vinatge designs, how far do you modify?

[Saito2]

In olden times, I always modified the heck out of my Tamiya vehicles. Now that I have the skill and minimally more knowledge, lacking in my youth, I find I prefer my models more stock. Oh, there's always the subtle durability mods and close attention to detail put in during assembly or restoration that make their way into the build nowadays. Still, my interest have changed over time and I get more joy running the cars much closer to stock to soak in all those idiosyncrasies that give each Tamiya chassis a personality of their own.

At one time, hyper-modified Tamiya buggies were limited to the amazing efforts from members like Grahoo. Now, with the advent of readily available design software and 3D printing more and more old-school Tamiyas are finding themselves heavily modified. Personally, its not my cup of tea as there reaches a point where the soul feels like its gone from the car. With a custom chassis, redesigned suspension geometry and a new retro fitted gearbox, is the car really the same car or is this a Ship of Theseus paradox? On the other hand these excursions into the extreme represent a great deal of creativity and knowledge. The fact we can happily have both types of cars in our hobby is great. So what's your opinion on modifying vehicles? How far do you like to take things?

[Wheel_Nut]

I’m personally not interested in buying vintage models with fragile transmissions and excessive bump steer.  It’s a big obstacle that prevents me owning most of them.     Luckily MIP still make their ball diff for the frog and monster beetle.

[El Gecko]

I like functional mods, but I also agree that at some point you lose the "soul" of the original car. The nostalgia of certain cars determines how far I'm willing to modify them, but mostly I try for non-invasive, reversible changes in general, unless the part is too far gone and needs major surgery. I'm also very cost-conscious, and I don't buy a lot of new parts for my RCs. I get ideas for modifications from looking at hopup parts online. I see pictures and I think "well shoot, I could probably make that, maybe." So my challenge has been to see how much I can do without buying anything, just making parts using whatever raw materials (trash) I have laying around. This hobby is one way I escape from working on the computer all day, so no 3D printing either (also due to cost). Just pieces of scrap steel and aluminum and plastic formed into RC parts using a Dremel, drill, file, and sandpaper (sometimes a hammer, chisel, and anvil too). Low-tech, simple, and cheap, but mostly effective and actually kind of eco-friendly since it didn't have to get shipped here from halfway across the world (or at least halfway across the country). Obviously things like servos/receivers/ESCs and motors are a different story, and I'm all over the board there. I like a good brushed motor, but stock silvercans are too slow for me most of the time.

[Kowalski86]

I look at it like this, when the Meyers Manx was created Bruce didn't call it a "Volkswagen Beetle", even though it shared a lot of VW parts. He acknowledged that it was largely his own creation. The same goes for vintage/re-re Tamiyas, you have to ask how much of it it's still "Tamiya", and how much of it is someone's custom job.

I try to buy RCs that fit a certain want out of the box, vs spending tons of money/time making it into something else (and having tons of spares cluttering my work space). I kinda need money for batteries and tires, without them any modification or hop-up would be "moot" in my book.

[Grumpy pants]

I think it is ingenious the thought and design that goes into recreating and producing parts and upgrades for vintage RC’s personally.

I’d liken them to resto mods on 1:1’s and I’m 100% behind people letting their imagination run wild and there is so much scope and room for everyone. 
 

 

[ThunderDragonCy]

As someone who tends to do this to the nth degree, my answer is "it depends on the model". The thing i love most about the 80s and 90s tamiyas is the bodies and the overall look. But, i like them to be good to drive, or at least not frustrating. So it depends on the base model.

My Notshot2 isn't very modified because the base model has half decent suspension with a bit of damper tuning. I just sorted the steering. Although my Thunder Dragon is way modified, the relatively stock version i built a while back was great once i got the dampers tuned. 

