Motors and quality of life, expenses et cetera

[Rijkvv]

I was looking for motors for some of my (future) bashers. I would like to be able to maintain them, so that would lead me to rebuildable brushed motors. Thought about getting Tamiya Superstocks (and a Kyosho Le Mans (490?) for my future Kyosho re-re builds before I found out they're not available anymore), maybe LRP as well. But apparently it's more than just replacing the brushes. That would be not that big of a deal for me if I can get away without buying a comm lathe. I probably would like the maintenance part. But they're hard to get and expensive, and I don't even know yet if I can justify that purchase if I don't drive that much.

For the same amount I can get two Hobbywing Max10 combo's. For some modern chassis it somehow feels wrong to not go brushless. I have a Carson Dragster set, but was annoyed by the noise it makes. Is this common for brushless sets, or is the  Hobbywing combo more silent? Is that one a bit smooth in operation, or just brute strength? Getting into this would mean I would switch to Lipo, which I'm not yet convinced of in the other cases.

Last option would be sealed brushed cans. I have a torque tuned on my M08 and that feels plenty, and thought of a Kyosho G14L for the future Kyosho re-re's. Both are not expensive if they need to be replaced, so maybe this is realistically the best option. Do they last long? Is there another good option for sealed cans? As for maintenance I believe you can try to run them in demineralized water to clean them?

[sosidge]

Despite what a lot of people on Tamiyaclub will say, rebuildable brushed motors are a waste of effort, and have been for over a decade. If you go into the "real" world of RC instead of this very narrow corner, you will find that everyone is running brushless, or a simple sealed can brushed motor.

To do rebuildable brushed motor maintenance properly requires a supply of new brushes and a comm lathe - neither of which are freely available. There is a reason for that. There is no demand. Rebuildable motors have just become a more expensive, disposable motor.

So if you want speed - run brushless. If you want low cost - stick to sealed can brushed. You should also be switching to LiPo. The "real" world switched to Lipo a long time ago, NiMH is simply an inferior technology, only suitable for slow brushed motors, and not even very good at that any more since NiMH cells are generally lower quality than they were in the past.

Don't run your brushed motors in water, it doesn't clean them, it will just wear them out faster. And don't expect durability from sealed brushed motors under 20T (3-pole), they will cook themselves pretty quickly.

[Mad Ax]

There is a general consensus that rebuildable brushed motors are nowhere near as soon as they were, and this is probably broadly true, but it depends what you want them for.

I've had good results with the Sport Tuned rebuildable range from ETronix.  I've got a few of them in various states of tune in my vintage racers.  I haven't noticed them being excessively slow and they have been reliable enough in the few races I've entered them in.  At least, they haven't burned out or stopped on me.  They have nowhere near the power of a Tamiya Super Stock and I wouldn't use one in a spec class, but if you want the rebuildable experience without a massive outlay then they're fine.

It's also worth pointing out that I managed fine without a comm lathe for many, many years.  Unless you are racing hard or abusing your car or using high-power low-turn motors, you aren't going to be burning your comm up too bad.  I used to use some fine wet-or-dry paper to tidy up the comm when I did a brush change.  Yes, now I have a comm lathe, that is mostly to recondition all the old motors that I was been cleaning up with wet-or-dry paper for 15 years.  But it's a very old comm lathe and I think the bit may be damaged, as most of my comms don't look that good when I've finished.

New brushes aren't expensive and as long as you get the correct type of brush, they don't have to be manufacturer-specific, especially if you're not competing at a high level.

On the subject of brushless - it does make a huge different in terms of performance and battery consumption, but I have found it harder to buy good budget systems.  The Gool RC stuff got recommended a lot but the one I tried has the most awful throttle profile, making it near impossible to drive predictable.  An ETronix Photon system I bought a couple of years back was terrible too, for the same reason.  I just want to drive my cars, I don't want to fight the ESC.  For this reason, I no longer buy budget brushless - mostly it's Hobbywing or nothing these days.

Hobbywing is good but not as cheap as it was and you have to be careful of knock-offs, Turnigy Trackstar used to be my go-to but last time I checked there was no stock anywhere so maybe they have disappeared.  It's been a few years since I bought a Trackstar system so maybe they're all different now anyway.

[Twinfan]

I bought a comm lathe recently for around £50 and brushes are really available from Tamiya and LRP. Brushed motors from both of them are available in rebuildable form and seem to be the best you can buy right now.

For someone, if you're like me, who likes to tinker with stuff, brushed motors are still an option despite what sosidge says  Bashing around the park is just as "real" as whatever part of the hobby they take part in.

If you're into re-res then generally speaking nostalgia is a huge part of the experience, and brushed motors powered by NiMH batteries is personally where I find my happy place 

[Wooders28]

Brushless ,and oil the bearings every now and then.

[El Gecko]

3 hours ago, Twinfan said:

brushed motors powered by NiMH batteries is personally where I find my happy place 

Amen, brother

As mentioned above, LRP makes good solid rebuildable brushed motors, and I would also mention Team Brood and the Reedy Radon 3-slot series. They're all slightly better than the Super Stock on quality. I have a few of the cheapo no-name black can rebuildables, and they're honestly not terrible. The lower turn counts aren't as torquey as the better motors, but they still rev out decently with a smaller pinion.

