The Ultima problem

[Saito2]

Back in the day. the US 2wd racing scene was dominated by the RC10. I have to admit, being a Tamiya fanatic, I hated all the press that car got in the magazines. I swear there was probably a conversion article on how to make a toaster oven based on the RC10. Those days are past and while the current flood of RC10 re-release flavors have personally left me a bit cold, studying the development and the people behind the original RC10's success over the years has earned my utmost respect. I have 8 originals and 1 first gen re-release in my collection now.

Back in '87 however, I was ecstatic to see the Ultima, boldly proclaiming to be the next world champ, then make good on that boast by sweeping the Worlds with a 1-2-3 punch. I've always appreciated Japanese cars more and while it wasn't Tamiya Foxes killing RC10's, Kyosho's upstart was pretty satisfying. Having had my hands on both, I ultimately (pun?) found the Ultima to be the superior product in my humble opinion over the short arm, 6-gear RC10. But despite all this, the Ultima never had the success of the RC10. Perhaps it was because the RC10 was first to dominate and perhaps it was because the RC10 was a domestic product with all the parts support that goes with that in my country.

I also wonder if it was how the street version of the Ultima was introduced to the US public. The original Ultima looked nothing like the ones that won the top three spots at the Worlds. While the bones of a superior racer were there, it wasn't the complete package. So, despite all the parts to build a winner being there through the aftermarket or Kyosho's own Option House parts line, Associated managed to stay in the lead here in the US, still pumping out the same old short arm, 6-gear car as fast as they could, struggling to meet demand.

The Losi JR-X2 became the car to pose the real threat to the RC10's dominance. The JR-X2's hook of including all the popular hop-ups of the period in the kit from the start plus the benefit of being US domestic did what the Ultima failed to do here unfortunately. However it could be theorized that the Associated's humiliation at the '87 Worlds (whether it was the Ultima's slightly more polished design or simply down to the tires they had) and advent of the JR-X2 lead to their all-out Stealth Car fueled assault on the '89 Worlds and beyond. Competition improves the breed after all.

I'm curious how the Ultima did and was received in other parts of the world less touched by the RC10's influence. Any insight?

[Twinfan]

I wasn't really into the racing scene here in the UK back in the day, but from what I remember of the magazines at the time (mid to late eighties) it was all about Tamiyas and Schumachers.  I don't remember much coverage being given to Kyoshos.  Maybe because they were fairly expensive and we had our domestic CATs and Cougars?

[Saito2]

53 minutes ago, Twinfan said:

it was all about Tamiyas and Schumachers

Its interesting how being produced in a domestic market changes everything. It was all Associated and Tamiya here with some Kyosho thrown it. Kyosho came here via the Great Planes/Tower Hobbies juggernaut of the era and featured very prominently in their multi-page ads. Schumacher 4wds were known here to be difficult to assemble yet some of the best performing buggies in that segment and very elusive. I think Trinity imported them IIRC. Yokomo had their deal with Associated to get them in the door.

[Beetlemankurt]

Great topic and huge Ultima fan here! In New Zealand the RC10 was not really present to any large degree in the golden era of RC. I remember seeing it in ads in magazines but I don't believe I ever even got to race against one on the track.

The Ultimas were a real game changer in NZ and were immensely popular. I first remember seeing original ultimas on the track and being blown away by how smooth they sounded and drove. When the Turbo Ultima arrived, it was like something from another world and alongside the arrival of the Optima Mid, these two cars dominated for some time. The arrival of Schumachers mixed things up a bit as they were also very popular in NZ but the Ultimas did seem more robust to me (perhaps I'm biased).

I got my Ultima Pro in 89 (we got the Japanese version here with the alloy bottom chassis) and it did amazingly, and as you may be aware I'm still racing this today (just started again this year). It's a strong car and all these years on is still holding up well on the track. 

The JRX2 was the first US buggy to really make an impact here as I recall and it's success was also phenomenal. I ended up buying a JRX Pro which Ii must get around to restoring at some point however shipping of parts to NZ from the US is ludicrously expensive....ah well....someday.

Anyway, always had a soft spot for Ultimas and Kyoshos engineering and have now added a JJ to the table. Love em! 