On the other hand, i love the look of the swing axle models, but i hate the way they drive. I have gone quite a long way past the "spirit" of the originals with Ultra Hornet and Ultra G EVO - mainly for my own amazement - i think Ultra G is definitely in the spirit of the time. Although it's got a few 3d print linking pieces, it's mostly a bag of vintage bits available at the same time as the original GH2. It's not as precise or high performance as the later iterations i built, but there is warmth to the way it drives that is just lovely, and you definitely have to drive around the flex and movement of the chassis in a very vintage kind of way. 

One thing i would say is that i have no interest in fast motors anymore. 

 

[BuggyDad]

I think there's room for all comers and as a serial modder I do appreciate the "soul" of a classic too, I just mostly do it from a distance.

Other people's Avantes and Egresses are beautiful things that I appreciate very much in their own right. Ditto things like SRBs. Mostly, I'd be hard pushed to mod an Avante because I'd feel there was so much (flawed in some areas and that's part of the joy) kind of cutting edge at the time design effort went into it that I'd like to appreciate, but yet a project on my list (that I'll probably never do) is to make a sort of Avante 2001 out of an Egress. Or maybe a LWB out of an Avante now I can CNC. Contradictory I know. 

I think if I had two of something like the SRB, one stock and one I'd tinkered with to the nth degree, that might maximise my appreciation of the original, as well as show the joy of the modification journey. 

On the other hand DTs, hoppers and Blitzer Beetles are basic plastic models of fairly generic layout and part of the joy of them I think is that there are both stock examples and those modified to the moon, and everything in between. I love the variety, ingenuity and the fun they've given. For me, the fun they give me is all in the modifying. 

Hotshots I see as a classic I can appreciate but also they have an every man's availability and reach that means you could write a book about the mods people have done over the decades. And I think that in itself has a kind of soul. I love my heavily modified Boomerang, in fact much more than I thought I would. I think in some way I have both changed its character and kept its character. Contradictory again!

How about the Astute? That's my next little project. My gut says my view is much more to appreciate than mod. But I will probably go hard on making my own parts. This is another take on appreciating the old. I want to remake the old and live it. Run it without guilt.and this one was a racer, so that sounds like some crashes are inevitable. On a limited edition, my own work is a way to do that, and fun again in the process.

TLDR: Variety is the spice of life! 

[jonboy1]

I'd have to echo @ThunderDragonCy and @BuggyDad - it very much depends on the model, so I'd say I have a foot firmly in each camp.

I've been very lucky in being able to get all my "dream" buggies - Avante, Egress, Astute, Durga etc - and I fully appreciate the amazing engineering that is each one. These were all the "ultimate" in their own class as far as I'm concerned, and I'd not even contemplate trying to change or improve upon them. Yes, I'll hopup the blue anodising out of them, but that's all part and parcel of the original in my mind.   If it came from Tamiya and it was designed for that model, I'll have it!! Several times over the weekend I found myself sat in my garage just gazing at my Avante, it's just awesome! Then there are proper vintage things like my M38 or "mk1" SRB - I've painstakingly restored those (and others for fellow members) making sure they are as close to original and perfect as possible. They're just perfect as they are, capturing a moment in time which won't be repeated.

But equally, there are some buggies that have never quite matched my expectations. Take the FAV for example. I love the body, but everything else on it feels like it has been designed to a price. The front arms look like a piece of scaled down I-beam bent into a "J" - how does that fit with such a beautiful, lightweight body? The rear arms appear to be what resulted from a rummage through the parts bin (aren't they the same as off the Hornet?) and decided "that'll do" then made to fit. It just juxtaposes against such a lovely, scale, detailed body that it grates with me. As I've said before, I sold my FAV because it frustrated me, and it wasn't until 3D printing enabled me to set about making it how I felt it always should have been that I fell back in love with it. Besides which, it is completely reversible and I kept all the original parts, so I can always put it back to stock if I wanted to sell it.

My SRB-Evo is a little different, as it is basically a complete new buggy, sharing only a few parts with the original. But I wanted it to "echo" the original - a spiritual successor rather than a modification of the original.

