Avante with super stock

[Marchie 101]

Hey folks,

Just put a super stock TZ in my Avante BS - it absolutely flies but is also generating a lot of heat - both the motor and esc.

I’ve put a 20T pinion in it, 1060 esc, running on loose dirt mostly.

Any advice for keeping it cool? Should I go to 18T ? Ventilate the shell somehow? 

Admittedly I did a lot of running on grass for the ‘test-run’ which I don’t normally do, so maybe that’s it?

Cheers.

[Mouc-RC 662]

From my experience, I'd say the Super Stocks (BZ & TZ are those I have) prefer small pinions. But they generate kind of a lot of heat, even with that. Also I am clearly not a specialist, let's read commentaries from others :)

I once had to disassemble my BZ to clean the collector with fine grain abrasive paper, it had over-heated with a 20(?) teeth pinion in a DT-01 with big wheels.

[skom25 2218]

1 hour ago, Marchie said:

Hey folks,

Just put a super stock TZ in my Avante BS - it absolutely flies but is also generating a lot of heat - both the motor and esc.

I’ve put a 20T pinion in it, 1060 esc, running on loose dirt mostly.

Any advice for keeping it cool? Should I go to 18T ? Ventilate the shell somehow? 

Admittedly I did a lot of running on grass for the ‘test-run’ which I don’t normally do, so maybe that’s it?

Cheers.

18T can improve situation a bit, but do not expect too much.

SS motors are nice, but they are useless. Even fan does not change too much. If you check manual, you will find information that those motors are designed for 5 minutes sprints.

Once you overheat it, performance will not be the same.

I burned three SS motors. It is waste of money. I suggest to use them only in "nice" cars which you will run for few minutes once per month.

 

[Mouc-RC 662]

Forgot to say that I recently added a custom heat-dissipator on my CC-01, it solves the heat problem a bit. In this specific vehicle now I don't think there's any overheating risk anymore

Maybe there's an optional one for the Avante? It can't hurt anyway...

[Twinfan 2040]

20T is 9.07:1, which is at the lower end of the recommended gearing for a Super Stock motor (9.1:1 to 11.1:1).  So I wouldn't go any lower unless you're always going to be running on the particular surface that has caused the heat issue as you'll only lose speed.

Running on grass can be tough, I'd try it on your chosen terrain before changing anything.

[Marchie 101]

Thanks for the advice all.

I’ll test more thoroughly on not-grass first since changing the pinion involves quite a bit of disassembly. 
 

Loving the performance, wouldn’t go any faster though, definitely feels like I’ve hit the limit of what the suspension can control.

[Marchie 101]

Perhaps a crazy idea, but I was looking at the Avante shell for where I might add ventilation and realised the fake air-intakes are in exactly the right place to ventilate the motor and esc…

Just wondering if anyone has tried cutting out the intake holes? If so did it aid cooling, or just make the shell flap in the wind and let dirt and dust into the electronics? 

[BuggyDad 6022]

On 11/9/2024 at 1:40 PM, Marchie said:

Just put a super stock TZ in my Avante BS - it absolutely flies but is also generating a lot of heat

 

On 11/9/2024 at 2:12 PM, Mouc-RC said:

I'd say the Super Stocks (BZ & TZ are those I have) prefer small pinions. But they generate kind of a lot of heat, even with that

 

On 11/9/2024 at 2:54 PM, skom25 said:

SS motors are nice, but they are useless. Even fan does not change too much. If you check manual, you will find information that those motors are designed for 5 minutes sprints.

Once you overheat it, performance will not be the same.

This consensus begs the question then - compared to what? What's a good alternative brushed motor? Similar power and speed, say, less heat.

I've got a couple of superstocks because I wanted about this performance level whole using up kit ESCs and keeping the costs down. If there are much better options out there I'm keen to grab one because the power level suits me but I would like to gear up a little without the heat concern. 

[Twinfan 2040]

27 minutes ago, BuggyDad said:

This consensus begs the question then - compared to what? What's a good alternative brushed motor? Similar power and speed, say, less heat.

Brand new current production?  You've got no other options for the spec level or faster (rebuildable <=21T turn) as far as I'm aware.  New Old Stock vintage motors are the only alternative, but they were almost certainly designed for short races and will have the same issues as a Super Stock.

I hate to say it, but brushless has to be the way to go for the combination of power and good heat management during longer run times.

