DB-01 Durga. Can 17 years old car be fun?

[skom25]

Introduction:

Here it is, Durga:

In my opinion, probably one of the last, together with DF-03, medium level Buggies made by Tamiya. Maybe there are better and more reliable cars in current offer, but I have feeling that Durga has that simple, racing soul. No weird solutions and parts limited to minimum.

I bought it really cheap. I know that it is bit risky topic, because car is very old and there are not too many Hop Ups available. Luckily, I found that my LHS has a lot spare parts in stock, so I do not have to worry too much about plastic parts, which are surprisingly cheap. Few major Hops Ups are still available, so no drama here.

Plan for build:

No "Bling" parts this time. First reason is fact, that they are just not available locally. Second reason are prices. If available, Hop Ups are really expensive.

I will focus on mechanical parts, not to make it like Tamiya Christmas Tree. Few Hop Ups here and there, but no crazy transformation like I did with XV-01.

Will I run it? Of course! 

Do I have plan to run it like crazy and do not care? No, I have better cars to do this.

Hop Ups:

As I wrote, I will not use many upgrades. I had some time to read many Topics and I found two major issues with kit:

• Diff plates glued to outdrives
• Wheel Hexes or even lack of Hex on rear

I decided to fix both of them, before I even start build.

To build better diffs, I decide to buy TRF steel outdrives. They do not require to glue diff plates. Unfortunately, they are really expensive. However, I checked LHS catalogue and found solution:

Two sets of outdrives cost 374 PLN which is around 85 Euros.

I bought TRF501X parts bag #9404702 for 340 PLN ( around 77 Euros), which contains:

• Two sets of outdrives #51286
• 16x 3mm balls
• 4 x diff plates
• 2 x diff springs
• Slipper pads
• Slipper pressure plates
• Slipper spring
• Slipper shafts
• Slipper spacers

Bold parts cannot be used in DB-01, because are different. Rest of the parts can be used, because are identical as in DB-01.

Summarizing, I bought outdrives and a lot of spare parts for less than steel outdrives sold separately.

To solve issue with wheels mount, I bought aluminium 12 mm hexes dedicated for DB-01.

I also ordered Slipper Clutch, to save drivetrain a bit and just gain some experience with higher end solutions.

Will I buy any other Hop Ups?

Maybe front CVDs, better shocks and stabilizers. I do not have anything more on list and I do not expect that something will appear there.

[Pylon80]

You have obviously made a decision on the outdrives already. Any reason why you didn't want to glue the diff plates per the manual? Just curious.

[skom25]

3 minutes ago, Pylon80 said:

You have obviously made a decision on the outdrives already. Any reason why you didn't want to glue the diff plates per the manual? Just curious.

It was reported as a main issue with ball diffs in DB-01. They can separate from outdrives, start to rotate and make mess. I was really surprised that there are not too many issues with standard kit, so why just not to fix them?

Probably it is not huge issue when you have experience with ball diffs and you are able to identify issue instantly. I have strange feeling, that it will take me some time to learn how to maintain diffs.

Summarizing shortly, I wanted to eliminate weak spot and do not think too long about this.

Is it good decision? I am not sure, parts were really expensive. I bought them because kit was really cheap, so at the end it was not tragedy.

 

[Pylon80]

38 minutes ago, skom25 said:

Summarizing shortly, I wanted to eliminate weak spot and do not think too long about this.

I think you made the right decision. All fixed, and you can move on 👍

39 minutes ago, skom25 said:

I have strange feeling, that it will take me some time to learn how to maintain diffs.

Forums and other social media are terrible at shedding light on technical subjects like this. People confuse things quickly, me included 🤣 so why not see what the pros are doing? Spencer Rivkin made this video a few years ago (if he didn't build his diffs properly he wouldn't drive at the level that he does):

Then how he breaks them in: 

Obviously he doesn't waste time sanding his plates and just opens a new set after each race weekend since he doesn't pay for them. But the point is you don't need to sand new ones either.

I really hope you take the Durga to an off-road track at some point as well, hopefully there's once not too far from where you live.

[skom25]

@Pylon80 I had around two weeks from information that friend bought kit for me, to moment when I received it today. I spent a lot of time on Forums and watching videos, how to build and maintain Ball Diffs, including mentioned above. Shortly speaking, I am Ball Diffs expert now, at least in theory  In practice, it is how it is. At least I have good knowledge how to build them and how they work. I think it is really important, to understand how things work, to avoid mistakes.

