Why do you think Tamiya still uses brushed motors as stock?

[Wooders28]

4 minutes ago, Crucial said:

But crucially they don't add feel'less electric power steering to the mix, then sellotape an ipad to the dash!

Brushless are more efficient, more reliable and more powerful.

Brushed are similar to Carb engines...

 

[skom25]

7 minutes ago, Wooders28 said:

Brushless are more efficient, more reliable and more powerful.

Brushed are similar to Carb engines...

 

Yep. However, if you run your car for 30 minutes per week to have fun for a moment, it does not matter if you have carb, injection, hybrid or EV.

[El Gecko]

The way I see it, silvercans are like those cheapo batteries you get for a new TV remote or something. They're enough to get you going right out of the box, although there are usually better options out there. But in the case of a silvercan, it's like having cheapo batteries that last basically forever.

[Kowalski86]

26 minutes ago, Siclick33 said:

 Look at the number of threads where people are asking (even complaining) how to use the Hobbywing ESCs because the switch is a different size to the Tamiya ESC switch.

Look at how many threads complain about the handling of vintage-re-release kits, even though they were designed to run heavy old batteries, a 4-AA receiver pack, and a second servo. Take all of that away, add a LiPO and a lot of older Tamiyas won't handle correctly without adjustments.

[Crucial]

29 minutes ago, Wooders28 said:

Brushless are more efficient, more reliable and more powerful.

Brushed are similar to Carb engines...

 

It's a cost thing, no one is seeking out vintage Nosram Exterminators to run their RCs on, everyone bungs in a hobbywing 1060 because they are a tenner and they work well enough (albeit with slight cr*ppy brakes). FWIW half my RCs are brushed and half brushless, sometimes a vintage chassis screams out for a vintage mill and sometimes it doesn't, My 80's Kyosho Optima has a 9t brushless tho'

[Kowalski86]

49 minutes ago, alvinlwh said:

I actually had someone said "If you cannot afford lipo and brushless, you should not be RCing". That really puts me off anything the fan boys say after that. 

They've done a good job at killing my interest. Next they'll tell me how I should throw away my art tools and only use a drawing tablet, throw away my toothbrush for an electric one, or throw away my books for an Ipad 95G.

[alvinlwh]

32 minutes ago, Siclick33 said:

If they left the brushed motor out of the kit then they could probably reduce the retail price by less than $1. Would that really make any difference to whether you would buy the kit? It might, however, turn a lot of people off buying a kit who are happy with a cheap silver can/torque tuned motor, if they now have to go and buy that separately. I have many kits that are quite happy trundling round with a silver can (e.g. my Lunchbox). My TC-01 benefits from brushless but that doesn't come with a motor/ESC. Maybe Tamiya know what the majority of their target audience uses - e.g. how many TT-02s in the real world are being run happily on the supplied silver cans, and how many people immediately upgrade to brushless?

 

33 minutes ago, Siclick33 said:

I think the fact that Tamiya doesn't supply ball bearings for the majority of their models gives an indication of their mindset. I would opine that they would likely start including ball bearings well before they start supplying kits with brushless motors, so I'm not holding my breath for a change any time soon. 

All kits (decent or otherwise) I buy from other companies like 3R, Xpress, MST, etc... come with no ESC and motor (and sometimes not even a pinion). They do, however, come with bearings, universals and CVA. Most people buying into those brands will put some brushless system in and they will probably had one planned before buying the kit.

Me? I always install a silver can (at one time even a 380) in them first to get used to the new chassis before putting in anything more powerful.

[El Gecko]

48 minutes ago, Crucial said:

But crucially they don't add feel'less electric power steering to the mix, then sellotape an ipad to the dash!

Increasingly, they do. Electric power steering has become a new hot thing for vintage cars because it allows you to put any engine in, regardless of the setup of the old steering box, location of the shaft, etc. Just ditch it!

And yeah, Holley has screens on their aftermarket tuning systems to simulate gauges, which in some cases are just taped to the dashboard.

So it's creeping into vintage cars now too!

