The need for Speed: brushed or brushless, sensored or sensorless

[Rookie Rabbit]

Tamiyaclub community,

 

I really like my Sand Viper … but … I feel the need!
This being said, I do not intend to leave the "cheap and cheerful" route or switch to LiPo batteries. Currently, my car is running its stock 540 motor, a 17 tooth steel Carson pinion, a TBLE-02S and a 2500 mAh 7.2V NimH battery. Speed is ok, run time is around 19 minutes and the motor runs hot.

So far, I thought of the following options:
1. Tamiya's Torque Tuned or Sports Tuned motor, perhaps coupled to a 19 tooth steel pinion.
2. Carson's Launcher 2.0 Race 17T motor or a similar open endbell, brushed performance motor.
3. A sensored brushless motor to go with my TBLE-02S. The best offer I found was Hobbywing's QuicRun 3650SD 10,5T or 13,5T G2 motor.
4. A sensorless motor + ESC combination.

And formed the following opinion:
1. As the Sport Tuned motor most likely requires a heat sink for 25€, it does not make much financial sense compared to the other options.
2. Very tempting offer for 20€, with plenty of spare money to be spend on batteries. Despite the TBLE-02S' 25 turn limit, I can't see how this motor (P=150W) could exceed its limit of 60 A continuous.
3. The "quality option"? The best offer I found was Hobbywing's Quicrun 3650SD G2 in either 10.5T or 13.5T variant for around 55€. I expect a more efficient motor, with less cooling issues and a longer run time compared to a brushed motor.
4. I am unsure of their quality, and wary of what could be a delay in acceleration. Furthermore, I need an adapter to use my current Tamiya connector battery. 

However, there are still some questions left:
2. Have I misunderstood something about the current draw of motors? Does the Tamiya connector stand up to that kind of performance? Can I expect better cooling with an open endbell motor? Does it stand up as well to wet conditions as my standard motor?
3. How do I connect the Hobbywing motor to the TBLE-02S? Are there other budget options? Does it make sense to buy a 10.5T motor and use the dual rate to turn it down if necessary, rather than to buy the 13.5T (2870 kV) motor? What happens in wet conditions? Is it quieter than a brushed motor?
4. What are the "safe" options in the no-name field of the market? And is there a noticeable delay in throttle response?

In summary, I am a bit lost - and rather thankful for your input.

 

Best,
Rookie Rabbit

[alvinlwh]

While there are other connectors that are better out there, Tamiya plug is fine for your proposed use. Since you have no interest in switching to lipo, they are fine with NiMHs. 

For the DT chassis, I use a 550 15T. It has a fan build in. 

Most of the sensored motors include a sensor cable. Connect it to the white socket on the ESC. 

[Juggular]

1) Sport Tuned could be a nice upgrade.  

It's TBLE-02S compatible in stock gearing.  I assume your Sand Viper has ball bearings?  Few dollars worth of bearings alone can give you around 20% improvement. (My guesstimation is 10% improvement in run time, 20% faster acceleration and 20% faster top speed. And they reduce the resistance, so the motor could run cooler.)  Sport Tuned will give you 20% on top of that.  You already have a steel pinion.  (I would not keep the pinion size the same -- stronger brushed motors do have more torque, but at a higher RPM. Burdening it with a larger pinion will slow the spooling. That ends up sacrificing its potential. Back in the days, people used to shrink the pinion as they upgrade the motor, so they can spool faster.) 

For me, Sport Tuned is where "cheap and cheerful" happens, so I stay there.  I have some faster motors (brushed and brushless). But I mostly upgrade with a Sport Tuned.  Torque tuned is weaker, so I wouldn't bother with it.  

2) If the Sport Tuned upgrade isn't enough, then you can upgrade your battery and connector before going brushless.  Even with a Sport Tuned, you'll notice the difference if you go from 7.2v to 7.4v.  It's not just the voltage, it's the amps.  

People compare voltage as height of a waterfall.  7.4v is taller than 7.2v.  Amp is the volume of water. 5A has 5 times more water than 1A.  But Tamiya connector wasn't designed for 5A.  

Below looks like a charging accident, but Tamiya connectors were designed to carry 1A safely.  It was chosen 50 years ago for NiCd.  NiMH wasn't even invented, let alone LiFe or LiPO.  

Most brushless motors of about 3000kv or more could pull about 4-6A instantly.  After they get going, they could pull 1A steadily.  Considering the current pull, it would be a good idea to upgrade the connectors and batteries.  

This does not mean a brushless system cannot use NiMH.  You can use it, because NiMH itself can only do 2-3A.  Tamiya connector may not burn up, because the battery cannot give that much anyway.  (However, I've had white Tamiya plugs get brown spots with heat.)  