BTW, there is "funny" story related to Ball Diffs in DB-01. Tamiya manual is very unclear and it is really easy to skip step, which shows to rotate Diff before installation of screw, spring and nut. To be honest, it is so weird, that despite I knew about this and checked manual, I was not able to find this step. It took me a while, to see what is going on. A lot of people built Diffs wrong and effect was quite quick and spectacular: burned or melted Diffs after run or two.

[Pylon80]

9 minutes ago, skom25 said:

@Pylon80 I had around two weeks from information that friend bought kit for me, to moment when I received it today. I spent a lot of time on Forums and watching videos, how to build and maintain Ball Diffs, including mentioned above. Shortly speaking, I am Ball Diffs expert now, at least in theory  In practice, it is how it is. At least I have good knowledge how to build them and how they work. I think it is really important, to understand how things work, to avoid mistakes.

BTW, there is "funny" story related to Ball Diffs in DB-01. Tamiya manual is very unclear and it is really easy to skip step, which shows to rotate Diff before installation of screw, spring and nut. To be honest, it is so weird, that despite I knew about this and checked manual, I was not able to find this step. It took me a while, to see what is going on. A lot of people built Diffs wrong and effect was quite quick and spectacular: burned or melted Diffs after run or two.

You have done your homework and I'm sure you'll have the mechanical sense to avoid making them slip at full power for 5 min. I could imagine young kids do just that though 😐

[Kol__]

Nice build plans @skom25, keeping it simple. Have you considered the geared diffs for the DB-01? That's what I've gone with for mine, as I intend to run it. And they weren't expensive👍

[skom25]

1 hour ago, Kol__ said:

Nice build plans @skom25, keeping it simple. Have you considered the geared diffs for the DB-01? That's what I've gone with for mine, as I intend to run it. And they weren't expensive👍

Of course I did!

However, availibility is very limited. I found them only in one or two shops. Price was quite high, and when I added shipping cost, it was even worse.

At the end I just decided to try Ball Diffs. I heard bad things about them, but I also heard good things. It will be just new experience.

I am also not huge fan of oil diffs. They tend to leak and make a lot of mess.

I am not sure if Ball Diffs are part of this, but I was really impressed how smooth and quiet is DB-01.

[Kol__]

Well of course you did, silly me, I need to work on my mind reading skills.

[skom25]

10 minutes ago, Kol__ said:

Well of course you did, silly me, I need to work on my mind reading skills.

Sorry, it was not my intention  English is not my first language, so sometimes my posts can be understood in a wrong way. 

I just wanted to say, that I checked them because they were mentioned many times and they were on the top of list of upgrades. Unfortunately, as I wrote they are not widely available and if I remember, discontinued, so there is no hope that they will appear again.

[Kol__]

No problem buddy, I was only jesting. You can get the DB-01 gear diffs on Buyee for about £20👍

[matisse]

4 hours ago, skom25 said:

@Pylon80 I had around two weeks from information that friend bought kit for me, to moment when I received it today. I spent a lot of time on Forums and watching videos, how to build and maintain Ball Diffs, including mentioned above. Shortly speaking, I am Ball Diffs expert now, at least in theory  In practice, it is how it is. At least I have good knowledge how to build them and how they work. I think it is really important, to understand how things work, to avoid mistakes.

BTW, there is "funny" story related to Ball Diffs in DB-01. Tamiya manual is very unclear and it is really easy to skip step, which shows to rotate Diff before installation of screw, spring and nut. To be honest, it is so weird, that despite I knew about this and checked manual, I was not able to find this step. It took me a while, to see what is going on. A lot of people built Diffs wrong and effect was quite quick and spectacular: burned or melted Diffs after run or two.

Tbf iirc the Factory Team Plates he uses are precision sanded already..

You obvs dont need to sand, but the diff lasts longer and works better if you do, just like a well built gear diff as opposed to  poorly built one. 

[Pylon80]

26 minutes ago, matisse said:

Tbf iirc the Factory Team Plates he uses are precision sanded already..

You obvs dont need to sand, but the diff lasts longer and works better if you do, just like a well built gear diff as opposed to  poorly built one. 