[Wooders28]

43 minutes ago, skom25 said:

Yep. However, if you run your car for 30 minutes per week to have fun for a moment, it does not matter if you have carb, injection, hybrid or EV.

One of the reasons swapping IC engines for brushless motors is a thing, is because of the hassle of having to start an engine with a Carb thats been left sat for a while, that goes out of tune if the weather changes or you look at it wrong.

Even in the 1:1 world, setting up carbs can be a pain, (especially if you've twin + carbs to balance), it's only really the hard-core classic guys battling on with Carb set ups, instead of upgrading to injection and modern ignition systems..

 

35 minutes ago, Crucial said:

everyone bungs in a hobbywing 1060 because they are a tenner and they work well enough (albeit with slight cr*ppy brakes).

Run down to a 10t , run 3s and have lipo cut off! If you need quicker, brushless...

Think I've a Bullhead and a Novafox still running brushed ,mainly as I'd need 2 systems for the Bullhead, so went for 860/15t firebolts, and you have to strip the Novafox to get to the esc! (Also running 15t firebolt, but has run over 40mph on 3s..)

(If you run a 1060 in for/rev setting, the drag brakes in neutral are brilliant!! 🤷‍♂️)

 

37 minutes ago, Crucial said:

My 80's Kyosho Optima has a 9t brushless tho'

 

My 80's Mid Custom is running a 5.5t...

(But I've managed to nail a Schumacher multi plate slipper in there...)

 

[LMF5000]

Thanks for all the comments. Some good arguments and some perplexing ones. FWIW my first brushless setup needed soldering, but my latest have not. Hobbywing now use standard bullet connectors on the motors that just plug into the ESC, and the quikrun fusion series incorporates the ESC inside the motor itself (the battery just plugs into the motor) so there no connection at all needed. In contrast, my uncle's coveted original Tamiya Porsche 959 had instructions in the manual itself for how to solder the pigtails of the brushes to the terminals of the included Technogold motor as part of routine maintenance...

And my sensored brushless models feel absolutely identical to my brushed ones, The "digital feel" is no different - unless you're comparing to a sensorless setup which intrinsically has cogging and jerkiness until the rotor speeds up enough for the ESC to read the voltage of the unpowered coils.

Now, I can see the allure of vintage cars. In fact I buy mechanical watches because they're fun (even though a modern quartz is 100 times more accurate). I wouldn't daily-drive an engine with a carb (I've had enough frustration with my generator and outboard motor), but I see why it might be fun on a weekend car. If brushes and nickel batteries give you that kind of enjoyment then that's a great reason to keep them.

Tamiya kits have a lot of advantages - the quality, the continued parts availability even decades later, the good manuals and the enjoyable build process. But it could be so much better if they embraced certain mature modern developments like ball bearings, brushless motors and lipo batteries. Then we would benefit from the economies of scale and we'd generate less waste too.

I'm sorry but a lot of arguments against this progress sound like they're coming from people who have never touched a lithium battery or a brushless motor (same feeling as people who hate full size EVs mainly due to fear of change and quote blatant misinformation to justify it). Brushless are NOT more complicated. You still plug the motor into the ESC, you just have an extra third wire and possibly a sensor cable. Anyone with the technical prowess to build a Tamiya assembly kit can surely figure it out. You plug a LiPo into the ESC or the charger same as you do an NiMH. The bundled ESC in my last 3 Tamiyas has already supported lipos out of the box (just needed the jumper moved to the lipo setting). All but the cheapest hobby chargers support LiPo already. The $0.20 chip in every power bank implements a full blown lipo charger. You can literally cobble together a DIY lipo charger from any CC/CV bench supply. But you cannot build a delta-peak detection NiMH charger easily. So Lipo chargers are literally simpler than NiMH chargers. Anyone saying different is probably trying to gouge you on an overpriced lipo charger. 

And same argument you made for Mabuchi motors applies - lithium batteries are used in every commercial product from full size EVs to phones, laptops and vacuum cleaners. If anything it's sub-C NiMH cells that are a speciality product these days.

