Tamiya Sport Tuned Silver Can Question...

[River19 225]

1 hour ago, Twinfan said:

Tamiya say:

Sport Tuned: https://www.tamiya.com/english/products/53068/index.html

"★Input voltage: 6-8.4V ★Maximum torque: 350g-cm (at 7.2V) ★Maximum RPM: 18,300 (at 7.2V) ★23T

GT-Tuned: https://tamiya.com/english/products/53779/index.html

"★Input voltage: 7.2-8.4V ★RPM (without load): 19,000 ★Maximum torque: 500g/cm (@ 7.2V)"

Based on that, I think the specified GT-Tuned RPM was measured at 8.4v, as @GToddC5 pointed out, and Tamiya are being a little coy on their website.  Although on the box they claim it was at 7.2v...... 

The Sport Tuned over performs and the GT-Tuned under performs.  The Sport Tuned seems to be the best upgrade option for the money if you're using a Tamiya ESC by the look of it.

I think it really depends on the intended use, which I know is a "Captain Obvious" statement but.......for my applications racing on-road carpet with the TT-02, Euro Truck and now about to race the DT-04 for giggles in a "silver can class" the Tourque Tuned with proper gearing is the better performer for tighter courses where punch from the corners and punch before jumps is key.  The Sport Tuned makes its torque up high in the Rpm range where we spend little time on most race tracks and if geared similarly to the TT the SP runs way hot after a 5 min heat on 2S.

I'm a fan of the TT for that reason.......I don't have the option to try the GT in any of these classes but it sounds like it might be a high torque/lower high end rpm motor.

 

[Twinfan 2325]

I was thinking about general bashing and re-res but yep, as always, it's horses for courses 

[MadAnt 770]

2 hours ago, Twinfan said:

★Input voltage: 7.2-8.4V ★RPM (without load): 19,000 ★Maximum torque: 500g/cm (@ 7.2V)"

Based on that, I think the specified GT-Tuned RPM was measured at 8.4v, as @GToddC5 pointed out, and Tamiya are being a little coy on their website.  Although on the box they claim it was at 7.2v...... 

This might be a marketing problem when both the box and the websites lie.

https://www.tamiyausa.com/shop/electronics/rc-motor-25t-brushed-540/

"★Input voltage: 7.2-7.4V ★RPM (without load): 19,000 ★Maximum torque: 500g/cm (@ 7.2V)"

[MadAnt 770]

Double post, delete this one please.

[GToddC5 2660]

Found some more evidence of the GT Tuned being a slug compared to Sport Tuned:

 

 

[Thommo 1422]

Then run taller gearing and test both and see what happens.  I already know which one overheats faster….🤣

[GToddC5 2660]

8 hours ago, Thommo said:

Then run taller gearing and test both and see what happens.  I already know which one overheats faster….🤣

That's all fine and good, but it's false advertising with no load. It's only 19k @ 8.4V and should reflect that. I have a few of these that I have no desire to use at stock silver can RPMs, and would not have purchased them if honest specs were advertised (Other than one for my motor collection display). I guess they might be good for heavier models, I dunno what I'll use them for.

[alvinlwh 7738]

13 hours ago, GToddC5 said:

I have no desire to use at stock silver can RPMs

Same here. I bought 2 of them as a posh Sport Tuned and they turned out to be more or less a posh silver can, which I thought is supposed to be the Formula Tuned.

[GToddC5 2660]

10 hours ago, alvinlwh said:

Same here. I bought 2 of them as a posh Sport Tuned and they turned out to be more or less a posh silver can, which I thought is supposed to be the Formula Tuned.

I've been using quite a few of the 53983 Lightly Tuned motors as a posh silver can (admittedly because of the blue end bell for color themed builds) and it's very punchy at it's rated 565 @ 16,300

I have yet to spin it up on the 'ol Trinity Horsepower Machine, so I'll have to add that to my next test batch of motors. Ultimately I'll test them all.

[alvinlwh 7738]

2 hours ago, GToddC5 said:

Lightly Tuned motors as a posh silver can

I see the LT more as the posh TT (closer RPM). Looking forward to your actual test numbers. 

[Pylon80 4231]

51 minutes ago, alvinlwh said:

I see the LT more as the posh TT (closer RPM). Looking forward to your actual test numbers. 

My LT felt slower than a TT... But we all know what "feel" is worth for these things so I am too looking forward to Dyno results.