Great topic and can't wait to hear others experience. 

Kurt

 

[Wheel_Nut]

I was a semi-regular club racer in the late 80s.  I had a couple of Tamiya cars and the classic style RC10 Gold pan which was a big investment when I was in high-shool.  Especially considering my father made some effort to prevent me from racing model cars.

The Ultima was a rare car in Australia, as there was much better support for both the RC10 and JR-X2.  These US models had so many upgrade options available, even though they were decent out of the box.  The talk at the time was the Ultima 87 Worlds car was a highly modified prototype and you would need to spend a lot of cash to get a similar spec car.  I was on a super-tight budget so it was completely out of the question for me.

 

 

[Pablo68]

I am in Western Australia, and we're a tad isolated here. For me it was all Tamiya in the hobby stores here. The major hobby stores over here didn't even stock Kyosho spares.
I don't remember seeing Associated here as a brand either, but as I wasn't a racer I can't be sure.
I got my first Ultima from a mate in 89. It blew me away, loved the design ever since. I did hit a kerb with it which bent the chassis and broke the radio plate. It took a couple months to get a hobby store which did have some Kyosho kits and stuff to order in a new radio plate for me.

Unfortunately that Ultima was later stolen from me. I have the re-re Ultima and a couple  OG ones, one restored to running condition the other waiting.

[markbt73]

I think the Ultima's standard spec probably had a lot to do with it. Those old red shocks weren't great, and even in the late '80s, nobody who was serious about racing wanted a roll cage or a driver figure (unless your local club required them). And plastic wheel bushings? In a "race" car? It looked, and still looks, amazing, but not as "serious" looking as the RC10. It wasn't until the Ultima Pro that Kyosho really got the formula right for racing: flat plate chassis, one-piece body, and their gold shocks (which are to this day just about the best shocks ever made for RC vehicles). And by then, the JRX2 was out.

There's another factor I'll throw in as well: Both the RC10 and the JRX2 use SAE hardware, available in any corner hardware store in the US. These days, you can find metric hardware easily, but back then it was tougher. You pretty much had to go to the hobby shop if you lost a wheel nut or stripped a screw head or something. But if you needed a 4-40 screw or a 6-32 lock nut, you might find one in those baby-food jars your grandpa kept in his workshop, and if not, those drawers in the back of True Value Hardware had you covered.

[Saito2]

We lost our True Value Hardware store last year and I miss it greatly. It's hardware selection was unbelievably dense compared to the stupid big box orange hardware store that moved into town, ultimately driving them out of business. I digress. That's a good point about the SAE hardware @markbt73.

I admit my viewpoint is biased as there was no way I could afford an RC10 or Ultima BITD, so my experience was limited to the Ultima re-release. Granted, the re-release s a lot closer to a Turbo Ultima in mechanical terms. Just having it in my hands, it seems like a more fully engineered vehicle or perhaps more polished in its execution, even if the original was under-equipped from the start. The basic bones of the car almost feels like they're a bit of an undiscovered, or perhaps undervalued, gem. For all its genius and ground-breaking engineering, the RC10 was quite rough around the edges. The novel 6-gear tranny, while unique, was clearly not the way forward even without the egg-shaped gears. 

I also wonder how often racers upgraded back then. Cars aren't particularly cheap. While the Kyosho (Cox here in the US) Scorpions were superior to the SRB, there were a ton of accessories out for the SRBs. For racers that had invested heavily in upgrading their SRBs it might have hard to justify tossing all that investment aside for the Scorpion, then again the Frog did take off before the RC10, so who knows. This is all just guesswork on my part at this point. 

One thing's certain, the RC10 was such a leap forward that you pretty much had to get one in the States if you wanted to be successful at the track. If most racers had an RC10 or had invested in one before '87, that might cut into the Ultima's potential sales along with all the other issues we're previously mentioned. Associated had perhaps rested on it laurels a bit, not only at the '87 Worlds, but also in the marketplace. After all, when you can't keep up with demand and the RC10, one product amazingly,  was driving rapid business and production expansion, its a bit easier for something more advanced and better equipped like the JR-X2 to sneak up on you.

