17.5T brushless vs Torque Tuned

[Losi XXT-CR]

So I've just finished up building my Fire Dragon. It came with the TBLE-04s ESC. I know its not great, but just trying to make use of it and watch the pennies a bit.

I fitted it with a Torque Tuned motor that came with another kit I got recently. I opted to go with the 17 tooth pinion, the largest the stock motor mount lets you run.

And tbh it actually goes pretty well. But a bit more zip wouldn't go amiss. The TBLE-04s claims to handle to 25T brushed (aka the Torque Tuned), but makes special mention of the Sport Tuned also working. A bit of a Google and there is info saying not all 23 turn brushed motors will work, best to opt for the sport Tuned. I don't feel that a Sport Tuned motor would be money well spent personally considering I'm already running the Torque Tuned.

However, the ESC also claims to handle down to 15.5T brushless motors. Sadly it seems pretty much only Tamiya and maybe Kyosho offers these and they cost almost as much as buying the entire Fire Dragon kit did. So I won't be going this route either.

But I can buy a 17.5T senssored brushless motor for around £30-35 delivered.

 

So my question is, how does a 17.5T brushless compare to a 23T brushed Torque tuned motor? Would it be an actual upgrade, or would it just be £35 wasted on a motor that ultimately would perform about the same?

 

Another Google suggests the Torque Tuned does 16,000rpm no load on 7.2v, while a KV calculator says a 2300kv (17.5T) brushless would be 16650rpm on 7.2v, I run 2S LiPo, so technically higher voltage, but that is true for either motor.

 

Thoughts?

[Twinfan]

I've run the 15.5T Tamiya brushless motor in a couple of cars and found it about the same as a Torque Tuned. With the tall gearing of the Dragon it should perform a bit better but maybe not night and day faster.

I would expect a £35 17.5T to be similar in performance, so I would say don't waste your money.

I would go for a 13.5T and a cheap 30mm(?) fan for the ESC if you want a decent upgrade in speed.

[magpie]

hello the first brushless motor combo i run in my thunder shot was 17.5 it was on 2s as well,think it was sky rc combo,not very fast but lasted much longer than nimh.as above 13.5 combo should be good.

[Losi XXT-CR]

Just now, magpie said:

hello the first brushless motor combo i run in my thunder shot was 17.5 it was on 2s as well,think it was sky rc combo,not very fast but lasted much longer than nimh.as above 13.5 combo should be good.

Will the ESC survive 13.5T? That is reasonably far above its rating. The TBE-04s also only has a 1.5A BEC. And already struggles with the steering servo. I'm not sure adding a fan for it to power too would be a great idea. Eventually I'll get a better ESC, but didn't want to spend that much right now. I have a TBLE-02s ESC that will be going in my Manta Ray when I build it next month. I have a TrackStar 13.5T in the draw that'll I use in that.

[alvinlwh]

With limited gearing options, RPM of the BL motor matters more than it's torque as you cannot put in a bigger pinion and/or smaller spur for it to turn with all that torque. With that... 

According to my chart

17.5T - ~2200Kv

15.5T - 2300Kv (Tamiya's 15.5T)

13.5T - ~3200kv

For reference, a TT is 2222Kv. 

So yeah, you will not see much of an improvement, if any, with a 15.5T but if you go to a 13.5T, you should see an improvement. 

Personally, I use a TBLE with a SP 17.5T but in a "free gearing" chassis where I can freely change both the spur and pinion. However I also run a UBEC with it due to its rubbish BEC. 

For reference, the recommended FDR of 17.5T is 4.6 - 6.0 and 13.5T is 4.8 - 6.0 (for TC, adjust for buggy larger wheels), neither achievable with the Dragon/TS chassis which is 6.77 - 8.86. 

If I am to run a brushless in my Thunder Dragon, I will probably be using a 9.5T (~ 4000Kv), which will be a fair bit better than the TZ (3681Kv) I currently have in there.

Realistically, I do not bother with TBLEs anymore except in very "light weight" built like a Grasshopper. If you want to go brushless cheaply, consider a "bluebottle" 13.5T (2860Kv) which should work with the TBLE, just need to install a fan...but don't forget the fan is feeding off the already weak BEC! 

[alvinlwh]

16 minutes ago, Losi XXT-CR said:

Will the ESC survive 13.5T? That is reasonably far above its rating. The TBE-04s also only has a 1.5A BEC. And already struggles with the steering servo. I'm not sure adding a fan for it to power too would be a great idea. Eventually I'll get a better ESC, but didn't want to spend that much right now. I have a TBLE-02s ESC that will be going in my Manta Ray when I build it next month. I have a TrackStar 13.5T in the draw that'll I use in that.