[OoALEJOoO 3509]

One of my frustrated projects was to build performance curves for all Tamiya motors currently available. Went as far as getting the motors. My jaw dropped when checking how much a small motor dyno costs...

I've been on & off brainstorming how to do a home-made dyno since then, but any solution is probably even costlier than getting a dyno.

[Elbowloh 1486]

18 minutes ago, OoALEJOoO said:

One of my frustrated projects was to build performance curves for all Tamiya motors currently available. Went as far as getting the motors. My jaw dropped when checking how much a small motor dyno costs...

I've been on & off brainstorming how to do a home-made dyno since then, but any solution is probably even costlier than getting a dyno.

I think people would like to see these motors used in the same car and speed runs compared....

 

Just a thought (do it, do it, do it).

[River19 225]

19 minutes ago, OoALEJOoO said:

One of my frustrated projects was to build performance curves for all Tamiya motors currently available. Went as far as getting the motors. My jaw dropped when checking how much a small motor dyno costs...

I've been on & off brainstorming how to do a home-made dyno since then, but any solution is probably even costlier than getting a dyno.

Well, you already went THAT far, what's the cost of a dyno lol.

BTW, where does the 540J fall in the spectrum.......based on the numbers I think it is fairly "sluggish"......

[OoALEJOoO 3509]

26 minutes ago, Elbowloh said:

I think people would like to see these motors used in the same car and speed runs compared....

Just a thought (do it, do it, do it).

That could be a fallback plan, come spring. I'll have to check my batteries are consistent enough as I only have NiMH. I'll have to get some sort of tachometer device.

25 minutes ago, River19 said:

Well, you already went THAT far, what's the cost of a dyno lol.

All the motors were around 250 bucks, and I can use them in cars, so no biggie. A dyno is around 600 bucks and will be used very little once the tests are completed. So far, my best idea for a home dyno is to get a steel disc machined and balanced, fix the motor to a bench, connect the motor via pulley to an axle holding the disc, fix the motor to a stable 7.2V power supply, then flip the on switch and record its sound with a smartphone rpm tachometer app from standstill to max rpm. Process the rpm along with the disc's rotational inertia to compute the rpm vs. torque curve of each motor. Managing the risk of having a steel disc rotating at 20,000+ rpm is part of the cost.

[GToddC5 2660]

46 minutes ago, River19 said:

BTW, where does the 540J fall in the spectrum.......based on the numbers I think it is fairly "sluggish"......

The NIB 540-J that I tested did better than the 14,500 claimed:

16,000 @ 7.2V / 1.16A

 

* My motor testing includes a short run-in that the machine also does, as well as a couple drops of Liberty oil on the bearings/bushings.

 

Edit to add: I can do all the stock 540s I have if people care, as I think I have just about all the different ones, dating back to the very early 540s with the thin white endbell and gold hue can.

 

 

[alvinlwh 7738]

2 hours ago, Elbowloh said:

I think people would like to see these motors used in the same car and speed runs compared....

Then there will be some complaining it will be unfair as the gearing should be X for motor Y.

1 hour ago, OoALEJOoO said:

That could be a fallback plan, come spring. I'll have to check my batteries are consistent enough as I only have NiMH. I'll have to get some sort of tachometer device.

If you are only bench testing, use a bench power supply such as this. 

And if you are to tacho it, perhaps do it on the wheels and work backwards to get the RPM. Yah there will be some lost through the drive train but it should be easier to get a measurement than off the little 3.175mm shaft. 

[MadAnt 770]

2 hours ago, OoALEJOoO said:

I've been on & off brainstorming how to do a home-made dyno since then, but any solution is probably even costlier than getting a dyno.

If you can put a lever on the shaft and have it push or pull a scale, you can figure out how much deadhead/stall torque the motor puts out.

[MadAnt 770]

9 hours ago, GToddC5 said:

The NIB 540-J that I tested did better than the 14,500 claimed:

16,000 @ 7.2V / 1.16A

 

* My motor testing includes a short run-in that the machine also does, as well as a couple drops of Liberty oil on the bearings/bushings.

 

Edit to add: I can do all the stock 540s I have if people care, as I think I have just about all the different ones, dating back to the very early 540s with the thin white endbell and gold hue can.

 

 

Mabuchi vs Johnson modern and old silver cans would be cool.

Also, I put this together last night so I can find out what some motors can rev to. I just cleaned out this Kyosho Atomic Force and it's a little disappointing only revving at 22,500RPM at 7.2v.

Later I'll mess with the timing and make it scream.