You have a point about Rivkin's plate being Factory Team for sure. But my theory is that a groove gets created during break-in anyway. So you can sand very fine but in the end the balls roll inside the groove, not on the polished surfaces you worked so hard to create. This argument also defeats that of sanding fine vs sanding coarse. In the end the groove is what matters and is unavoidable, although fairly minimal if you re-sand your plates every 3 runs like I'm sure some people might do, not me. I just rebuilt a diff last weekend and used 600 grit only and the diff was just as smooth after breaking as when I used to waste my time going though 400/1000/2000 grit. Hopefully I will save someone else the hassle of doing things that do not make a difference to the very vast majority of hobbyists.

And sorry for hijacking the thread @skom25!

[skom25]

9 hours ago, Pylon80 said:

And sorry for hijacking the thread @skom25!

As long as it is related to build, and it is, you are welcome. No problem for me. I learned a lot reading discussion like this in other Topics, so I can say only: Thank you!

Preparations:

Screws.

I am not huge fan ( should I say hater?) of kit screws. Hex slots are better in almost each aspect, compared to Crosshead slots.

There were three options available:

• Stainless screws
  • Nice, but bit soft and do not look good
• Tamiya Hex screws
  • Best solution, but bit expensive and availability is limted
• High quality black screws
  • Not as "premium" as Tamiya, but cheaper and look better than stainless

I decided to go for screws from 3rd point. My initial plan was to use Tamiya screws, because I already have a lot of them, but I am not able to buy all required sizes.

Below you can see one screw. Yesterday I ordered all required* to build car and I hope, they will be the same quality. Total cost with many spares, was around 10 Euros.

*there are few screws in kit in strange sizes, like e.g. 3x23. This is not a standard size, so I will just use kit screws. Normally I would just cut longer screws, but I will not be able to totally avoid crosshead screws during build, so I will just use them in few places.

Unfortunately ( fortunately for budget), there are not too many places where Blue Aluminium screws can be used. It seems that each part is somehow used to make chassis stronger, so I will avoid weak aluminium screws. Probably there will be few places, but for 100% it will not be like in XV-01.

Ball connectors:

I was surprised, when I noticed that DB-01 uses long 25 mm adjusters. It means, that turnbuckles are calculated for this size and it is hard to change them for shorter adjusters, if you want to use e.g. Hard Hex Connectors. It is possible with longer turnbuckles, but it is another rather expensive modification. I am still not fully sure how I will do this, but below you will find possibilities and first thoughts.

Ball connectors types:

As you know, there are three main types of 5 mm connectors. Going from left:

• Standard connector with thread
• Ball nut
• Hard Hex connector

Hard Hex Connectors:

I absolutely prefer Hard Hex and reinforced adjusters. I used them in both of my cars. Maintenance is really easy, they can be washed quickly and then are almost like new. 

However, there are two issues:

• They are expensive
• If they come loose and you do not have open adjusters, there is no possibility to tighten them without removing adjuster, which is not a thing you want to do

Ball nuts are like compromise. You can install them in three different ways:

• Use grub screw 
• Use screw from opposite side of nut, so it will not come loose like a grub screw
• Drill hole and just put screw through and use nut on opposite side

First method does not work in my opinion. It is annoying and there are lot of issues.

Second method gives really strong connection, but screwing nut with adjuster attached is very annoying and ineffective

Third method is the best, but in many cases you will have to modify part. I do not want to do this.

Standard connectors with thread are somewhere between, but I do not like them at all. Why?

I do not like to screw them with nut driver. It is far from comfort with Hex slots connectors. 

You can tighten them without disassembly of adjuster, but you are not able to screw them in without removing adjuster. 

There is also that "lip" at the end of thread, which flatten thread in part a bit. It is not a huge issue*, but I do not understand purpose of that part.

*it is an issue, if you try to use them with aluminium part.

Solution?

Definitely I will use Hard Hex connectors to mount shocks, because they have open mounts. No reason to make life harder with standard connectors.

Turnbuckles. I have a plan to use Standard Connector with 25 mm adjuster on one side and Hard Hex with reinforced adjuster on opposite.

Why?