But then, is it much different to what companies like Team CRP, Yeah Racing, Jazrider, Robinsons or RC-Channel have been doing for years? Or what about the stealth transmissions that were put in everything during the 80's? Whether it comes down to aesthetic or functional improvements, it's something people have done since the beginning of RC time. And that is what (I reckon) keeps the hobby interesting and keeps it progressing forward. If the market didn't demand progression we'd all still be running Grasshoppers rather than BBXs' and Super Avantes'

Part of the reason for my having a go at making these is I feel uninspired by anything that has come from Tamiya lately. If I didn't have these to tinker with I'd probably have packed up my cars and left the hobby. I can only hope they don't run out of M06 transmissions......  

[Saito2]

In a past life, I was worked in automotive restoration by day while being a Hotrodder by night. Resto guys bashed hotrodders as boorish, destroying history with their antics. Hotrodders saw resto guys as stuck-up snobs and some almost sadistically hacked up rare cars on the path to completing their vision. The beauty of RC, even more so with re-releases, is none of that exist here. We all get to do what we want and its all cool.

Its interesting @Kowalski86 brought up VWs. When I dabbled in old aircooled bugs, Subaru boxer swaps were becoming popular. But as one guy once said, once you replace the engine in an AC bug with something new and water cooled, you essentially rip its heart out. That stuck with me I guess. In the end that line is a grey one and different for everybody.

8 hours ago, El Gecko said:

I like functional mods, but I also agree that at some point you lose the "soul" of the original car. The nostalgia of certain cars determines how far I'm willing to modify them, but mostly I try for non-invasive, reversible changes in general, unless the part is too far gone and needs major surgery. I'm also very cost-conscious, and I don't buy a lot of new parts for my RCs. I get ideas for modifications from looking at hopup parts online. I see pictures and I think "well shoot, I could probably make that, maybe." So my challenge has been to see how much I can do without buying anything, just making parts using whatever raw materials (trash) I have laying around. This hobby is one way I escape from working on the computer all day, so no 3D printing either (also due to cost). Just pieces of scrap steel and aluminum and plastic formed into RC parts using a Dremel, drill, file, and sandpaper (sometimes a hammer, chisel, and anvil too). Low-tech, simple, and cheap, but mostly effective and actually kind of eco-friendly since it didn't have to get shipped here from halfway across the world (or at least halfway across the country). Obviously things like servos/receivers/ESCs and motors are a different story, and I'm all over the board there. I like a good brushed motor, but stock silvercans are too slow for me most of the time.

Pretty much sums up my personal approach too.

[jonboy1]

10 hours ago, Saito2 said:

 is the car really the same car or is this a Ship of Theseus paradox? 

I read that book with huge expectation and I'm still confused and have no idea what it was all about.

[Losi XXT-CR]

11 hours ago, Wheel_Nut said:

I’m personally not interested in buying vintage models with fragile transmissions and excessive bump steer.  It’s a big obstacle that prevents me owning most of them.     Luckily MIP still make their ball diff for the frog and monster beetle.

I doubt either of these things are "real" issues for most used across most models.... seems more like cutting your nose to spite your face really.

[Losi XXT-CR]

11 hours ago, Saito2 said:

At one time, hyper-modified Tamiya buggies were limited to the amazing efforts from members like Grahoo. Now, with the advent of readily available design software and 3D printing more and more old-school Tamiyas are finding themselves heavily modified. Personally, its not my cup of tea as there reaches a point where the soul feels like its gone from the car. With a custom chassis, redesigned suspension geometry and a new retro fitted gearbox, is the car really the same car or is this a Ship of Theseus paradox? On the other hand these excursions into the extreme represent a great deal of creativity and knowledge. The fact we can happily have both types of cars in our hobby is great. So what's your opinion on modifying vehicles? How far do you like to take things?

Not really sure what your definition of "modified" is.

I have nothing against fast motors, better servo's and good ESC's, oil shocks.... are these mods in your eyes? I have no interest in running crappy Nicd or NiMh batteries on stock silvercans to get poor runtimes and pedestrian performance.