A terrible combination is a high drain motor with a LiPo battery, but having a Tamiya plug.  The motor wants 6A and the battery can give 6A. But Tamiya connector can withstand only 3A max. Then it will have to burn up.  (Almost no LiPO batteries come with a Tamiya plug for a reason.)

So, after getting a Sport Tuned, if you want to upgrade, my recommendation is upgrading the battery and the connector.  That alone can give you a bit of boost, like 5%.  

3) If you want more after that, you can go brushless. (Before getting into brushless: 550 Brushed motor is a good option. It's simply larger than a 540 motor with larger magnets and beefier wires. But TBLE02S cannot handle it. So you may need a Hobbywing Quicrun 1060 or some other ESC that could handle the current.)  For brushless, if you are the type who just guns it, then sensorless may work. At lower speed, sensorless can have a hesitation called 'cogging.'  If you want fine control, especially when you are at lower speed, a sensored motor would be a better option.  

If you want to use TBLE-02S for a brushless, you have to get a sensored motor.  It won't work with a sensorless motor.  If you go with a brushless, you can go with a slightly larger pinion.  Brushless has more torque, so a tooth larger pinion won't slow down.  TBLE-02S is rated for 10.5t, but only for NiMH (7.2v) and LiFe (6.6v).  Tamiya does not recommend LiPO (7.4v).  They don't want Japanese children setting their houses on fire with LiPO batteries. They never sold LiPO batteries either, only safer LiFe. That does not mean you cannot use LiPo.  I'd simply use something that draws a bit less juice, like 13.5T.  Less juice, less heat.  If you don't burden it too much, it should be fine. If you want to run it on a hot desert, then choose a better ESC or go down to 17.5T.  (Most newer ESCs have thermal shutdown function. If it gets too hot, it just shuts down instead of burning up.)

Whatever you choose, it's only going to improve. Best of fun to you. (is that a thing people say? I think it should be a thing.)

 

[Twinfan]

I would suggest a 1060 ESC, a Sport Tuned motor and an 8.4v hump battery. Works great in my DT-03 

[Wooders28]

If you've the need for speed , brushless is the only option, plus lipo.

If you're sticking with the old batteries, you can goto a 7s (need to check they fit a dt02 right enough..) ,and have a similar run voltage to a 2s lipo, just without the oomph. Just swapping to a 2s lipo, would give you a noticeable jump in performance. 

Maybe cheaper getting a sensorless brushless combo (motor & esc) rather than spending top money on a tamiya 10.5t, just because you've got the esc. Buying a new combo, will probably have you a programme option too, so you can disable any lipo voltage cut off (nimh run voltage is similar to a flat lipo, especially with a hotter motor, and voltage sag) .

As with everything, good quality motors/esc aren't cheap, but the best balance imo, would be the 10bl120 G2 esc, and try and find a named brand (Reedy, hobbywing etc) 2nd hand motor , somewhere around 8.5t would give nice power balance.

Tamiya ( molex) connectors where rubbish even back in the 80's, and you needed to swap them out if racing, or they melted with a modified motor pulling power through them. Some will fight you to the death, if you suggest anything other than the XT60 connector, but I run deans, as they're the most common plug in the UK, so more battery options without needing to faff soldering.

[Eric Bloodsmith]

5 hours ago, Wooders28 said:

As with everything, good quality motors/esc aren't cheap, but the best balance imo, would be the 10bl120 G2 esc, and try and find a named brand (Reedy, hobbywing etc) 2nd hand motor , somewhere around 8.5t would give nice power balance.

I run a hobbywing 10bl120 g2 and their 3665 size 8.5T motor in my DT-03. I had to turn the punch setting down to minimum to ensure the CVDs weren't over torqued, but otherwise this combo works splendidly in this gearbox. The ball diff I upgraded to handles the power REALLY well. I run the 17T pinion and all the jumps at my local 1/8 track are easy to clear.

I highly recommend the 10bl120 g2. Just make sure you get the sensored one, and maybe get a waterproof combo, if you lke running in the rain.

[Wooders28]

2 hours ago, Eric Bloodsmith said:

turn the punch setting down to minimum to ensure the CVDs weren't over torqued

If you fit TT01 outdrives, and DF03 cvd driveshafts, (I'm running yeah racing) you get rid of that problem (tested with a Castle 5700kv on 5s...) 

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2 hours ago, Eric Bloodsmith said:

Just make sure you get the sensored one, and maybe get a waterproof combo, if you lke running in the rain

The WP and the stock G2 are different escs. The WP is sensorless and will run 4s, the 10bl120 g2 is sensorless/sensored and a 3s limit. 