I was a little surprised that the switches of the bundled ESC in my last three kits didn't fit the spot intended for the traditional large screwed-in Tamiya-branded ESC switch and I had to figure out how to stick it somewhere reachable with double-sided tape. Tamiya felt it was iok to bundle an ESC with an incompatible switch and no updated instructions. So I don't think compatibility and support is the reason for not bundling a brushless motor and ESC that would be a drop-in replacement for a brushed 540 setup either.

[Siclick33]

12 minutes ago, LMF5000 said:

'm sorry but a lot of arguments against this progress sound like they're coming from people who have never touched a lithium battery or a brushless motor (same feeling as people who hate full size EVs mainly due to fear of change and quote blatant misinformation to justify it). Brushless are NOT more complicated. You still plug the motor into the ESC, you just have an extra third wire and possibly a sensor cable. Anyone with the technical prowess to build a Tamiya assembly kit can surely figure it out. You plug a LiPo into the ESC or the charger same as you do an NiMH. The bundled ESC in my last 3 Tamiyas has already supported lipos out of the box (just needed the jumper moved to the lipo setting). All but the cheapest hobby chargers support LiPo already. The $0.20 chip in every power bank implements a full blown lipo charger. You can literally cobble together a DIY lipo charger from any CC/CV bench supply. But you cannot build a delta-peak detection NiMH charger easily. So Lipo chargers are literally simpler than NiMH chargers. Anyone saying different is probably trying to gouge you on an overpriced lipo charger. 

And same argument you made for Mabuchi motors applies - lithium batteries are used in every commercial product from full size EVs to phones, laptops and vacuum cleaners. If anything it's sub-C NiMH cells that are a speciality product these days.

I was a little surprised that the switches of the bundled ESC in my last three kits didn't fit the spot intended for the traditional large screwed-in Tamiya-branded ESC switch and I had to figure out how to stick it somewhere reachable with double-sided tape. Tamiya felt it was iok to bundle an ESC with an incompatible switch and no updated instructions. So I don't think compatibility and support is the reason for not bundling a brushless motor and ESC that would be a drop-in replacement for a brushed 540 setup either.

I'm sorry but I disagree.

Brushless motors/ESCs are inherently more complicated. For a start they have 3 motor wires whereas a brushed motor has 2. And a sensored motor has an extra cable. 'Standard' bullet connectors come in different sizes. LiPos need to be balanced/stored correctly, with a suitable charger - if you get it wrong then there is a fire risk. You talk about 'cobbling together a DIY Lipo charger', which I'm not sure is a good idea for a new user. You don't need delta peak to charger NiMhs. Comparing phone batteries with RC LiPos is not comparing like with like.

What you are saying is that they might not be more complicated 'to you'. That doesn't mean that they are simple for everyone who buys a Tamiya kit. It doesn't take long looking through questions on the forums to see that not all Tamiya buyers are RC savvy. I have lost count how many times I have seen a post asking why an ESC doesn't work, and you can see that the servo plug is backwards in the receiver. That's not a criticism of those without the knowledge - it is in fact a complement to Tamiya that they can sell car kits to people with zero knowledge and get them to work with minimal fuss.

As for the ESC, you say that you needed to 'figure out' how to stick it somewhere. This really isn't a difficult exercise and doesn't need 'figuring out' - you just stick it on, but it has thrown many a newcomer, showing just how confusing it can be for some of the potential Tamiya customers who might not have an RC background. The ESC change was somewhat forced on Tamiya due to Covid supply issues - I am a little surprised that they haven't included an addendum sheet (and even a part to allow the switch to fit in the original location).

And in case you are implying that my post was coming from 'people who have never touched a lithium battery', I can assure you that I am very familiar with very high powered lithium/brushless setups in cars, helicopters, airplanes and EDF jets. I use a lot of different battery chemistry types depending on the application. However, I still use brushed motors with NiMh on some (most) of my Tamiya kits as they are, undoubtedly, simpler and less hassle. If you prefer lipo/brushless then that is great - nothing is stopping you!