On the flip side, if you mod the heck out of something that it no longer resembles what it was. That too is pointless IMO. You might as well just start with something more suitable. It's not as if there is a lack of choice.

Occasional mods help though. I fitted AMPRO axle thingy to my Lunchbox that stops the axle flapping about. It made a HUGE difference to how it drives. Without altering the core design. It also doesn't alter the appearance of the model either.

[donfilippo]

Good question... I like to play around with colours and decals, so I rarely go box-art. The alloy chassis on my Fighting Buggy was the biggest mod so far. I like to keep the original spirit of the car, but also want to make it "mine".  On the other Hand, they are just toys, so why not get creative and turn them something totally unique? Some members here have done stunning modifications to their cars and their ideas and work always impress me.

[Kowalski86]

3 hours ago, Saito2 said:

Its interesting @Kowalski86 brought up VWs. When I dabbled in old aircooled bugs, Subaru boxer swaps were becoming popular. But as one guy once said, once you replace the engine in an AC bug with something new and water cooled, you essentially rip its heart out.

I'd argue that you're making it less reliable too, when was the last time you've heard about an air-cooled boxer blowing a headgasket?

4 hours ago, jonboy1 said:

But equally, there are some buggies that have never quite matched my expectations. Take the FAV for example. I love the body, but everything else on it feels like it has been designed to a price.

The front and rear arms on the FAV/Wild One are unique to it, however the front shocks are off a Hornet, the rear shocks, axles, and gearbox  are from a Frog. They look neat but they always felt really cheap in person, like an old Nikko toy.

7 hours ago, ThunderDragonCy said:

One thing i would say is that i have no interest in fast motors anymore. 

Same here, I like brushless motors/escs if an RC comes with one, but anything quicker than 25mph is too much for my street.

[CMshooter]

My clodbuster.  Had it for 20 or 25 years now. 

 

I do have a couple of blackfoots because it was my first hobby grade rc way back when.  One is modified the way I wanted my original to be, bearings, oil shocks, 19t motor, sticky tires.  One of the blackfoots is still friction shock, 540, manual speed control, and box radio for a trip down memory lane.

 

 

[ADRay1000]

I like to keep my cars stock (except for ball bearings), and usually reserve investing in hop ups for when stock parts wear out or break. 
 

that said, I totally appreciate where others have taken the hobby with engineering projects and DIY parts made with 3D printers and CNC machines. 

[Wooders28]

My tamiya models haven't really seen ,what I would class as, alot of modifications.

I know most of you here, have been on here long enough to have seen my Kyosho builds (RB5 gearbox/6.5t original Ultima , Schumacher 3 plate slipper, 5.5t original mid etc), and the only tamiyas being the Dark Impact slipper shaft / diff mods and the 5700kv/5s DT03, but the rest of my flock (?) are pretty much stock (bar bearings, steel pinions ,brushless motors and running lipo, mainly to make them go, as well as the old 80's vids suggested!!) 

I'm of the opinion, that it's yours to enjoy. If you want to paint it an 'out there' colour and fit flashy lights ,then crack on and enjoy it.

The only real thing that generates the 'how far can you take it' opinion for me, is on the , Speedrun thread......

Eg, is a Lunchbox still a lunchbox, with a spaceframe chassis, 3d printed spool, machined gears, different wheels/tyres and 3d printed double wishbone front end with oil shocks?? 🤷‍♂️

[MadAnt]

I'm gonna say it depends. As someone who has done some modifications, I do have standards that I follow. I will not do anything that hurts the value of an original vintage RC, and certain modifications must be reversible sometimes to maintain the value, but there is also condition and rarity to consider as well. My modified Hornets and Hotshot II are some good examples, not rare and not valuable enough and had condition issues, so no harm is done, even if they become scrap, they are cheap and plenty. However something rare like my Porsche 959 which is mostly complete will not be modified and I will restore it to original one day. 