Opps you already replied re the fan as I pressed post. OK, if you really want to go brushless cheap and properly, a SkyRC TS50 + bluebottle 13.5T is the cheapest currently. ~ £28 + £20 + VAT off Aliexpress. Alternatively, one of the Surpass package will be ~ £50 + VAT. However I recommend the SkyRC as if you get the program card, it works as a servo amp tester as well to check your servo will not overpower your BEC. 

Not a good example of speed but this LRP Twister Buggy has the SkyRC TS50 + bluebottle 13.5T in it. 

 

[Twinfan]

9 hours ago, Losi XXT-CR said:

Will the ESC survive 13.5T? That is reasonably far above its rating. The TBE-04s also only has a 1.5A BEC. And already struggles with the steering servo. I'm not sure adding a fan for it to power too would be a great idea. Eventually I'll get a better ESC, but didn't want to spend that much right now. I have a TBLE-02s ESC that will be going in my Manta Ray when I build it next month. I have a TrackStar 13.5T in the draw that'll I use in that.

Tamiya advised using their cooling fan on the TBLE-02S when running the Tamiya 10.5T motor, and their TBLE-04SR ESC is just a TBLE-04S with a fan which is listed as OK for 10.5T motors.  I run a Mad Bull with a TBLE-04S and a Hobbywing 13.5T motor and no fan and it's fine, but the body is more open than the Fire Dragon.

As I said earlier, I think a 13.5T motor with a 25mm x 25mm cooling fan and a 13.5T motor would be OK in the Fire Dragon and the largest pinion - 6.77 FDR isn't that far off 6.0.

[Losi XXT-CR]

1 hour ago, Twinfan said:

Tamiya advised using their cooling fan on the TBLE-02S when running the Tamiya 10.5T motor, and their TBLE-04SR ESC is just a TBLE-04S with a fan which is listed as OK for 10.5T motors.  I run a Mad Bull with a TBLE-04S and a Hobbywing 13.5T motor and no fan and it's fine, but the body is more open than the Fire Dragon.

As I said earlier, I think a 13.5T motor with a 25mm x 25mm cooling fan and a 13.5T motor would be OK in the Fire Dragon and the largest pinion - 6.77 FDR isn't that far off 6.0.

Thanks.

Amazingly a fan just fits under the cover.

Think I'll run it again with the Torque tuned motor and see how it performs, bench testing the servo and fan seemed to be working. Then I may see about fitting the 13.5T motor I have in the draw.

If this doesn't work out, other options are to buy a 1060 brushed ESC as I have some 12 turn modified motors also sitting in the draw.

[Twinfan]

Nice one  

Be aware that you won't be able to get the gearing anywhere near low enough for a 12T modified brushed motor though!

[bsy2010]

17 hours ago, Losi XXT-CR said:

So my question is, how does a 17.5T brushless compare to a 23T brushed Torque tuned motor? Would it be an actual upgrade, or would it just be £35 wasted on a motor that ultimately would perform about the same?

It also depends how you want to drive? Just casual driving around the backyard or on a track?

we‘re running two classes at our vintage raves, one for Turque Tuned only, the other one is limited to 13.5 brushless. And the lap times are identical! Since we race on clay, the brushed setup even has a small advantage over the 13.5. A 17.5 might not be any slower.

 

 

[MadAnt]

I have a 10.5 sensored system in my TT02 type S. It felt like it would go without much punch with the stock gearing, which had me scratching my head. Sensored brushless systems are a different animal, it stayed very cool, so I figured it needed more load. I was right. Put in a 58 tooth spur from a TT01 and it woke up(forgot what pinion I used). It was like the esc knew when to give the power(it probably did).

So I would say it depends on setup.

[Losi XXT-CR]

Bit of an update to hopefully round this off.

I did run the Fire Dragon again yesterday with the Torque Tuned motor. On tarmac it is "ok", nothing special, but goes well enough. On my GPS meter I clocked 24.56mph with the Torque tuned. However, taking it onto the grass really zapped the speed and power. The grass was shortish and wet, but it didn't have enough power to spin the wheels or get the back out. On a track I can see it being quite effective and easy to drive, but it certainly felt like it needed more for bashing. Top speed on the grass was quite diminished. I daresay running a smaller pinion gear would have brought more pep and possible no worse top speed on the grass.