 

[Twinfan]

1 hour ago, LMF5000 said:

Thanks for all the comments. Some good arguments and some perplexing ones. FWIW my first brushless setup needed soldering, but my latest have not. Hobbywing now use standard bullet connectors on the motors that just plug into the ESC, and the quikrun fusion series incorporates the ESC inside the motor itself (the battery just plugs into the motor) so there no connection at all needed. In contrast, my uncle's coveted original Tamiya Porsche 959 had instructions in the manual itself for how to solder the pigtails of the brushes to the terminals of the included Technogold motor as part of routine maintenance...

And my sensored brushless models feel absolutely identical to my brushed ones, The "digital feel" is no different - unless you're comparing to a sensorless setup which intrinsically has cogging and jerkiness until the rotor speeds up enough for the ESC to read the voltage of the unpowered coils.

Now, I can see the allure of vintage cars. In fact I buy mechanical watches because they're fun (even though a modern quartz is 100 times more accurate). I wouldn't daily-drive an engine with a carb (I've had enough frustration with my generator and outboard motor), but I see why it might be fun on a weekend car. If brushes and nickel batteries give you that kind of enjoyment then that's a great reason to keep them.

Tamiya kits have a lot of advantages - the quality, the continued parts availability even decades later, the good manuals and the enjoyable build process. But it could be so much better if they embraced certain mature modern developments like ball bearings, brushless motors and lipo batteries. Then we would benefit from the economies of scale and we'd generate less waste too.

I'm sorry but a lot of arguments against this progress sound like they're coming from people who have never touched a lithium battery or a brushless motor (same feeling as people who hate full size EVs mainly due to fear of change and quote blatant misinformation to justify it). Brushless are NOT more complicated. You still plug the motor into the ESC, you just have an extra third wire and possibly a sensor cable. Anyone with the technical prowess to build a Tamiya assembly kit can surely figure it out. You plug a LiPo into the ESC or the charger same as you do an NiMH. The bundled ESC in my last 3 Tamiyas has already supported lipos out of the box (just needed the jumper moved to the lipo setting). All but the cheapest hobby chargers support LiPo already. The $0.20 chip in every power bank implements a full blown lipo charger. You can literally cobble together a DIY lipo charger from any CC/CV bench supply. But you cannot build a delta-peak detection NiMH charger easily. So Lipo chargers are literally simpler than NiMH chargers. Anyone saying different is probably trying to gouge you on an overpriced lipo charger. 

And same argument you made for Mabuchi motors applies - lithium batteries are used in every commercial product from full size EVs to phones, laptops and vacuum cleaners. If anything it's sub-C NiMH cells that are a speciality product these days.

I was a little surprised that the switches of the bundled ESC in my last three kits didn't fit the spot intended for the traditional large screwed-in Tamiya-branded ESC switch and I had to figure out how to stick it somewhere reachable with double-sided tape. Tamiya felt it was iok to bundle an ESC with an incompatible switch and no updated instructions. So I don't think compatibility and support is the reason for not bundling a brushless motor and ESC that would be a drop-in replacement for a brushed 540 setup either.

I think you have your opinion, others have theirs, and you're not accepting the other viewpoint as being valid  

I get that there are speed, weight and maintenance advantages to brushless and LiPo, which you want to embrace, but I personally couldn't care less.  They're not that important to me.  Feel, vibe, old-skool-ness, and nostalgia are.  Horses for courses.  Tamiya is an old-skool company.  They don't produce a modern cab-forward bodied carpet racer for a reason.  I don't think a Tamiya kit would be "better" with modern additions, in fact I think they'd be worse.  The only exception would be ball bearings!

And this is from someone who has a few brushless motors knocking about in a few cars, and more in the build queue.  As for LiPo, I'm perfectly happen with them in my mobile phone but I can't be bothered with the additional hassle of storage precautions, storage voltage and charging safety over above those for NiMH for my RC toy cars.