On 11/15/2024 at 6:31 AM, Saito2 said:

Resto guys bashed hotrodders as boorish, destroying history with their antics. Hotrodders saw resto guys as stuck-up snobs and some almost sadistically hacked up rare cars on the path to completing their vision.

Yeah, sometimes hotrodders hack up pristine nice cars, but we do have hotrodders who save give new life or meanig to what would be junk.

There is a guy I met who has a real nice 50's Chevy pick up, I mean solid car show and driver ready. He is going to replace the chassis and engine with modern stuff. It's freaking terrible that he is going to do this, it's just too nice of a truck, so nice that I would leave it as is. I would understand some tasteful period customizations that's still reversible, that's fine, or if the truck was a bondo bucket or something with sketcky repairs hiding underneath, but gutting a mint example and spending money just to feel modern should be reserved for that junk in worse shape and needs a new life. But whatever, it's their money. I guess I'm a different kind of hotrodder.

[Saito2]

12 hours ago, Losi XXT-CR said:

Not really sure what your definition of "modified" is.

Technically, anything, including simple bearings and a steel pinion, falls under the term modified. I don't personally have a unique definition as I don't really care what other's do with their vehicles. Its all neat to look at.

12 hours ago, Losi XXT-CR said:

have nothing against fast motors, better servo's and good ESC's, oil shocks.... are these mods in your eyes? I have no interest in running crappy Nicd or NiMh batteries on stock silvercans to get poor runtimes and pedestrian performance.

I don't have anything against fast motors, better servo's and good ESC's, oil shocks....but they are technically modifications, not only in my eyes. I certainly have some of those things in some of my cars. I also do run "crappy" Nimh batteries on silvercans in a lot of my vintage Tamiyas because it suits me. What others like is of no consequence to me personally. Life would be boring if we all liked the same things.

I apologize if any of that came off as defensive just aiming for clarification. From the start, I wanted to share opinions on how far we each individually like to take our vehicles down the modification rabbit hole, not come off as judgmental in any way.

[DearHighRacingClub]

Tamiya themselves, have always encouraged mods. In the instructions you can see how to swap a 380 motor for a 540 (Grasshopper) and to all add ballbearings

There have been official Hop-Ups and third party parts since like day one?

Now, I'm on a ORV love trip and in my search for what to get I've noticed it's entirely possible to build a Frog with a metal ORV chassis, new front suspension, diecast trailing arms, new gearbox/dif, new wheels, new ... just about everything including a body. If I did that, would that be a "Frog"?

It would not, imho. So, I'm picking out the parts that's REALLY needed simply because Tamiya doesn't/didn't offer them

And it's just a couple of carbon plates for the gearbox for me. But I will make a bunch of mods that would be entirely doable back in 1986

That's keeping the Tamiya spirit!

Cheers,

Ole

[DearHighRacingClub]

17 hours ago, Saito2 said:

I apologize if any of that came off as defensive just aiming for clarification. From the start, I wanted to share opinions on how far we each individually like to take our vehicles down the modification rabbit hole, not come off as judgmental in any way.

Knock it off. I follow you because you're smart and talk a lot

This is why I come to The Club and don't google "how can i get my grasshopper to run 150MPH?"

+20 years of hardcore nerds. You lot have saved me a lot of money on also cost me a lot of money

[El Gecko]

On 11/15/2024 at 3:39 AM, BuggyDad said:

I think if I had two of something like the SRB, one stock and one I'd tinkered with to the nth degree, that might maximise my appreciation of the original, as well as show the joy of the modification journey.

This is where I'm actually very lucky. Maybe half my cars are mostly stock configurations, to preserve and appreciate them, but then I've got another few of the same chassis which don't have as much sentimental or historical value, so they're the day-to-day runners, and they get any mods they need for worry-free driving.

 

20 hours ago, MadAnt said:

Yeah, sometimes hotrodders hack up pristine nice cars, but we do have hotrodders who save give new life or meanig to what would be junk.