It will not ruin my budget, because I will be able to use turnbuckles from kit. I will just move it 3 mm on one side, so instead of 10 mm of thread on both sides with long adjusters, I will have 7 mm on both sides with long and standard adjuster. Hard Hex connector with open adjuster will give me possibility to quickly remove link, to have access to e.g. Dog Bones etc. I will do the same with steering parts.

I am not sure on which side I will use Hard Hex connectors: shock tower or uprights. It is an open topic and I still have some time for decision.

[BuggyDad]

18 hours ago, skom25 said:

In my opinion, probably one of the last, together with DF-03, medium level Buggies made by Tamiya. Maybe there are better and more reliable cars in current offer, but I have feeling that Durga has that simple, racing soul. No weird solutions and parts limited to minimum.

I'm looking forward to your build and opinions on this. I don't know much about it but it has always struck me as it has you, like Tamiya got good at this class of car and then stopped dead, and it's a class of car that'd suit me too - great to drive round a track, practical, simple and tough enough, not overly expensive, still retains a bit of character, don't care if it's a fraction behind the racers' pace. And for <€100 you can just have fun with it. 

Writing that gives me an itch to drive my TD4. 

On ball diffs my sense is crack on and see how you go. You've done far more research than most and you're obviously meticulous. Far more so than I am and I haven't had problems. There are obviously mistakes one can make but there also seems to be a range of opinions and methods that work. It doesn't sound like there's only one way. Eg I've sanded my plates but 🤷. With mine you can feel a sort of buzz as you rotate them but I wouldn't call them rough at all, and they work. I think I have four. The M-08 with Tamiya diff grease - the most free - the buggies with plumbers grease - tighter action. 

[skom25]

Few mentioned Hop Ups arrived, few more are on the way ( it is hard to call them Hop Ups).

Hexes for front/ rear and slipper.

As I mentioned before, I have two slipper pads from TRF parts bag. They have different part number than those for DB-01 and in fact, they look differently. However, dimensions seem to be exactly the same, only material is different.

Do you have idea what is the difference? Do you think I can use them? I do not expect answer "no", but it is always better to ask first someone with experience.

I am bit surprised, because I thought that slipper pads are like very stiff plates. It seems that they are more like thick paper.

What will arrive today?

- TRF Ball Diff grease

- Hex wheels

Yes, I was stupid enough to buy Hexes but I did not order wheels. I had luck, because I ordered last two pairs of white DB-01 wheels yesterday.

[Grumpy pants]

Another great thread @skom25 👏

[skom25]

Praparations #2

Not everything went as expected. Hex screws which I ordered were not so good as I expected. Most of them were totally fine, but some sizes were rather bad. In that case, I decided to keep them for other cars and try to collect as much Tamiya screws as possible.

Unfortunately, not everything went as expected once again, because not all sizes were available in LHS. I bought few packs of TRF Hex screws, but they are bit different than those which you can normally buy. At the end, I have all necessary screws and will try to not mix different screws in the same area. It should be fine.

Right top: Tamiya Screws + aluminium + spacers + kit screws

Right bottom: standard Screws

Left: Tamiya used screws

I also bought spare chassis tub. It is interesting, because it is different that kit version. It has different space for battery and material is not exactly the same.

[skom25]

Chassis tub

As always, I used Thread Forming Tool from Tamiya, to prepare holes. I used a lot of Ball Diff Grease to reduce friction and heat. It went smooth, but it is always bit stressful, especially with kit which is not widely available.

Work with reinforced chassis is much better than with soft ABS. It requires more force and grease, work is slower, but you can clearly feel when tool stops. Standard TT-02 uses ABS chassis tub and it is really easy to go too deep and make a hole in chassis.

Attention!

If you have not used Tap Tool before and have plan to do this, trust me, use a lot of grease. If you start to make threads without grease, especially in hard parts, there is a huge chance that you will burn/ melt plastic.

Surprises? Few.

Holes on the center of chassis, where covers are screwed into tub are very deep ( around 14 mm). However, it is not possible to make threads deeper than around 8 mm. Tool just stops. I did not want to use force to make deeper threads. It should be totally enough to attach parts, because screws stick out from cover for around 8 mm, not more. It is definitely not some kind of production issue, because all holes were exactly the same.

It seems that it is possible to widen holes with 3 mm drill and use nuts on bottom, to attach covers. In is almost like "plug & play" with Diffs covers and bit more complicated with center cover, because there are no holes, just slots for nuts.