It sounds like you may drive a 1:1 EV too?  That's great if it suits you, I personally wouldn't touch one with someone else's bargepole but I don't try and convert other people who love them to my way of thinking.  I accept their choice and do my own thing  

[alvinlwh]

Oh yeah, the usual "say anything negative about what I like means you must be a progress hating dinosaur that had never tried out new technology". Well I guess I qualify as a dinosaur...

[Kowalski86]

Sometimes I feel like I'm this guy in the hobby, the "Obsolete Man". Apparently toy cars can only be enjoyed under very specific circumstances and only by using the correct technology. I will now surrender my crystals, my silver cans, and return to my books. 

[skom25]

I see that it started to be bit hot here...

I do not see reason to argue about brushed vs brushless.

If you like brushless, buy it. If you like brushed, stay with kit version or buy upgraded.

There is no "correct way" to do things in RC, especially if we talk about low/ medium range Tamiya cars. Probably it sounds strange, but some time ago I also was person who thought that there is only one way to do things.

As I wrote previously, Tamiya has A LOT of things to improve, before they switch to brushless in kit. You wrote about TT-02BR which is low/ medium end kit. Please take a look on e.g. DT-02/3 or TT-02 and tell me, that first thing which is necessary for these kits is Brushless system.

Do you ride bikes? I do a lot and I had a lot of different bikes. I will never buy anything below medium price level bike. It does not mean that cheaper bikes are bad and should not exist, despite they are worse and less efficient. It means that they are designed for people with lower expectations.

[skom25]

2 minutes ago, Kowalski86 said:

Sometimes I feel like I'm this guy in the hobby, the "Obsolete Man". Apparently toy cars can only be enjoyed under very specific circumstances and only by using the correct technology. I will now surrender my crystals and return to my books. 

It is exactly the same with each hobby.

[alvinlwh]

My just completed TT-02 built out of left over and bargain basement parts powered by, of course a silver can. Will it be as fun as a brushless. Well... 

@skom25 two controversial threads in TC in a week, got to be a record! 

[Wooders28]

2 hours ago, LMF5000 said:

people who hate full size EVs mainly due to fear of change and quote blatant misinformation to justify it

Urm, nope

I hate them because they don't do anything for me,  and offer nothing but a vessel to get from A to B. (I don't like on-road RC much either tbh, life's much more fun in 3D) 

'Engine' swap / restomod the Tesla's good bits into something cool, like a Mk2 Jag, and then maybe...

 

2 hours ago, LMF5000 said:

You can literally cobble together a DIY lipo charger 

Not something I wouldn't be comfortable with tbh, that's way above my level of electronic knowledge (qualified in Mechatronics too...😬) 

 

I'm quite happy there's still a market for brushed , as it means I can punt my nip brushed motors and ESC's when I open a kit, and help fund a brushless set up (yes my DT03 have brushless, Castle 3800 in one, and 5700kv in the other...)

[LMF5000]

1 hour ago, Siclick33 said:

I'm sorry but I disagree.

Brushless motors/ESCs are inherently more complicated. For a start they have 3 motor wires whereas a brushed motor has 2. And a sensored motor has an extra cable. 'Standard' bullet connectors come in different sizes. LiPos need to be balanced/stored correctly, with a suitable charger - if you get it wrong then there is a fire risk. You talk about 'cobbling together a DIY Lipo charger', which I'm not sure is a good idea for a new user. You don't need delta peak to charger NiMhs. Comparing phone batteries with RC LiPos is not comparing like with like.

What you are saying is that they might not be more complicated 'to you'. That doesn't mean that they are simple for everyone who buys a Tamiya kit. It doesn't take long looking through questions on the forums to see that not all Tamiya buyers are RC savvy. I have lost count how many times I have seen a post asking why an ESC doesn't work, and you can see that the servo plug is backwards in the receiver. That's not a criticism of those without the knowledge - it is in fact a complement to Tamiya that they can sell car kits to people with zero knowledge and get them to work with minimal fuss.