At least the black cans mostly come with ball bearings, vs. sealed cans which I've never seen with bearings. Even the Super Stock still comes with bushings. Unfortunately the bushings are usually the first thing to go bad, long before the brushes and comm. I wouldn't go out of my way to buy a sealed can motor unless it was for a specific race/event or something. For my bashers and regular runners, a rebuildable motor with ball bearings is pretty much a requirement. Brushless/lipo just seems unnecessary, especially in a vintage chassis.

[Rijkvv]

4 hours ago, Twinfan said:

I bought a comm lathe recently for around £50 and brushes are really available from Tamiya and LRP. Brushed motors from both of them are available in rebuildable form and seem to be the best you can buy right now.

For someone, if you're like me, who likes to tinker with stuff, brushed motors are still an option despite what sosidge says  Bashing around the park is just as "real" as whatever part of the hobby they take part in.

If you're into re-res then generally speaking nostalgia is a huge part of the experience, and brushed motors powered by NiMH batteries is personally where I find my happy place 

I assume you bought that lathe used?

As for LiPo I get the advantages. In fact I already filled a cart at a webshop to order a batsafe, but I think it would be too inconvenient for me. Having to charge whenever you want to use them, having to charge or discharge again if you stop, which may need on a sudden for whatever reason. I also wouldn't feel very comfortable to charge them in our house, rather do it in the shed, but don't want to do so unattended. And that all makes it less convenient when I recently became a father and time to spare has become more rare than a comm lathe now.  

Thanks for the replies. With the brushless Le Mans Gold seemingly made out of actual gold, the 490 discontinued and any other brand seen somehow as wrong on a Kyosho I'll likely go for the G14L for those cars (which to me seem like sealed cans). As for the rest... choises, choises, choises. 

[Twinfan]

Yep, the lathe was used. I should have said that, sorry, but it's in excellent condition.

[Alex97]

If it's just for general bashing then you can't beat the Surpass 540 motors from AliExpress, they are less than £20 delivered. They work well and are extremely good value for money. Their ESCs on the otherhand are terrible and should be avoided. 

Brushed motors have their place however for general bashing really aren't worth it when you consider the CoreRC motors are £10 each. 

[ThunderDragonCy]

On 2/10/2025 at 10:23 AM, Mad Ax said:

 but I have found it harder to buy good budget systems. 

I just want to drive my cars, I don't want to fight the ESC

These two things. When I got back into rc in 2017 all I wanted to do was get brushless, and I did. But that was when you could pick up decent Speed Passion motors for 30 quid and on nimh they would run ok on the tamiya esc in the box if it was a light 2wd buggy. Fast forward to fitting 13.5 or 10.5 motors to things like my Thunder Dragon and the tamiya ESCs melt. But after buying cheapo knock off ESCs that were terrible or also melted, or "cheap" sensorless systems that have no subtlety or throttle control (IMO) I ended up buying Hobbywing escs. They are great, but even a 10BL60 and a surpass Rocket these days would run you over 70 quid. 

Then I started on road racing in Iconic and I had to use the Iconic brushed motor and a 1060 esc. By now I am on lipo that are minimum 5000mah and the performance is delightful (motor is about 17t so it's plenty fast) and although brushless is more efficient, my lipos will run a brushed motor touring car for over an hour at the track, and one of my brushed motor buggies for 45 mins at the astro track. That's longer than my brain can concentrate on driving! And with a pukka 1060 esc and shopping around for a decent motor your electronics cost under 40 quid. I think the maintenance is a bit over egged too. I have some rebuild able motors, and the Reedy vintage one has a reputation for eating brushes. It came to me used and I probably need to change them now, but that is after probably 20 hours of running. Or over 2 years in ownership terms. YMMV but I can't make the value proposition for brushless anymore now I have good lipo batteries.

[Juggular]

On 2/10/2025 at 2:54 AM, Rijkvv said:

I have a Carson Dragster set, but was annoyed by the noise it makes.

If it doesn't have a separate sensor wire, it could be "cogging."   Sensorless ESCs just give order to fire up without any feedback. That can result in hesitation at lower speed (i.e. when the speed changes).  If you have a Tamiya TBLE-02S ESC, you might try a 13.5t sensored motor.  If you are in a hot area, maybe 15.5t to prevent thermal shutdown. But the Netherlands isn't known for oppressive summer heat.  

Some 15 years ago, I got a used lathe for about $89 or 98 USD.  But as @Mad Ax mentioned, sandpaper would do a reasonable job of cleaning.  You would not need a lathe unless you are racing and try to tease out as much RPM as possible.  

I like rebuildable motors because I like taking things apart and putting them back together.  Some people like to build, some people like to display, some people like to stash away NIB kits and some like to bash. You are the captain of your ship. I've got nothing to say on what should float your boat.  