[Wooders28]

I have a real soft spot for the Ultima!!

After my first car being a Frog, and it was a real let down tbh, as the gearbox its hex driveshafts & diff would just be a constant issue, especially if you went for a hot motor, like a Parma K stock...(obviously not a hot motor, but the Frogs useless gears thought so..🤦‍♂️) 

When i first saw the Ultima in a Radio Race Car advert, I had to have one, it was seemingly winning, and looked right, loved the roll cage, even the wheels suited it, so I saved and saved my paper round money etc, and bought it!! 

(Had the turbo Ultima wheels for carpet tyres, the body was Vac Formed in school, but as it was school plastic, wouldnt usually last a meeting 🫣) 

Tbh, in the UK at the time, 'foreign'  brands like Associated weren't really available (not sure if the exchange rate, import duty etc, made them too expensive/hassle to get across the pond) , so you had the choice of Tamiya, Mardave, Schumacher , Marui , PB or Kyosho.

The majority of cars on the tracks then, where Tamiya or Mardave, with the serious racer driving a Schumacher. The Ultima was above the Tamiya and Mardave, but not in the same class as the Schumachers imo, but with those guys spending more on batteries and motors, than I had in my whole set up, that probably helped.

The Ultima was not overly expensive, and came with a motor and MSC, so at least you could get racing, and save your pocket /paper round money for a 112b esc, le man's motor etc (ran the K stock from the Frog,  with absolutely zero gearbox or diff issues) 

 

Pic of our choice, from an Otley Modelsport advert of march '88 -

 

 (Price of the bearings!?! , that would put just the bearings for the Ultima, close to £70 in today's money..😳, also note our choice of Radio, either Stick radio, or urm, a Stick radio!! I went with, Acoms) 

 

Bit random,  but , early 90's, top of the Eiffel Tower 😁

 

[Beetlemankurt]

@Wooders28 investing observations in terms of what brands were available/popular BITD in your neck of the woods. Not too dissimilar to NZ really. Always love hearing about others experience.

You might be right with the batteries etc in the Schumachers helping to get an advantage. Funny how a racers proximity to the kit manufacturer potentially plays a part in what's more popular/faster in different countries due to savings on the initial kit price. 

Interestingly,  i don't recall the Schumachers being much different in speed to the (later versions) of the Ultima on the track in NZ back then, if anything (and given Japan is way closer to NZ than the UK or the US) I'd say the later verisons of the Ultimas were more popular and successful down here, or at least where I raced they were. 

It's actually been pretty intesting seeing how my ol girl from 89 stacks up against the re re Cougar on the track since I started racing again this year. Great fun! 

What I've been ultra impressed with with Ultima Pro is the fact that aside from the usual 'wear and tear' parts like tyres, bodies and wings, the only parts I've gone through in all these years are a couple of plastic tie rod ends (and some wing buttons etc which i wisely stored somewhere that i would surely remember where they were when i needed them again in the future.....mmmm.......AKA i lost them...grrrr)

Overall pretty good durability for a near 36 year old racer i reckon....(the car I mean, not me!).

Love the photos BTW Wooders and the T-Shirts! Do you still have them? Awesome artwork on them. 

Cheers

Kurt

Here's my baby....

 

 

 

 

[Wooders28]

On 12/2/2024 at 6:57 AM, Beetlemankurt said:

i don't recall the Schumachers being much different in speed to the (later versions) of the Ultima on the track in NZ back then

As it was generally sponsored guys, with the top elecs, who could obviously drive well. So no matter what race chassis they had, they'd probably win/be quick.

On 12/2/2024 at 6:57 AM, Beetlemankurt said:

Love the photos BTW Wooders and the T-Shirts! Do you still have them? Awesome artwork on them. 

Cheers !

I used to love the T Shirt, but not sure what happened to it tbh, I have a feeling I wore it to shreads, and it didn't return from the washing basket one day.. 😔

[Pablo68]

18 hours ago, Wooders28 said:

As it was generally sponsored guys, with the top elecs, who could obviously drive well. So no matter what race chassis they had, they'd probably win/be quick.