[donfilippo]

I love brushless motors, however my DT-02 runs a Sport Tuned. This works great and has taken a lot of use and abuse. I have switched between 17t and 19t pinions and prefer the 17t. My car is fitted with a heat sink and an alloy plate, which might help with keeping temperature at bay. 

[Rookie Rabbit]

Thank you all very much for your input, @alvinlwh, @Juggular, @Twinfan, @Wooders28, @Eric Bloodsmith, @donfilippo!

Right now I am leaning towards a better brushed motor. They seem to be the simplest way to improve performance, perhaps coupled to a 8,4 V NiMh battery. Am I correct in assuming a higher performance brushed motor is louder?

Are brushless motors much more efficient, i. e. do I gain run time and eliminate some of the cooling issues?

Finally, do sensored brushless motors work in "buggy conditions", i. e. dust, mud or snow?

 

Best,

Rookie Rabbit

[Eric Bloodsmith]

44 minutes ago, Wooders28 said:

If you fit TT01 outdrives, and DF03 cvd driveshafts, (I'm running yeah racing) you get rid of that problem (tested with a Castle 5700kv on 5s...) 

I run the steel outdrives with df03 cvds, but they still make a horrid sound when run at high torque. The 8th scalers made the same sound, so it might not be bad, but I don't need that torque in a dt-03.

I remember when I first heard it, it sounded like a chain rattling around.

[Wooders28]

1 hour ago, Rookie Rabbit said:

Are brushless motors much more efficient, i. e. do I gain run time and eliminate some of the cooling issues?

Yes , yes (with a but..*) and probably...

* - more efficient per rpm, but like for like, they have more torque, so generally have more rpm..

 

1 hour ago, Rookie Rabbit said:

Finally, do sensored brushless motors work in "buggy conditions", i. e. dust, mud or snow?

Never had any brushless motor issues, sensored or sensorless (well, a bit of cogging with the latter, which is common)

. 10bl120 , Reedy M3 - 6.5t

 

 

[Twinfan]

In my (albeit limited) experience I've not found brushless motors to have massive improvements in run times when compared to similar powered brushed motors in the same car.  You can get more power out of them, sure, and using a LiPo will help given the weight difference, but if you only change for a similar powered motor then the run times are pretty much the same IMHO.

Brushless will hep with cooling issues for sure if you're having problems.

[Juggular]

On 2/23/2025 at 2:39 PM, Rookie Rabbit said:

Right now I am leaning towards a better brushed motor. They seem to be the simplest way to improve performance, perhaps coupled to a 8,4 V NiMh battery. Am I correct in assuming a higher performance brushed motor is louder?

Are brushless motors much more efficient, i. e. do I gain run time and eliminate some of the cooling issues?

Finally, do sensored brushless motors work in "buggy conditions", i. e. dust, mud or snow?

I would try with 7.2v first.  Sport Tuned is right at the limit of TBLE02S. 

If you go 8.4v, it might run fine in the winter. But come summer, you might experience thermal shutdowns. Waiting for it to cool down in the summer heat is annoying.  But you can slap a fan on the  ESC.  I don't like extra noises, but some people cool ESCs that way.   

The motor itself isn't louder, its pitch gets higher. You may think the gearbox got louder, though. Good grease can dampen the noise a bit.  

DT-02's semi closed design isn't really good for heat dissipation.  Are you using larger tires?  Larger, heavier tires can make things much worse.  

Brushless definitely runs cooler.  It has no contact points (brushes).  Brushed motors have brushes (no surprise there) that touches the commutator.  Sparks fly between them. Both commutator and brushes wear out from friction and heat. That's why some motors allow you to replace brushes.  Having no brushes, the brushless system does not make contact, so they run much cooler.  Brushless motors also have more torque. The motor does not have to work as much to run the same car, which makes it run cooler.  It wastes less energy, which results in a longer runtime. Brushless motors have efficiency of around 90%. Brushed motors (below) have efficiency of 80%. 

Runtime depends on the gearing and the weight of the battery too.  If you were using a heavy 8.4v battery with a stock motor that was struggling, you wouldn't get a lot of run time.  But if you use a brushless that has a lot more torque, and if you use a LiPo that weighs 40% less, you'd get a lot longer runtime.  But even on a brushless, if you use a much larger pinion + larger tires and use a big brick of a battery, you'd get less run time.  