But I have to agree that brushless is just better in every aspect.  Brushes touch the commutator.  Unintentionally, that works like a brake reducing the speed.  Several packs won't make a dent, though.  Well, some do make dents, because some brushes have teeth.  They make grooves on the comm.  (I always thought this was a way to increase the contact area as they dig groves into the comm. More area = more electricity. Or to reduce contact, less area to touch = less drag. Or to wear faster initially so if the commutator wasn't perfectly round, they'd still make contact.  Your guess is as good as mine. Below shows 2 common orientation of brushes.)  What I'm saying is that to wear them down, it takes like a hundred hours of runtime or more.  

The silver can uses yet another kind of brushes (obviously non-rebuildable).  Even these short 6mm brushes last longer than the bushings on the motor. (which is why lubricating them is important) 

The "peak" performance of a silver can lasts about 4 hours of race.  The performance goes down after that. But my guess is only by several % to a dozen percent. 

Racers used to lathe the comm, move the magnets, re-tension the brushes to maintain the peak performance. The whole lathe thing is to allow the brushes glide over the comm smoothly.  Most bashers would not feel the difference unless they time the laps all day long.  But in 2025, is it worth lathing and re-tensioning the brushes? (I enjoy tinkering, but a brusheless motor doesn't require any of this.) 

I forget who wrote the above note.  Some well-known Japanese racer, maybe?  Note how he wrote in a box: "Electric Contact Repair--> without this, Max RPM 19000."  I think he means lathing?  

All the effort above was necessary for racers when brushless was not widely available (or allowed).    

Even as brushless is available now, sealed Sport Tuned is my personal go-to upgrade.  It's cheap, happy and robust.  I give it a drop of oil on either bushings, every 5-10 hours.  With adequate lubrication, even sealed canned motors should last several years if not a decade. (Unless you run 300 hours per season or run at 11.1 volt).   I don't recommend GoolRC 23t.  The RPM is okay, but I suspect the torque is not as good.  23000 RPM Sport Tuned kicked a lot harder than GoolRC when I connected the battery.  

Brushless motors simply have no drag. No contact. No tension to adjust. The rotor is floating by two bearings.  

Many kits still come with TBLE-02S.  Tamiya's own brushless motors are a bit on the weaker side, so it will take down to 10.5 turn.  If you go with another brand, it should be compatible only down to a 13.5T sensored motor.  With a steel pinion, it should run indefinitely until bearings are shot. (If you run on a hot day, you might want to consider a fan for the ESC.) 

A 13.5t would put you slightly above the Sport Tuned.  On a light chassis, tooth up on the pinion, and you could go noticeably faster than Sport Tuned.  You could get one for $38-40 USD.  

If your kit comes with a Hobbywing 1060, then a $15 Sport Tuned would be fine for years.  Everybody is different.  1060 can run a Super Stock.  But my M06 fishtails on acceleration with the silver can.  With sticky tires, I might go as much as Torque tuned like you did.  But Sport tuned would be a tad too fast for me.  I doubt that I'll ever get a Super Stock for my M06.  (RPM-wise: the Silver can is slowest, then Torque Tuned, Sport Tuned, and Super Stock.)  When it comes to speed, everybody is different.  I've seen some video of people running DT04 with a 3600KV at 3S.  It made the poor DT04 behave like it has taken crazy drugs to be a Traxxas.  My taste is a bit calmer.  

For heavier buggies like BBX where more torque is useful, I'd just use 13.5t since I have several TBLE-02S.  I might be tempted to run a Super Stock, only if it's below $28 (I'd install $2 worth of bearings-which adds about 500 RPM ---I can't remember if I tested that at 3.7v or at 7.4v). 

I'm cheap. My bashers don't need anything fancy. For the most part, I'm happy to install a $15 Sport Tuned.  23000 RPM at 7.8v means 2948 KV, if Sport Tuned was a brushless. Brushed motors lose quite a bit of RPM under load than brushless. But Sport Tuned is not bad.  My lighter buggies like DT-02 and DT-03 are quite happy with Sport Tuned.  I expect DT-04 would be the same.  

Below is somebody installing a 13.5t with TBLE-02s.  (Konghead is also heavy, so a brushless and a steel pinion would be useful. This Konghead's aluminum pinion isn't in the best condition.) 

 

[Andreas W]

Well said @Juggular. For no nonsense, simple life the ST or TT with a 1060 is my go to choice. That said I have also been happy with the cheap Yeah Racing Hackmoto 23t with the timing set almost at maximum. Then they feel almost at SS level and with the hard brushes they last long. The motors are so cheap (3 for one SS here), so I get 2 at the time, so I have less downtime.

 

You get a long way with sandpaper wrapped around a file,  but when the comm is unround that's not good enough. You'll see it when there is more sparks than usual in the motor and the brushes don't last long. I have now got a lathe, so I am looking forward to get my motors OK again. Especially my SS TZ needs the comm cut now. It's had a hard life in the Thunder Dragon in unclean environment. 

 

All this said I prefer sensored brushless in my day to day runners like rally cars and M-chassis. Allthough brushed worked fine at a low cost at some point it's nice to not have to worry about the heat.