[Pylon80]

The lower deck kind of looks like a TA-05verII one, wondering if they're the same part? Very cool.

[skom25]

They look similar, but definitely it is not the same part.

Motor mount, steering and battery posts installed.

I am not huge fan of crosshead screws, but sometimes there is no choice. Motor mount requires 3x23 and 3x14 screws, which are not available in Hex version. Normally I would try to cut longer or find other solution, but as I wrote before, there are other places where crosshead screws are used and I cannot avoid them at the end.

I did not want to mix them, just for better look, so I used crosshead screws in all places to attach motor mount. 

Blue screw holds that small cover. I have not found steel 3x6 screws in LHS, so decided to use aluminium. I will add protective sticker to seal gap and protect fragile aluminium screw head.

Below battery posts I used 3 mm aluminium spacers, just to break that little boring black mass of plastic. However, I am not sure if I can recommend that. In manual, you will find that rear post should be set in particular position. I think plastic spacer will compress a bit to give more adjustment without risk of stripping threads. 

[skom25]

Expanses

It seems, that budget was stretched so quick, that I even have not noticed that. I tried to calculate everything and it was not bad. Then I needed minor Hop Ups here and there and at the end, it does not look good.

Because of that, I decided to limit my expanses to minimum. I always make the same mistake and try to build car, like it would be my last build and I try to make it perfect which costs fortune. I am happy that at least for now I am aware of this and will try to not make this mistake again and again.

I need also to remember, that probably it will not be proper runner as my other cars. Definitely I will run it, but I will try to be rather gentle and not too risk too much. I just have feeling, that one big crash can end life of this car.

For now, plans changed a bit, but before I do anything, I need to ask you:

• How crucial are front CVDs in DB-01? I know that in general CVDs are better, but to be honest, it is a bit annoying to replace brand new, rather expensive parts. Now I think I will stay with Dog Bones, unless you know really good reason why I should go for CVDs.
• Shocks. I had big plans to go for Aeration Shocks. Then I started to think that they are way too expensive to have some fun on asphalt/ pavement. I thought about new Aluminium shocks or even use set which I already have in DT-02, but they are bit tired and I am not sure if I want to use them. Probably I will stay with highly tuned CVAs, unless again you know good reasons why I should go for better shocks.
• Sway Bars. They are really cheap and I think that it can be fun just to try Sway Bars in a well designed car. What do you think?

Suspension

Small progress here. As you can see, I used aluminium blocks. Why? Kit parts are bit weird to be honest. Plastic is really hard. Despite I used tap, I was absolutely not sure if I tightened them already or not. They just did not feel right for me. It is hard to imagine, that people installed them without using tap and just used kit crosshead screw even without grease.

Instead of plastic spacers, I used aluminium. This time it was easy, because spacers have standard 1/2/3 mm thickness, not something like 0.8 mm etc like in e.g. XV-01 if I remember correctly.

I also used resin suspension balls which I had in spares. They are bit longer than kit balls, so together with aluminium spacers, they give almost slope free suspension. There is absolutely minimal play on one side on rear and less than 0.5 mm on both arms on front.

Overall impressions so far?

No major issues, but I found that not all holes are aligned perfectly. I had minor issue to fit motor mount. I just had to screw one screw, move mount a bit and then proceed with next one. It was bit worse with rear suspension mount, because it was really hard to align holes on the bottom of chassis. I was even afraid that I stripped threads, because one screw was not perfectly vertical at first try, but it seems that everything is fine now.

[skom25]

Diff Covers/ Shock Towers

I prepared set mentioned above. No surprises here, but again, alignment of holes was not perfect. Quality of parts is on really high level. I will add body posts soon. Unfortunately, I had to buy spares because I made one thread bit on angle and post was not perfectly vertically. No big deal, because spares were around 3 Euros and I had plan to buy them, to have spare wing mounts.

As you can see I installed Hard Hex Ball Connectors with 1 mm spacers. There are two reasons why I used spacers:

Hard Hex Connectors are shorther than standard and need 1 mm spacer to place them in exactly the same position as stock connectors.

Second reason is that they just look good and again, break that black plastic shape.

Wing

I bought wings set. Rear will be just a spare or different option but I was mainly interested in front. I think it will look absolutely amazing. I am not sure how I will paint body, but at least now, I think I will leave both wings transparent.