Cheers !

I used to love the T Shirt, but not sure what happened to it tbh, I have a feeling I wore it to shreads, and it didn't return from the washing basket one day.. 😔

Off topic, but there are a few shirts that I had as a kid/teenager that I wish I still had. One being a Star Wars 77 t-shirt that would not fit me now anyway, and if somehow I did get it on it would be like a small crop top.

[Big Jon]

At least in the States, the RC10 plain worked out of the box, and didn’t need much more than careful assembly and tires to be a competitive and durable race car, while the Ultima had some some compromises that had to be addressed to hold up to our fairly rough tracks. It didn’t have the easy diff adjustability or as many gear ratio choices, the shocks were archaic compared to Associated, the body, cage and wing weren’t race car parts, and so on. It didn’t help that the car that won the Worlds looked nothing like the car on the box. Had Kyosho released a race car Ultima that had the good bits out of the box at the same time as the standard Ultima, it might have been a different story.

The Optima Mid was very popular in my area; not many Ultimas at all. Of course RC10s were ubiquitous. I had one friend with an Ultima that seemed to break constantly, even though he was a good driver. As he raced more, he switched to an RC10 like everyone else. The RC10 really was the standard at the time.

 

In ‘87, Joel Johnson could have probably won the Worlds with a Bolink Digger. He really was that good.

[RichieRich]

I raced a Turbo Ultima occasionally back in the late 80s. The biggest problem was parts support. If something broke, it had to be ordered as none of the race tracks had any parts. I broke steering arms and the front shock tower. I remember ordering so many of the steering arms that I had multiple spare packs. Some were labeled "UM-11 Uplight Set". (No, that's not a misspelling.) I also wore out the top gear inside the transmission which was replaced with the super rare hardened pinion. Eventually, I gave up and bought an RC10 Team Car. Finding parts was never an issue again.

[Beetlemankurt]

Still kinda on topic......just got back yesterday from the 3rd annual GKR Classic 2025 at GKR Raceway just North of Auckland in NZ.

First time attending this event and what an absolute blast! Took my OG 89 Ultima Pro, JJ Ultima and Optima Mid. 

GKR is a purpose built old school dirt track specifically made for vintage buggies. 160 plus classic RC and all running silver can Kyosho G27 motors. NZs largest vintage RC event to date and looks like it's going to keep growing. Tamiya, Schumacher, Predator, Associated, Traxxas and Kyosho all there! 

Very very close racing and all my cars did me proud (as did my Son who was racing on dirt for the first time ever and only his fourth ever race meeting). He beat me and I couldn't be happier :).

The 89 Pro only suffered a broken wing wire during the weekend after a tangle with another car and did a full days practice, then 3 qualifying rounds followed by three finals. Very cool and good speed throughout.  

Gotta love close vintage racing and seeing all these classic cars doing what they were designed to do! What an awesome and varied hobby we have.

Cheers 

Kurt

 

 

[Saito2]

Wow, I didn't know the Ultima was so breakage/wear prone. I was under the assumption Kyosho's black glass reinforced plastic was pretty tough. Still, but that's what this thread is about, learning about the Ultima's place back then.

The spare parts situation I guessed might be an issue. We had one RC-heavy hobby shop with a full line of Kyosho spares but the rest (hard to believe I had about a half dozen to choose from back then!) of the shops didn't really have any aside from a random Kyosho kit or two.

[RCvet]

I worked at a Hobby Shop in late 80's and we were very close to Great Planes Distributor who was a Kyosho distributor, maybe the main one if I recall.  We had a relatively high % of Kyosho sales and never had an issue getting parts.  Maybe due to proximity but don't know.  I sold more Ultimas than RC10's actually.   Good friend raced an Ultima Pro in 89-90 and did well with it.  Mind you, I do not think this particular track drew the best of the best in region as a poorly maintained outdoor track. But point being, for regular club action, it did just fine.   In hindsight it is one of the best looking buggies of era.  

