limiter for example. 

2 hours ago, skom25 said:

I have not said anywhere, that Traxxas clutch will kill or harm you instantly. There are many things which can cause health issues, but the is no reason to have next one.

Most of you think about one service per year at home. It is not an issue at all.

However, what about people who work in Hobby Shops and replace clutch everyday?

BTW: if I am not wrong, there is one main issue with asbestos. Once you inhale it, it will stay forever in your lungs. It is bit different hazard than eating burnt toast or nuts.

You are absolutely right. It is all a matter of personal risk management, how much you are willing to take. However, the law in (most) countries said no sales or transfer (meaning free gifting) of asbestos means just that and companies have to comply. This debate is just as annoying as the lipo debates. Some just like to go down the route of whataboutism. We are not taking about nuts or sun or toast here. Asbestos is dangerous, it is a fact. Lipo is dangerous, it is also a fact. It is how the danger is managed is the main question here, and for asbestos, (most) governments had decided to outright ban it. 

[mtbkym01]

I actually know about this well, it hasn’t only caught Traxxas out. Its been found in diff gaskets as well of other well know brands, which have all been rectified now. In Australia, Asbestos is a prohibited import. Meaning it must have zero asbestos. It’s amazing how many things have asbestos in them, because it is cheap and very effective at its job. It is safe if it is not disturbed, but those fibres are killers if they get in your lungs. Im pretty sure, in the US, there is a margin which will still count as no asbestos, like a couple % or something. There are products available that do exactly the same job, but do not contain asbestos.

[MadAnt]

I'm sure one cancer causing material or ingredient will just be replaced with another cancer causing material or ingredient, lol, that's the way things have been done for decades.

[alvinlwh]

7 minutes ago, MadAnt said:

I'm sure one cancer causing material or ingredient will just be replaced with another cancer causing material or ingredient, lol, that's the way things have been done for decades.

That is exactly what is happening right now. They replaced AIB (Asbesto Insulation Boards) with MDF (Medium Density Fiber boards) and now MDF is said to be the next asbestos (different cancer though). Furthermore, hardwood and softwood dust are also known to cause cancer. 

[MadAnt]

1 hour ago, alvinlwh said:

That is exactly what is happening right now. They replaced AIB (Asbesto Insulation Boards) with MDF (Medium Density Fiber boards) and now MDF is said to be the next asbestos (different cancer though). Furthermore, hardwood and softwood dust are also known to cause cancer. 

People are living longer than ever, but the health police(that's what I'm calling them) keep coming up with new ways to scare everyone from the things we have been living with our whole lives. Lol, it's that silly when you think about.

Now of course I don't deny some things are bad for health like asbestos and lead and what-not, but people do need to use common sense.

[No Slack]

At work we have team that investigate everything with asbestos. They tell me the fibres (dust) is very dangerous. Only some particles is enough to become ill. Problem is it can take a very long time before someone contained with asbestos will develop cancer.

My brother in law has asbestos cancer and it took about 20 years before he became ill. And I can tell it is a nasty illness. 

[Mad Ax]

There's a lot of talk about "common sense" here but I expect very few of us actually have the details to hand to allow us to come up with a margin that we're happy to operate in.  For example:

• how much asbestos is contained in the slipper pads?
• how much asbestos do you need to be exposed to in a single instance for it to be considered a significant risk?
  • what does significant risk mean?  type of cancer, severity of cancer, likelihood of cancer?
  • what's an insignificant risk, in terms of cancer?
• are there different types of asbestos with different exposure risks?
• do we know which type is present in the slipper pads?
• how many times per year will we replace slipper pads, and how does this affect our risk?

I don't have this info.  I don't even know where to find this info - apart from calling an expert in asbestos removal, who will almost certainly say "if you have to ask this question, the answer is no."

Combine this with optimism bias (the old "it won't happen to me") plus the fact that a handful of people on the internet (most of whom don't have any more access to the above data than I do) say they'll keep doing it, and suddenly common sense really doesn't look at all sensible.