Stabilizers

I cannot say more than... They were cheap. I just bought them but I am not sure if I will install them. Access to mount holes is really easy and they can be added even to fully assembled car.

It seems that I cannot avoid this any longer and it is time to build diffs. I would lie if I would say that I am not nervous and know what to do. 

[skom25]

Front Uprights

What a nightmare!

I had the same situation with XV-01, which uses the same Caster Blocks as DB-01. I built one side and was totally fine. Smooth, no binding.

However, opposite side was just stiff. Exactly as in XV-01. I started to check each part, used even spare uprights to check if I e.g. screwed King Pins on angle. No difference at all. I found that one hole in Caster Block is just tight. I used XV-02 Caster Block in the same upright and it was totally smooth...

It seems that Tamiya has issue with mold for Caster Block, maybe even from beginning. I read in one review of DB-01 about similar issue.

Because Caster Blocks are not available and if they would be, there would be no difference, there are two ways to fix issue:

Use TRF 501X Caster Blocks #51273. Good option, but it seems that they have to be used with universals, which is not a good information for my wallet.

Second option is to use XV-02 Caster Blocks. They are compatible with XV-01, but for some reason are not mentioned as compatible with DB-01. Difference between DB-01 and XV-02 Caster Blocks is only angle. Stock part has 10 degrees of Caster, XV-02 has 6 degrees. Except of this, parts are exactly the same.

I tried to use them and...

I really have no idea why they are not compatible according to Tamiya documentation. I checked if there is no collision with parts around, binding, limited movement etc. Everything seems to be absolutely fine. 

In that case, I suspect that it is about handling. Will I feel difference of 4 degrees? I have doubts. I am even not sure how Caster affects handling.

I think that I will stay with mentioned parts, however I am interested in your opinion. Maybe there is something I do not know and it is better to buy TRF set I mentioned above.

Edit:

Despite they are not mentioned as compatible, it seems that they are officially compatible at the end...

This is packaging of XV-02 Caster Blocks:

DB, TD chassis cars.

@ThunderDragonCy maybe you will know answer. DB-01 RRR uses the same rear Uprights as XV-01, but with universals as kit part. Do you know if I can use XV-01 Uprights with standard Dog Bones?

[ThunderDragonCy]

20 hours ago, skom25 said:

Front Uprights

What a nightmare!

I had the same situation with XV-01, which uses the same Caster Blocks as DB-01. I built one side and was totally fine. Smooth, no binding.

However, opposite side was just stiff. Exactly as in XV-01. I started to check each part, used even spare uprights to check if I e.g. screwed King Pins on angle. No difference at all. I found that one hole in Caster Block is just tight. I used XV-02 Caster Block in the same upright and it was totally smooth...

It seems that Tamiya has issue with mold for Caster Block, maybe even from beginning. I read in one review of DB-01 about similar issue.

Because Caster Blocks are not available and if they would be, there would be no difference, there are two ways to fix issue:

Use TRF 501X Caster Blocks #51273. Good option, but it seems that they have to be used with universals, which is not a good information for my wallet.

Second option is to use XV-02 Caster Blocks. They are compatible with XV-01, but for some reason are not mentioned as compatible with DB-01. Difference between DB-01 and XV-02 Caster Blocks is only angle. Stock part has 10 degrees of Caster, XV-02 has 6 degrees. Except of this, parts are exactly the same.

I tried to use them and...

I really have no idea why they are not compatible according to Tamiya documentation. I checked if there is no collision with parts around, binding, limited movement etc. Everything seems to be absolutely fine. 

In that case, I suspect that it is about handling. Will I feel difference of 4 degrees? I have doubts. I am even not sure how Caster affects handling.

I think that I will stay with mentioned parts, however I am interested in your opinion. Maybe there is something I do not know and it is better to buy TRF set I mentioned above.

Edit:

Despite they are not mentioned as compatible, it seems that they are officially compatible at the end...

This is packaging of XV-02 Caster Blocks:

DB, TD chassis cars.

@ThunderDragonCy maybe you will know answer. DB-01 RRR uses the same rear Uprights as XV-01, but with universals as kit part. Do you know if I can use XV-01 Uprights with standard Dog Bones?

I don't know. Sorry