[BuggyDad 6022]

2 hours ago, Twinfan said:

Brand new current production?  You've got no other options for the spec level or faster (rebuildable <=21T turn) as far as I'm aware.  New Old Stock vintage motors are the only alternative, but they were almost certainly designed for short races and will have the same issues as a Super Stock.

I hate to say it, but brushless has to be the way to go for the combination of power and good heat management during longer run times.

These were an option I had seen when looking the other week:

https://rochesterrc.uk/products/lrp-v10-spec6-10-x-2-brushed-motor

But I know nothing of brushed motors. Might they be better than (or comparable to) a Superstock? 

[Losi XXT-CR 469]

23 minutes ago, BuggyDad said:

These were an option I had seen when looking the other week:

https://rochesterrc.uk/products/lrp-v10-spec6-10-x-2-brushed-motor

But I know nothing of brushed motors. Might they be better than (or comparable to) a Superstock? 

Trouble is, what ESC would you run with it today? Is there even a new brushed ESC that will work?

[Twinfan 2040]

49 minutes ago, BuggyDad said:

These were an option I had seen when looking the other week:

https://rochesterrc.uk/products/lrp-v10-spec6-10-x-2-brushed-motor

But I know nothing of brushed motors. Might they be better than (or comparable to) a Superstock? 

I've got a stack of them, can't believe I forgot about them!!!!  Yes, they would work.

 

24 minutes ago, Losi XXT-CR said:

Trouble is, what ESC would you run with it today? Is there even a new brushed ESC that will work?

https://www.timetunnelmodels.com/live/catalog/tamiya-hobbywing-1060-quicrun-brushed-nimhlipo-with-limit-nimh-1060-thw1060-p-70425.html

The Tamiya THW-1060-RTR can go down to 8T motors.

[skom25 2218]

4 hours ago, BuggyDad said:

This consensus begs the question then - compared to what? What's a good alternative brushed motor? Similar power and speed, say, less heat.

I do not know, but if motor cooks after 5 minutes, it is useless. 

It is not huge fun, to run it for 5 minutes and wait 10 minutes to cool down.

Fan improves situation, but margin between hot and too hot is very thin.

[BuggyDad 6022]

3 hours ago, Twinfan said:

I've got a stack of them, can't believe I forgot about them!!!!  Yes, they would work.

They seem to be readily available in different specs. But I know nothing about brushed motors. Where do you think in the range would the superstock fit? Would it make sense to go more powerful and gear down a little for heat management? 

[Twinfan 2040]

Superstock is 23T, 26,500rpm.  An exact match for rpm is the LRP 17x2.  The 10x2 is 42,500rpm!

[Mouc-RC 662]

I have no qualification in electricity, maybe this is the reason why I'm not afraid of an (over)heating problem for the Superstock... The only time I had to clean the collector, it took me only 5 minutes. After a good amount of 15 minutes runs... Just remove the end-bell, then the rotor, take notice of the shimming order, put the output shaft in a spindle (hand-drill? In my case it was my micro-lathe) and sand the copper very lightly with fine sanding paper. When done, the copper is "copper" again (not brown anymore), then re-assemble, oil the bushings, & the motor runs just as before :)

If I need to do this once every 15 or 20 runs, I'm personally Ok with it :)

[BuggyDad 6022]

2 hours ago, Twinfan said:

Superstock is 23T, 26,500rpm.  An exact match for rpm is the LRP 17x2.  The 10x2 is 42,500rpm!

Ah ha. Great to know. I will give some though to trying an LRP then. Will probably go for something a fair bit quicker than SS equivalent, to experiment with gearing down and seeking cooler temps, rather than trying to get the most out of it.

[Losi XXT-CR 469]

7 hours ago, Twinfan said:

https://www.timetunnelmodels.com/live/catalog/tamiya-hobbywing-1060-quicrun-brushed-nimhlipo-with-limit-nimh-1060-thw1060-p-70425.html

The Tamiya THW-1060-RTR can go down to 8T motors.

Are those specs accurate? All other 1060 listings say 12T motor limit on 2S. Which is a big difference.

Apart from the motor limit, the specs look the same on the Tamiya one and still only rated at 60amp.

Also the listing in your link says this"

"the speed controller has a black heatsink and comes in a plastic bag and has a different decal on the case but is otherwise identical to the current OEM/bulk version of the HobbyWing 1060"

Which again would suggest it is no superior to other 1060's? Unless Hobbywing under spec the regular version.