As for the ESC, you say that you needed to 'figure out' how to stick it somewhere. This really isn't a difficult exercise and doesn't need 'figuring out' - you just stick it on, but it has thrown many a newcomer, showing just how confusing it can be for some of the potential Tamiya customers who might not have an RC background. The ESC change was somewhat forced on Tamiya due to Covid supply issues - I am a little surprised that they haven't included an addendum sheet (and even a part to allow the switch to fit in the original location).

And in case you are implying that my post was coming from 'people who have never touched a lithium battery', I can assure you that I am very familiar with very high powered lithium/brushless setups in cars, helicopters, airplanes and EDF jets. I use a lot of different battery chemistry types depending on the application. However, I still use brushed motors with NiMh on some (most) of my Tamiya kits as they are, undoubtedly, simpler and less hassle. If you prefer lipo/brushless then that is great - nothing is stopping you!

 

I want to pick your brain a bit. You are obviously familiar with the technology and well versed in both sides, but you have deliberately chosen brushed and NiMH. Can you explain why in more detail? Just genuinely interested in how other people think.

My experience so far has been the opposite - I start with stock cars, find them lacking in power, speed or efficiency, look at a brushed upgrade, realise that brushless only costs a little more, fit a brushless setup and it makes them more fun. Likewise I was disappointed with my NiMH batteries (long charge time vs running time, noticeable decrease in power as they deplete, self-discharging to nothing over a few days even if unused etc). My first cheap lipos didn't last long, they developed high internal resistance and became scrap within 50 cycles, but my current modern ones are amazing and on many models are drop-in replacements - same dimensions, same connectors etc.

Actually it was my R/C background that made me pursue engineering, and that early experience figuring out how to convert a TT-01 to LiPo and brushless in the early 2000s that made me originally interested in power electronics. My largest battery is a 4s 280Ah LiFePO4  (~3kWh) that I use in a DIY power station that replaced my generator to power my house during power cuts.

Things can undoubtedly be made simpler - most large scale lithium batteries integrate a BMS that keeps the cells actively balanced and cuts the output if any cell gets too high or too low so they're drop-in replacements for other chemistries, no external protection necessary and no balance lead. R/C lipos still rely on the charger for balancing and on "good luck" to avoid over-discharge (since they are top-balanced on the charger and fall out of sync when fully discharged - but the ESC is only seeing total voltage not per-cell voltage so the lowest cell can dip far below 3V before the ESC cuts out).

[GToddC5]

For me it's the feeling I hope to get from each model. Most of the time I like to use a period correct 540 that would have come with the model. Other times, I want to use a period correct recommended hop-up motor that was either on the box side, or a Guide Book. I thoroughly enjoy all the Tamiya brushed motors and matching them up to models. I also enjoy deciding which I want to use with and MSC, BEC or battery pack, CPR, ESC, etc. I just love it, and obviously I have a connection with the past and reliving great moments. Same thing with the batteries! I enjoy looking through the build manuals and Guide Books to see which batteries were used in which models. Then since I have most of them, I like to gently charge them up and run the car with the "right" battery, take pics to share, etc. I mean, the feeling I get with a perfectly functioning Gold Power or EX battery installed in a model or just sitting on display - man, they are so cool to me.

I will say, the BBX changed my normal feeling - so at least I know I'm open to change. It was a new model that didn't invoke vintage feelings for me. Instead, I fully embraced everything recommended in the manual and on the box. So I went as far as to purchase the FineSpec 2.4G radio, TBLE-04SR ESC, TBLM-02S 10.5T BL motor, TSU-06 servo and LF2200 battery. Basically, a 280 dollar car with $360 in running gear that some of the BL people here wouldn't even regard as a good or reasonable choice! But I say all this because I run off emotion and not what others think. I care about the happiness I can obtain from the hobby. Brushed motors in Tamiya kits in 2025 make me happy, and kits that don't come with motors make me happy, and if one day a Tamiya kit comes with a BL motor - it will make me happy. This is because I can find the thrill in any of the situations.