I have now fitted the TrackStar 13.5T brushless motor.

 

I've only had chance to run it up the road, which is not ideal. It certainly feels a lot more powerful. Hopefully give it a good run tomorrow.

[alvinlwh]

15 hours ago, Losi XXT-CR said:

I have now fitted the TrackStar 13.5T brushless motor.

 

Is that a 3660/3665 motor? The torque on those are massive and can turn even faster gearing. My numbers are just for 3650 sized ones only. 

[Losi XXT-CR]

54 minutes ago, alvinlwh said:

Is that a 3660/3665 motor? The torque on those are massive and can turn even faster gearing. My numbers are just for 3650 sized ones only. 

Listed as a 540 size. 
https://hobbyking.com/en_us/turnigy-trackstar-13-5t-sensored-brushless-motor-3040kv-roar-approved.html?srsltid=AfmBOooiyi1H_boIaKYTwYxgc8lMGRCZ5k84pVscuOo7MLCkwHdoM_6D&___store=en_us

[alvinlwh]

18 minutes ago, Losi XXT-CR said:

Listed as a 540 size. 
https://hobbyking.com/en_us/turnigy-trackstar-13-5t-sensored-brushless-motor-3040kv-roar-approved.html?srsltid=AfmBOooiyi1H_boIaKYTwYxgc8lMGRCZ5k84pVscuOo7MLCkwHdoM_6D&___store=en_us

Guess it is the angle of the photo, looks really long there. 

[Losi XXT-CR]

Probably the final update for this thread, just to round it off.

I run the 13.5T setup today. Surprisingly it was only just over 1mph faster than the Torque Tuned motor. 24.56 vs 25.63mph. Showing the motor rpm must be similar.

But the 13.5T brushless has way more punch and is a lot more lively and fun to drive. It is a good upgrade over the Torque Tuned motor.

I'm also surprised with just how smooth the TBLE-04 is, it is sensored. But it'll creep so slow and is so smooth, no cogging at all and really shows how crude most/all of the sensorless setups are.

[Nicadraus]

Not sure what kind of 17.5t brushless motor you guys were referring to because according to the output (2200kv?) listed above, that seem to be low compared to the 17.5t brushless (sensored) I'm using. Ares Pro 17.5t and Rocket V3 & V5 (both 17.5t too). They have similar outputs of 2900-3100KV (between 26-28,000 rpm at blinky spec). If turbo and boost are enabled, turbo is set to start at 9,000rpm and boost start at 14,000 and end to 45,000rpm. To which, a Sport Tuned or a Torque Tuned is incomparable in terms of speed and torque. Even the 21.5t Rocket V3 I'm using in my XV-01 has much, much more power than a 21t brushed motor.

The reason why I upgraded from this (21t brushed)...

to this (21.5t brushless)...

is because there's just so much more power with the brushless at almost the same spec turns.

So to answer your question...

On 10/11/2024 at 4:56 AM, Losi XXT-CR said:

So my question is, how does a 17.5T brushless compare to a 23T brushed Torque tuned motor? Would it be an actual upgrade, or would it just be £35 wasted on a motor that ultimately would perform about the same?

Thoughts?

Most (true) 17.5t brushless motors (sensored) from R1, Xerun, Reedy, Surpass Rocket, SkyRC Ares Pro, Orion, Muchmore, LRP, Orca, Trinity, etc. that have similar outputs of 2900-3100kv, will definitely outrun/outperform a Torque Tuned motor.

[alvinlwh]

Ares Pro 17.5t 2200Kv

Source: SkyRC

https://www.skyrc.com/Ares_Pro

Surpass Rocket V3 17.5t 2300Kv

Source: Surpass USA

https://surpasshobbyusa.net/rocket-v3-spec-17-5t-sensored-brushless-motor/v3-17-5/

Surpass Rocket V5R 17.5t 2650Kv

Source: Surpass USA

https://surpasshobbyusa.net/rocket-v5r-spec-17-5t-sensored-brushless-motor-silver-black/v5r-17-5/

On 10/10/2024 at 9:56 PM, Losi XXT-CR said:

TBLE-04s

The TBLE does not have timing or turbo or other BS, so you will only achieve the stock numbers. You can boost them if you adjust timing on the motors (if avaliable) but in complete stock setting, they are just slow as you had tested. 

On 10/13/2024 at 8:14 PM, Losi XXT-CR said:

Surprisingly it was only just over 1mph faster than the Torque Tuned motor. 24.56 vs 25.63mph. Showing the motor rpm must be similar.