As for dust, brushed motors just eats through it.  Commutator may get scratched up, brushes could develop streaks from dust and sparks.  But commutators and brushes are designed to wear out.  Brushless motors have even less parts.  The electronic parts (coils) are on the outside, attached to the wall of the can. They don't move.  So the only damage dust can do is on the bearings. 

People use brushed and brushless motors on buggies.  Obviously, dust isn't 'good.'  Motors on on-road cars would last longer.  But some dust is fine, snow and some water should be fine too.  Mud splashes won't get in that easily, especially since the motor is sort of hidden in DT02.  I wouldn't sink it in mud, though.  Mud getting into gearbox could ruin the teeth of the gears inside.  (I use grease on both edges of two halves on the gearbox when I build buggies. It would take 2-3 seconds for mud to seep in, instead of immediate leakage. It makes things easier if you want to wash the car too).  

If you play in the mud all the time, many sensorless motors are waterproof.  

 

[Rookie Rabbit]

Thank you all once again, @Eric Bloodsmith, @Wooders28, @Twinfan, @Juggular!

The ability of running sensored brushless motors in wet conditions has again skewed me towards them, as well as them running colder. I did indeed grease the gearbox seals when building the car, and so far, the gearbox is running perfectly. As for the tyres, I run stock tyres and continue to do so, as I like the "motorsport look".

As 10.5T and 13.5T Hobbywing motors are the same money, are the any adverse effects (other than it being slower, obviously) when limiting the motor with the transmitter's dual rate function?
Basically, I think of getting the lower turn motor and limit it to around 3000 kV for the TBLE-02S.

Best,

Rookie Rabbit

[Twinfan]

Just consider gearing, you'll need something lower for the 10.5T.

Oh, and sensored motors might be an issue in wet conditions due to the exposed sensor cable connections.

[Rookie Rabbit]

Thank you, @Twinfan!

Gearing is indeed a fair point, the Quicrun manual suggest a 8,0:1 gearing for the 10,5 turn motor, which is a bit low for many Tamiya models, including the DT-02. An 8,5 turn motor would be more suitable, but absolute overkill for my ESC.

So far, I have quite a decent understanding of the current requirements of either a brushed (Carson 17T) or a brushless (Quicrun 10.5T) motor. Both exceed 60 A at high loads, which is in contradiction to Tamiya rating the TBLE-02S for their 10.5T motor (albeit with additional cooling). Using dual rate, I suppose either could work.

As for the battery side of things, I am rather lost. The highest discharge rate I found mentioned on the internet was C=15, equally I = 37,5 A for my battery - just about the maximum current draw of my stock 540 motor. Therefore, my battery, and every other NiMH battery for that matter, should be unable to sufficiently power more powerful motors. However, they have done just that for decades! 

 

Best,

Rookie Rabbit

 

[alvinlwh]

24 minutes ago, Rookie Rabbit said:

Quicrun manual suggest a 8,0:1 gearing for the 10,5 turn motor, which is a bit low for many Tamiya models

Watch it when referring to recommended gear ratios in instructions. They tend to be ratios for TC sized wheels and when used in buggies, MT or MTC, will need adjusting.

[Twinfan]

The Hobbywing manual specifically recommends gearing for 2WD buggies, 4WD buggies, and touring cars.  8.0:1 is the recommendation for both 4WD and 2WD buggies with the 10.5T motor   

[El Gecko]

If you're sticking with the DT02's normal 17t pinion, I'd recommend going no lower than about a 19t brushed motor.

The only reason mine can run a 17t motor on 6-cell NiMH is because it's using a 16t pinion and has a lot of big capacitors to boost the BEC's capability.

I'd also suggest getting a bigger battery, 5000mAh if you can. Runtime really drops with lower-turn brushed motors.

[Wooders28]

4 hours ago, Rookie Rabbit said:

Tamiya rating the TBLE-02S for their 10.5T motor

If you go 10.5t, and the tamiya esc gets grumpy,  you could then go for the 10bl120 G2, add some boost & Turbo timing in the programme settings , and get some more oomph.

 

4 hours ago, Rookie Rabbit said:

Using dual rate

I tend to use EPA or throttle curve on the throttle, as dual rate alters the brakes too. I tend to just use the dual rate for the steering.

 

4 hours ago, Rookie Rabbit said:

Therefore, my battery, and every other NiMH battery for that matter, should be unable to sufficiently power more powerful motors. However, they have done just that for decades! 

That's why even just switching to lipo, you'll feel more 'punch' out of a motor, as it gets all the juice it wants. (When you 'punch' the throttle ,it wheelies and goes).

[chris.alex]

If I remember correctly with my DT02 the first step for more speed was a Sport Tuned in combination with the DT02 heat sink set (53831). 