Also, I know a lot of people will says Joel Johnson car was different etc.  It was just a chassis for most part.  Even if you want to say it was all Joel Johnson that did it, I would remind that the 2nd and 3rd place cars were stock Ultima chassis, and wasn't it like only 2 RC10's in Top 10, with one Schumacher and rest Ultimas.  Point being at least at 1987 race it was the better car.

[Rinskie]

I had a Turbo Ultima shortly after they came out and raced it a little bit but in the Dallas Fort Worth area at the time most tracks I knew about were dirt ovals so my Ultima was an Oval-tima. Funny, as much as I loved that car I don't remember a whole lot about it. I ran it for a year and then I can't hardly say what happen to it. More than likely I traded it for a pan car or something else equally as useless for where I ran my cars at the time. I recall the RC10's and the Ultima's were more or less "also rans" compared to the Custom Works cars at the time. 

[legacygt777]

I have raced the Ultima since the late 80s. I recently won 3rd place on the intermediate level at my local carpet track using my 13 year Ultima RB5 Type R. 

Back in 87, I raced the Kyosho Icarus on a dirt course and kept losing because it kept breaking down. But I got an Ultima and won some races against several RC10's.

The problem with the Ultima in terms of racing was parts. It was hard to get parts back then. It's still not the easiest today.

Second, to win races you have to understand setup for the course you're racing against. When everyone was using the the RC10, you just made adjustments and asked around. With the Ultima, you had to make your own judgements. Setup is the difference between people that can win and people that just race.

Team Associated has a lot of support back then. It still has a lot of support today. Associated is still king today at your local tracks, although there are different brands winning as well in the 1/10. 

But Kyosho is still killing it with the 1/8 buggies. And their last 1/10 Rb7 have won some championships back in 2013. They're supposed to release a new ultima for racing soon but that has not been confirmed.  

[Saito2]

On 1/20/2025 at 8:21 PM, Big Jon said:

I had one friend with an Ultima that seemed to break constantly,

 

On 1/20/2025 at 11:52 PM, RichieRich said:

I remember ordering so many of the steering arms that I had multiple spare packs. Some were labeled "UM-11 Uplight Set". (No, that's not a misspelling.) I also wore out the top gear inside the transmission which was replaced with the super rare hardened pinion.

Slightly off topic...are these issues with the re-release as well? Should I be be stocking up on spares? Is the top gear in the new transmission vulnerable too? I don't hear much about anybody running them and thus little feedback.

[RCvet]

23 minutes ago, Saito2 said:

 

Slightly off topic...are these issues with the re-release as well? Should I be be stocking up on spares? Is the top gear in the new transmission vulnerable too? I don't hear much about anybody running them and thus little feedback.

This is selective group think revisionist history.  No offense group ;-)  I beat the snot out of my rere Ultima and it just keeps going.  My RC10 has broken multiple times, so if I type RC10's are fragile would I be wrong?   RC10's back in the day and even the rere's take finesse to even get them built right.   Ultima fits together on 1st try.  The rere solved most "issues" that are being discussed today of the original cars with respect to gears, steering and several other refinements. 

Ultima is fine the way it is, anything can be broken with enough effort. 

[RichieRich]

Just FYI, I switched due to parts support. I broke my rc10 plenty. 🤣

I have no idea how durable the re-releases are as I don't own any. 

[ZED32]

Something breaks on my rc10 every single time I take it out. So like twice a week. It's probably a mix of both 40 year old plastic parts being brittle, running in 30-40 F degree weather, and running a track meant for bashers, not 10th scale buggies.

As you can tell, I am of the highest intelligence.

[Big Jon]

BITD, it seemed like everything broke all the time! I wouldn’t say the Ultima was any worse than an RC10, you could get Associated parts and upgrades at the LHS while you had to order Kyosho parts. It always seemed like the LHS had every Tamiya part except the ones I needed in stock. 

[RCvet]

9 minutes ago, Big Jon said:

BITD, it seemed like everything broke all the time! I wouldn’t say the Ultima was any worse than an RC10, you could get Associated parts and upgrades at the LHS while you had to order Kyosho parts. It always seemed like the LHS had every Tamiya part except the ones I needed in stock. 

That's why we ended up and still do too a large degree carry a warehouse of parts to the track.  They were always out of that one thing you needed.