I would hope that members can find their happy place in this hobby, too, and maybe it's not all about money saved by us or Tamiya. I mean, Tamiya themselves may still have their own romantic connection with the beloved brushed motor. Think of the special edition motors they did for the re-re Avante, Avante Black and Bigwig. Or the Blockhead motors (even if it's just a sticker). How about the revised Sport Tuned motor with vintage packaging? They didn't have to do any of those, but isn't it cool that they did? If anything, I'm saddened that they seem to have stopped or at least be in a lull for putting out new brushed motors. I'm also saddened when looking at the Tamiya line of BL motors with no passion - They all look the same, just different turns.

Sorry - I was all over the place there 

 

[Saito2]

I apologize if my previous post came across as antagonistic. It wasn't directed at the original poster, just the ongoing theme of these brushless and/or lipo threads we have on this forum. There are folks that like new or newer technology and those that don't. The issue is (and again, not strictly this thread in particular at the beginning) the folks embracing new tech seem to constantly ask "why why why? Why isn't everybody embracing it when it is clearly better?" Sometimes that question is honest curiosity. That's great. Its good to at least try to understand others' reasoning. But sometimes it devolves into bickering about who's right and who's wrong. The thing is.........I never see threads started by brushed/nimh folks asking why others are using newer tech. Old school guys just do their own thing and always seem to be on the defensive in these discussions.

BTW, I drive old 1:1 cars. I also support electric cars. I don't personally like electric cars but that doesn't mean I don't support their development. Adopting electric cars for mundane things like delivery trucks and school buses or people that just need an appliance to drive to work mean I can keep running my old car. Technically, we should all be using mass transit anyway as electric cars don't solve congestion and the induced demand from ever growing roadways but that is a total different discussion. I feel everyone should do what they enjoy as long as it doesn't actually hurt anyone else.

[skom25]

52 minutes ago, alvinlwh said:

@skom25 two controversial threads in TC in a week, got to be a record! 

Still 4 hours to midnight here!  Maybe something about "Machine Screws vs Self Tappers"?

19 minutes ago, LMF5000 said:

My experience so far has been the opposite - I start with stock cars, find them lacking in power, speed or efficiency, look at a brushed upgrade, realise that brushless only costs a little more, fit a brushless setup and it makes them more fun.

Exactly: your experience.

My experience is that I can run TT-02 with fan over motor for 30 minutes on 4000 mAh NimH pack and motor is still cold. Usually I take two cars to run, so it gives me around 1h run time with 2 or 3 packs ( 4000 and 3300).

To be honest, I get bored sooner than I am able to run all packs.

In that case, please tell my, what is the reason to buy Brushless?

[LMF5000]

2 hours ago, Twinfan said:

I think you have your opinion, others have theirs, and you're not accepting the other viewpoint as being valid  

I get that there are speed, weight and maintenance advantages to brushless and LiPo, which you want to embrace, but I personally couldn't care less.  They're not that important to me.  Feel, vibe, old-skool-ness, and nostalgia are.  Horses for courses.  Tamiya is an old-skool company.  They don't produce a modern cab-forward bodied carpet racer for a reason.  I don't think a Tamiya kit would be "better" with modern additions, in fact I think they'd be worse.  The only exception would be ball bearings!

And this is from someone who has a few brushless motors knocking about in a few cars, and more in the build queue.  As for LiPo, I'm perfectly happen with them in my mobile phone but I can't be bothered with the additional hassle of storage precautions, storage voltage and charging safety over above those for NiMH for my RC toy cars.

It sounds like you may drive a 1:1 EV too?  That's great if it suits you, I personally wouldn't touch one with someone else's bargepole but I don't try and convert other people who love them to my way of thinking.  I accept their choice and do my own thing  

I'm not saying my way is the only way. I'm just saying some of the arguments raised here do not sound like the answer. We are tamiya builders. We are already voluntarily chose to do this hobby on "hard" mode because we are building our cars from pieces, while people who want things simple just buy an RTR. More complexity doesn't sound like something that should dissuade the Tamiya audience given that we're tinkerers who actually enjoy figuring things out. Sure they have three wires and a sensor cable, that's like an extra 30 seconds to plug things in. You've just hand-built a set of oil-filled dampers and put together a differential, you can surely manage swapping two cables if the car moves backwards.