There is a guy I met who has a real nice 50's Chevy pick up, I mean solid car show and driver ready. He is going to replace the chassis and engine with modern stuff. It's freaking terrible that he is going to do this, it's just too nice of a truck, so nice that I would leave it as is. I would understand some tasteful period customizations that's still reversible, that's fine, or if the truck was a bondo bucket or something with sketcky repairs hiding underneath, but gutting a mint example and spending money just to feel modern should be reserved for that junk in worse shape and needs a new life. But whatever, it's their money. I guess I'm a different kind of hotrodder.

I agree with you 100%, and I'd say I'm one of those hotrodders who saves, gives new life to old junk that has been neglected and left for dead.

And I would also say that you're actually a hotrodder and that the guy cutting up a pristine truck is actually a hack. Just like the hacks on all the car restoration "reality" shows, he's taking a shortcut and focusing on only the looks, i.e. he wants the "cool look" of an old truck without having to do the legitimate work of restoring one from the junkyard. Whereas a true hotrodder buys a blank canvas, an empty shell, and fabricates it into whatever they want, because they already know they're going to replace basically the whole drivetrain, brakes, interior, etc. anyway. A true hotrodder also knows at least something about the history of the vehicles, and would usually try to preserve that history rather than destroy it. I understand that people want modern power and reliability and want to drive something cool and unique, but fer cryin out loud start with a basket case instead of a carpet queen. Actual running and driving, completely vintage vehicles are only getting rarer by the day.

[Wheel_Nut]

On 11/15/2024 at 11:36 PM, Losi XXT-CR said:

I doubt either of these things are "real" issues for most used across most models.... seems more like cutting your nose to spite your face really.

They are just toys of course.  Not owning a Hotshot leaves space for other things and different toys.   I couldn’t stand to own a car with banana shaped front shock shaft.  

[markbt73]

The way I see it, it's my car, I'll do with it as I please.

But what pleases me is usually not that invasive, except when it comes to dirt-common and inexpensive models. I hate plastic bushings with a passion, so I run everything with ball bearings. And while I do have a couple of cars with mechanical speed controls, I treat them like an old house with knob-and-tube wiring: I'm constantly aware of the risks. I will only trust the old standard 3-step Tamiya ones, because I understand them and they're easy to service and rebuild. Everything else gets an ESC. I also only have a couple of vehicles that use old AM radios; the modern 2.4g stuff is just too good to ignore. And I'm slowly transitioning more over to lipo batteries, for the run times and punchiness.

As for motors, I have tried and shunned brushless. I just can't stand the "feel" of it. Even spinning the wheels by hand when the vehicle is off feels wrong. The vast majority of my cars use a standard 540 silver-can motor, and it's plenty for me, though a few cars do have old ROAR stock motors or mild modifieds. I like the feel of a car having to work for its speed, and not just blasting off into the distance. And I never was a great driver, so lower speeds keep me out of trouble, and saves me a lot on parts replacement.

When it comes to structural changes, I try to limit that to making an actual improvement, and I try to "keep it in the family." I'm working on a way to adapt Kyosho Optima steering bellcranks into a Hi-Rider Vette, for example, because the Hi-Rider's steering, frankly, sucks. I will enjoy it more if it steers better, so it's in my interest to improve the steering. But I'll leave the bouncy suspension alone, because that's part of the model's personality. I'm much more careful with actual vintage models, especially ones that stand no chance of being re-released. I'd rather not run something old and classic if it won't drive properly, and just enjoy it on the shelf - though I do plan to at least try driving everything I have once.

All bets are off, however, when it comes to something like a Grasshopper/Hornet. I'll chop them up and make parts and alter things in all sorts of ways, because why not? I have half a dozen of them, parts are cheap, and if for some reason I wanted to go back to a stock one, they're not exactly hard to find. Same thing with a Clod, though it's admittedly not as cheap to modify those. It's the best part of the re-releases, in my opinion: not the nostalgia for how things were, but the chance to try the things you couldn't try before. And if it doesn't work, well, take it apart and try something else. No harm done, except a few extra holes drilled in a piece of plastic.