Edit,

Made the old Atomic Force scream to about 28,700RPM. It seems like it's got a little bit more in it, but I'm reaching the limit of how far I can turn the end bell before slipping out of the notches.

[OoALEJOoO 3509]

13 hours ago, alvinlwh said:

If you are only bench testing, use a bench power supply such as this. 

And if you are to tacho it, perhaps do it on the wheels and work backwards to get the RPM. Yah there will be some lost through the drive train but it should be easier to get a measurement than off the little 3.175mm shaft. 

I have a very similar power supply with adjustable output voltage that I use to power my chargers. It probably can be adjusted to 7.2V. Instead of tacho, an option could be to record the sound using a smartphone spectrum analyzer and deduce the speed from the FFT peaks.

13 hours ago, MadAnt said:

If you can put a lever on the shaft and have it push or pull a scale, you can figure out how much deadhead/stall torque the motor puts out.

That's a very interesting thought given small DC motors tend to have a linear troque-rpm response. Only two datapoints would be needed: one at stall zero rpm & max torque (obtained as you mention) and the other one at max rpm & zero torque. With these two points, the whole response can be interpolated as a straight line.

[chris.alex 1828]

Over the years, I've repeatedly discovered that there are different types of silver cans. Some are shiny, some are matte, some have stickers, some don't, some have a black end bell, some are silver. And then there is the  540-J and 540-N, kind of premium silver cans.

I can't say much about their different characteristics since I've had them in different vehicles. However, I can say that the Torque tuned is better than all of them, and the Sport tuned is even faster. My GT tuned is still waiting to be used; perhaps it's suitable for the Honda City Turbo, which I hope to welcome into my fleet later this year.

[El Gecko 1644]

41 minutes ago, chris.alex said:

Over the years, I've repeatedly discovered that there are different types of silver cans. Some are shiny, some are matte, some have stickers, some don't, some have a black end bell, some are silver. And then there is the  540-J and 540-N, kind of premium silver cans.

I can't say much about their different characteristics since I've had them in different vehicles. However, I can say that the Torque tuned is better than all of them, and the Sport tuned is even faster. My GT tuned is still waiting to be used; perhaps it's suitable for the Honda City Turbo, which I hope to welcome into my fleet later this year.

Thinking in terms of HO slot car motors, I wonder if the different versions of silvercan represent different magnets used inside? Standard 540 would have ceramic (weakest), 540-J would have polymer, and 540-N would have neodymium (strongest). So it would make sense if the J and N versions were sold as upgrades, since they would theoretically have more torque due to the stronger magnets. Depending if they changed the armature windings or timing, the top speed may be slower or faster, or even the same as a standard 540.

I'd be curious to try all of the motors listed so far, since they have so many different claimed max RPMs and torque numbers. Not just a dyno session for each, it would be very interesting to do some actual driving with various cars on various surfaces to see which motors stand out for different purposes. After having brown-outs with low-turn motors and limited options for low gearing, like some of you I'm starting to find my way back to higher turn motors.

[Twinfan 2325]

I thought that the N and J motors are essentially identical, and are just supplied by either Mabuchi or Johnson respectively, and Tamiya would use whichever it can get hold of in kits, although most appear to be Mabuchi.  Johnson would then be the backup supplier.  However, the specs are slightly different and the J is listed under Hop-Ups rather than Spares:

https://www.tamiya.com/english/products/53689/index.html

https://www.tamiya.com/english/products/51673/index.html

https://www.tamiyausa.com/shop/electronics/rc-type-540-n-motor/

[MadAnt 770]

7 hours ago, OoALEJOoO said:

Only two datapoints would be needed: one at stall zero rpm & max torque (obtained as you mention) and the other one at max rpm & zero torque. With these two points, the whole response can be interpolated as a straight line.

Correct, and using that data the power output can be easily calculated throughout the RPM range. Torque × RPM = power output. Also, a simple calculator with a graph can be made in Excel if you want to get fancy with it.

[OoALEJOoO 3509]

20 minutes ago, MadAnt said:

Correct, and using that data the power output can be easily calculated throughout the RPM range. Torque × RPM = power output.

The only missing curve would be the one for efficiency given power draw won't be measured along the range. Not a big deal though.

21 minutes ago, MadAnt said:

Also, a simple calculator with a graph can be made in Excel if you want to get fancy with it.

Excel and I share a lot of love . Getting the motor data was just the first step in a bigger plan that was started some time ago:

TamiyaClub - Theoretical Speed Distance Curves