Sure, they can be boosted to the moon and back by cranking everything way up on the ESC, but can it be done with the TBLE you are using? No. 

[Pylon80]

4 hours ago, Nicadraus said:

Not sure what kind of 17.5t brushless motor you guys were referring to because according to the output (2200kv?) listed above, that seem to be low compared to the 17.5t brushless (sensored) I'm using. Ares Pro 17.5t and Rocket V3 & V5 (both 17.5t too). They have similar outputs of 2900-3100KV (between 26-28,000 rpm at blinky spec). If turbo and boost are enabled, turbo is set to start at 9,000rpm and boost start at 14,000 and end to 45,000rpm. To which, a Sport Tuned or a Torque Tuned is incomparable in terms of speed and torque. Even the 21.5t Rocket V3 I'm using in my XV-01 has much, much more power than a 21t brushed motor.

The reason why I upgraded from this (21t brushed)...

to this (21.5t brushless)...

is because there's just so much more power with the brushless at almost the same spec turns.

So to answer your question...

Most (true) 17.5t brushless motors (sensored) from R1, Xerun, Reedy, Surpass Rocket, SkyRC Ares Pro, Orion, Muchmore, LRP, Orca, Trinity, etc. that have similar outputs of 2900-3100kv, will definitely outrun/outperform a Torque Tuned motor.

They are making the comparison because it's for a vintage buggy that lacks the ability to be geared long enough to make the most of a BL motor of the appropriate turn count (say, a 25.5...) and therefore for that buggy one needs to go overboard with a low turn count BL.

I think most people are aware that 3650 BL motors all run circles around a Torque Tuned, if you can gear them correctly; although there's still the odd person that complains about a "slow brushless motors" after having installed it in a Tamiya with stock or fixed gearing designed for a silver can.

What doesn't help is that Tamiya USA proposed for TCS to either run a Torque Tuned or their 15.5! Making it sound like they were the same power - which they're not... unless you keep the gearing the same.

I had a 17.5 on my M-05 last year. With stock gearing and timing at 0 (end bell) and a zero timing ESC it was like a silver can (although a very durable, consistent and cool running one). With two notches of timing it woke up but still mild for what it was. I now run the 21.5 version of the same motor but with 3racing high speed gear set and it's the same speed/power: lap times didn't change. That 21.5 motor was making my buggy (correctly geared per the racing rules at the local track and per the manual) leap over the jumps like it was on steroids. It was an eye opener. Some guys are running AWD modern buggies with 13.5 motors and it's downright insane. They can clumsily approach the lip of a jump at a walking pace then squeeze the throttle and that will clear a 20ft long triple jump. It looks like someone set Earth's gravity to "Moon Physics" mode  (if you played the old Tony Hawk video game back in the days, lol).

[Andreas W]

The more recent generation motors have higher KV rating. My Ruddog RP540 17,5 (launched in 2016) is also only 2200KV out of the box (and the 21.5 I also have like only ca 1800KV). The current Hobbywing Xerun is about 3000KV I think. 

[alvinlwh]

Full disclosure, here is the chart I made of various motors. Numbers from the companies' own websites, or if not avaliable, from various sellers pages. 

Yes, a Surpass V5 is faster than a V3. And of course a newer V6 is even faster. 

As I happen to have a SP 17.5T on hand, I give it a KV test. 

2285Kv, seems close enough to the manufacturer's claim of 2200Kv? No! This motor has +21 timing dialed in (+11 sensor board and +10 end bell board position). So without, it will be a bit below the spec's Kv.

36 minutes ago, Pylon80 said:

zero timing ESC

OP expressed a desire to continue using his TBLE, which is a zero setting ESC. All the talk about turbo or boost is just irrelevant. And since OP was also comparing top speed, total RPM is the only factor here since he had already gone as far as he can go on gearing. 

[alvinlwh]

2 hours ago, Andreas W said:

The more recent generation motors have higher KV rating. My Ruddog RP540 17,5 (launched in 2016) is also only 2200KV out of the box (and the 21.5 I also have like only ca 1800KV). The current Hobbywing Xerun is about 3000KV I think. 

It has 3020Kv but it also has a base timing of +30. Most, if not all of the numbers on the chart I have are based on +0 timing, so not really an equal comparison. 

OP also expressed a desire to keep cost down and has a budget of ~£30, so suggesting a ~£100 motor is just out of range of the budget.

At the price range, most, if not all, 17.5t's are <2500Kv.