 

???

[Twinfan 2040]

10 minutes ago, Losi XXT-CR said:

Are those specs accurate?

This is what comes with the ESC, so I think it's pretty accurate  

[Losi XXT-CR 469]

41 minutes ago, Twinfan said:

This is what comes with the ESC, so I think it's pretty accurate  

Thanks. Very curious. I do have a 9x3 motor in the draw that I've been wanting to use. I used to have it on my old LRP v7.1 ESC, but it never really seemed to gel very well with LiPo batteries.

[BuggyDad 6022]

11 hours ago, BuggyDad said:

Ah ha. Great to know. I will give some though to trying an LRP then. Will probably go for something a fair bit quicker than SS equivalent, to experiment with gearing down and seeking cooler temps, rather than trying to get the most out of it.

@Twinfan there is a wide range of options available with LRP. It's an interesting prospect I think to mop up some parts bin ESCs with LRP motors. 

Am I missing anything if I make the assumption that by going from a Superstock to say a LRP 14X2, down a size or two with the pinion to roughly adjust for RPM, and simultaneously winding the transmitter punch settings down to reduce acceleration, I could reasonably expect to replicate Superstock performance with much less heat generation? 

That is not to say I'd do exactly this - for me more likely I'll just experiment my way to a pinion size where we don't overheat. But with motors I think there may be rather more to it than RPM. Eg I don't know how power/torque changes by motor or indeed the power curve over the rpm range and whether one realistically expects it to get to max RPM in a given car. 

[Twinfan 2040]

@BuggyDad - for gearing, LRP give the following info on their website:

As LRP don't publish torque figures for their motors it's hard to know for sure, but generally the lower the turn the higher up the rev range the peak output will be - they'll be peakier.  So I would expect the LRP motors to need to be spinning more to make equivalent power to a Super Stock, which will probably be a bit punchier lower down and in the mid range.  Getting something to perform like a Super Stock is very much going to depend where you're running the car - what surface, how long you're on full throttle etc - and in some circumstances won't be possible e.g. if you're using the torque band of a Super Stock a lot accelerating from slower speeds through grass, for example.

For any lower turn brushed motor to work well in a buggy you're really going to need a low drag fast surface e.g. dusty gravel so they can spin up to speed easily - like they had on outdoor circuits back in the day!

 

[skom25 2218]

13 hours ago, Mouc-RC said:

I have no qualification in electricity, maybe this is the reason why I'm not afraid of an (over)heating problem for the Superstock... The only time I had to clean the collector, it took me only 5 minutes. After a good amount of 15 minutes runs... Just remove the end-bell, then the rotor, take notice of the shimming order, put the output shaft in a spindle (hand-drill? In my case it was my micro-lathe) and sand the copper very lightly with fine sanding paper. When done, the copper is "copper" again (not brown anymore), then re-assemble, oil the bushings, & the motor runs just as before

If I need to do this once every 15 or 20 runs, I'm personally Ok with it

I asked about this too and there are two problems:

- After some time, comm will not be round anymore, which will affect performance

- If you overheat motor once, magnets will be weaker

I cooked one motor and despite I rebuilt it, performance dropped to more or less Torque Tuned level.

[Twinfan 2040]

37 minutes ago, skom25 said:

I asked about this too and there are two problems:

- After some time, comm will not be round anymore, which will affect performance

- If you overheat motor once, magnets will be weaker

I cooked one motor and despite I rebuilt it, performance dropped to more or less Torque Tuned level.

You can't blame the motor for you overheating it, that's user error  

[skom25 2218]

Of course it is!

However, as I wrote, my experience shows that Super Stock motors are fine just for a short period of time. At beginning you care, check temps, wait to cool down motor. Then it starts to be bit boring, so you want to run for a bit longer and wait shorter to cool down motor. At some point, motor will be cooked. I really took care about my motors, but I was not able to avoid problems.

To be honest, I have much more fun with Torque Tuned/ Sport Tuned motors which I can run constantly for 10/20/30 minutes, than with Super Stock which started to boil after 5 minutes.

I see only one use case for Super Stock motors and probably I will use it too in nearest future:

Nice car, built for fun to run in nice, sunny day, just for few minutes.

It is not about hate for SS motors. I really like them, they are really fast and look awesome! It is about "real life" usage.