Given that, it sounds like including bearings and a brushless ESC with an entry-level motor is low hanging fruit that could easily let Tamiya sell more kits and appeal to a portion of the market who may be put off by how much extra investment is needed to match the performance of a cheaper RTR. 

Yes Tamiyas are more fun than the competition because they feel challenging and rewarding to drive even at their modest power levels, but how many more years can they survive if they keep putting themselves ever deeper into this niche? The Super Avante and the TT-02 need some plastic cut or parts omitted if you want to fit a brushless motor. Some of their older models like the TT-01 and TA-02 can take brushless without modification. So except for the BBX it would seem some of their newest models are going in the opposite direction regarding motor compatibility.  At least they're going in the right direction in terms of including ball bearings in some kits and accommodating lipos with square not rounded cross-section, which I'm happy to see because it makes the models more future-proof.

[alvinlwh]

4 minutes ago, LMF5000 said:

We are tamiya builders. We are already voluntarily chose to do this hobby on "hard" mode

Most Tamiya are hardly considered "hard". If anything, they are relatively easy compared to other brands. In fact, in the static world, Tamiya kits "just work" and are considered easy. 

12 minutes ago, LMF5000 said:

a brushless ESC with an entry-level motor is low hanging fruit that could easily let Tamiya sell more kits and appeal to a portion of the market who may be put off by how much extra investment is needed

While Tamiya does not sell any kits with a BL setup, I will look at another brand that offers both. Vantage 2.0, brushed £116, brushless £189, a difference of £73. If a GH, WR/GF or a TT cost £70 more, I am sure they will not appeal to a lot of their intended market. 

[LMF5000]

51 minutes ago, Wooders28 said:

Urm, nope

I hate them because they don't do anything for me,  and offer nothing but a vessel to get from A to B. (I don't like on-road RC much either tbh, life's much more fun in 3D) 

'Engine' swap / restomod the Tesla's good bits into something cool, like a Mk2 Jag, and then maybe...

 

Not something I wouldn't be comfortable with tbh, that's way above my level of electronic knowledge (qualified in Mechatronics too...😬) 

 

I'm quite happy there's still a market for brushed , as it means I can punt my nip brushed motors and ESC's when I open a kit, and help fund a brushless set up (yes my DT03 have brushless, Castle 3800 in one, and 5700kv in the other...)

I used to be a petrolhead. The attached image is my previous 1:1 car (turbocharged petrol Alfa Romeo with sequential gearbox to show how much of an enthusiast I was/am). 

I switched to an EV because it just made more sense as a daily driver. The fuel and maintenance savings mean more money for 1:10 "EVs" haha 😁. I've also inspired four family members to switch to electric since being the first one to take the plunge. 

I still see the allure of classic cars, noisy V10s, superchargers etc, but let's face it, your day to day drive involves sitting in a traffic jam and/or cruising on a motorway for hours to get to work, and repeating it on the same route every day. Engines don't really add much joy to that experience. Auto-makers adding ever more ridiculously complex tech to piston engines just to squeeze out 1% less emissions or more efficiency or performance is not fun any more, it just means more very expensive things that can potentially break on modern engines. 

And all for what? Electric motors have one moving part and can instantly make 700hp in a unit the size of a small watermelon with zero noise, vibration or emissions. Now that BYD has demonstrated an EV that can charge in 5 minutes I think engines will eventually be relegated to high-performance or niche applications and normal people will gradually switch to EV over the next 30 years or so - the same way tapes were replaced by CDs and carburettors were replaced with fuel injection and manual gearboxes became torque converter automatics and now dual clutch semi-automatics. Engines make sense for a road trip, or a Sunday car, or a racetrack, or for having fun. But for day to day there's a certain joy that the simplicity of an EV gives and a lot of practical advantages.