[Rookie Rabbit]

Thank you all again, @alvinlwh, @Twinfan, @El Gecko, @Wooders28, @chris.alex!

Honest, if the Sport Tuned and a fitting heat sink weren't as nearly as expensive as a sensored brushless motor, they would be my choice. But I feel like I could get more value out of a more modern motor - and then obviously upgrade my batteries, and the ESC if needed. Honestly, I am fine with it not doing any wheelies, I prefer higher top speed over crazy acceleration.

Best,

Rookie Rabbit

 

[Rookie Rabbit]

Tamiyaclub community,

 

in the meantime I bought, installed and ran Carson's Launcher 2.0 Race 17T motor: With a power of 150 W and 27500 RPM at no load, it should be an equal to Tamiya's fastest brushed motors. At 9,28:1, I estimate the DT-02's gearing to be sufficiently correct as well. For 20€, the increase in speed is sensational, and it even runs cooler than the stock silver can. Obviously, run times are halfed compared to the stock silver can motor, but my 2500 mAh 7,2V Carson NiMH battery with a Tamiya connector works just fine without overheating. All in all, this motor gave the DT-02 chassis the power it deserves, and even "solved" the understeer.

However, under the Sand Viper's closed polycarbonate body, my TBLE-02S overheats after around five to eight minutes. This finally motivated me to "ghettomod" (I may post a picture over there) the Fighter Buggy RX Memorial's shell on the DT-02 chassis, and mount the ESC on the battery holder for maximum airflow. While this leads to sufficient cooling, I have to shop around for a more capable ESC. As I like to stay "on brand", I think of the following options:

- Carson Dragster 70A Brushed (15€): 2S LiPo or 6 cell NiMH 540,550 Motor ≥18T or less than 30000 RPM at 7,2V

- THW-1060 (20€): I found no official specifications! Many dealers list 2S Lipo or 6 cell NiMH: 540, 550 sized motor: >=12T or < 30000 RPM @7.2V

Just going by the specifications, both should work, although they share, or only slightly exceed, the TBLE-02S' maximum continuous (how continuous?) rating of 60 A. To summarize, I would love to hear about your experience with (these) electronic speed controllers and motors similar to mine before buying a new ESC.

 

Thank you!

 

Best,

Rookie Rabbit

[Rookie Rabbit]

Tamiyaclub community,

after a couple of months I like to report back on my experience: I chose a THW-1060 which was on sale for 12€ and got to 4800 mAh Carson NimH batteries as well.  The ESC works fine, gets hot but does not shut down. The batteries, however, get too hot to hold in one's hand for a prolonged time, but work fine as well. 

As for the motor... A stock silver can runs too hot to touch in my DT-02. The Carson 17 T motor now runs even hotter! It now (after an estimed 20-30 runs) has the same performance as the stock silver can. Rebuilding the motor (checking the brushes which still looked fine, cleaning the entire motor and oiling the bearings has not improved its performance. I later even went as far as grinding the visibly worn commutator with a fine grindstone and the use of an electric screwdriver to no performance benefit. Resistance when rolling the car by hand does not feel different, so I assume the magnets have not reached their Curie temperature. I assume new brushes, or even a new commutator could solve the issue, but (commutator) costs and minute component life time makes me turn towards brushless options again.

In fact, Carson has now released a "new" 3200 kV unsensored brushless ESC + (finned) motor combination with a peak power of 390 W for 60€. I could even get a slightly older 4370 kV version for slightly less. They seem like a good deal, but I wonder what these motors actually offer: Their idle RPM is lower, but peak power is more than twice than that a fast brushed motor. This leads me to believe top speed should only be similar (higher power should lead to higher top speed due to resistance even though idle speed is lower), but acceleration (P=E/t=F*v=m*a*v) at any given speed should be much higher.

In short:
- Does a finned brushless motor (in a typically enclosed Tamiya gearbox) run cooler?
- Does a brushless motor, given its higher power, lead to even higher battery temperatures?
- Does a 3200 kV motor (with "Tamiya gear ratios") offer a top speed or merely an acceleration (=wear) advantage over a fast brushed motor?

Thank you in advance!

Best,
Rookie Rabbit

[alvinlwh]

15 hours ago, Rookie Rabbit said:

Does a finned brushless motor (in a typically enclosed Tamiya gearbox) run cooler?

Personally I stay away from the 540F motors as they are in fact a 380 in a 540 sized case with fins. 380, in case you didn't know, runs faster with less torque, leading to even more heat. I will go the other way and go even bigger to 550/3660 for heat problem. They run slower but have more torque.