Why do you think Tamiya still uses brushed motors as stock?

[LMF5000]

54 minutes ago, GToddC5 said:

For me it's the feeling I hope to get from each model. Most of the time I like to use a period correct 540 that would have come with the model. Other times, I want to use a period correct recommended hop-up motor that was either on the box side, or a Guide Book. I thoroughly enjoy all the Tamiya brushed motors and matching them up to models. I also enjoy deciding which I want to use with and MSC, BEC or battery pack, CPR, ESC, etc. I just love it, and obviously I have a connection with the past and reliving great moments. Same thing with the batteries! I enjoy looking through the build manuals and Guide Books to see which batteries were used in which models. Then since I have most of them, I like to gently charge them up and run the car with the "right" battery, take pics to share, etc. I mean, the feeling I get with a perfectly functioning Gold Power or EX battery installed in a model or just sitting on display - man, they are so cool to me.

I will say, the BBX changed my normal feeling - so at least I know I'm open to change. It was a new model that didn't invoke vintage feelings for me. Instead, I fully embraced everything recommended in the manual and on the box. So I went as far as to purchase the FineSpec 2.4G radio, TBLE-04SR ESC, TBLM-02S 10.5T BL motor, TSU-06 servo and LF2200 battery. Basically, a 280 dollar car with $360 in running gear that some of the BL people here wouldn't even regard as a good or reasonable choice! But I say all this because I run off emotion and not what others think. I care about the happiness I can obtain from the hobby. Brushed motors in Tamiya kits in 2025 make me happy, and kits that don't come with motors make me happy, and if one day a Tamiya kit comes with a BL motor - it will make me happy. This is because I can find the thrill in any of the situations.

I would hope that members can find their happy place in this hobby, too, and maybe it's not all about money saved by us or Tamiya. I mean, Tamiya themselves may still have their own romantic connection with the beloved brushed motor. Think of the special edition motors they did for the re-re Avante, Avante Black and Bigwig. Or the Blockhead motors (even if it's just a sticker). How about the revised Sport Tuned motor with vintage packaging? They didn't have to do any of those, but isn't it cool that they did? If anything, I'm saddened that they seem to have stopped or at least be in a lull for putting out new brushed motors. I'm also saddened when looking at the Tamiya line of BL motors with no passion - They all look the same, just different turns.

Sorry - I was all over the place there 

 

That all makes sense! Same with me, I recently put some work into my 1997 TA-02, I even got it to run with the original NiCd batteries I had bought for it 30 years ago!

My post was not targeted at vintage models, obviously brushless would be completely out of place there. I meant it more in terms of current and future modern kits. I think I may be partially spoiled by many years getting used to the performance of brushless - the bland non-shiny grey canned motors just feel so gutless in comparison it robs away the fun in a non-vintage model like say the TT-02.

[GToddC5]

3 minutes ago, LMF5000 said:

That all makes sense! Same with me, I recently put some work into my 1997 TA-02, I even got it to run with the original NiCd batteries I had bought for it 30 years ago!

My post was not targeted at vintage models, obviously brushless would be completely out of place there. I meant it more in terms of current and future modern kits. I think I may be partially spoiled by many years getting used to the performance of brushless - the bland non-shiny grey canned motors just feel so gutless in comparison it robs away the fun in a non-vintage model like say the TT-02.

Thing is, even most of the current stuff still feels somewhat vintage to me. Whether it's because it's a re-re or simply because it's a chassis that's long in the tooth but still used by them. So thinking more, I can totally see going BL in my TD2 and TD4 when the time comes, and I think it has to do with them being new designs. However, I will use the LF2200 and LF1100 batteries - because Tamiya.

[LMF5000]

46 minutes ago, skom25 said:

Still 4 hours to midnight here!  Maybe something about "Machine Screws vs Self Tappers"?

Exactly: your experience.

My experience is that I can run TT-02 with fan over motor for 30 minutes on 4000 mAh NimH pack and motor is still cold. Usually I take two cars to run, so it gives me around 1h run time with 2 or 3 packs ( 4000 and 3300).

To be honest, I get bored sooner than I am able to run all packs.

In that case, please tell my, what is the reason to buy Brushless?

In a TT-02, the reason to buy brushless is the performance is a world apart. On a track you might not have the space for the extra power due to the tight corners so there's no point, but if you're bashing in an abandoned car park, having the car be 2-3x as fast as you're used to is a LOT of fun and teaches you a whole set of new skills like throttle control, thinking ahead and momentum management. I'm running 4100kv on 3s in my TT02BR and even passersby stop and stare when I'm at more than half throttle. The stopping distance from top speed is about 3 fullsize car lengths so I have to keep a step ahead of it at all times. My slower cars are still fun in their own ways, but a high power brushless is a different world.

To be clear, I'm not suggesting Tamiya put one of those mad setups in the box, I had in mind a super mild brushless setup maybe 20-50% faster than the silver can motor. But since you asked I gave you the full unrestricted overview 😁.

[Twinfan]

51 minutes ago, LMF5000 said:

I'm not saying my way is the only way. I'm just saying some of the arguments raised here do not sound like the answer. We are tamiya builders. We are already voluntarily chose to do this hobby on "hard" mode because we are building our cars from pieces, while people who want things simple just buy an RTR. More complexity doesn't sound like something that should dissuade the Tamiya audience given that we're tinkerers who actually enjoy figuring things out. Sure they have three wires and a sensor cable, that's like an extra 30 seconds to plug things in. You've just hand-built a set of oil-filled dampers and put together a differential, you can surely manage swapping two cables if the car moves backwards.

Given that, it sounds like including bearings and a brushless ESC with an entry-level motor is low hanging fruit that could easily let Tamiya sell more kits and appeal to a portion of the market who may be put off by how much extra investment is needed to match the performance of a cheaper RTR. 

Yes Tamiyas are more fun than the competition because they feel challenging and rewarding to drive even at their modest power levels, but how many more years can they survive if they keep putting themselves ever deeper into this niche? The Super Avante and the TT-02 need some plastic cut or parts omitted if you want to fit a brushless motor. Some of their older models like the TT-01 and TA-02 can take brushless without modification. So except for the BBX it would seem some of their newest models are going in the opposite direction regarding motor compatibility.  At least they're going in the right direction in terms of including ball bearings in some kits and accommodating lipos with square not rounded cross-section, which I'm happy to see because it makes the models more future-proof.

How do you know Tamiya would sell more kits if they made them brushless out of the box?

And what makes you run they won't survive if they stick with brushed?

I would think Tamiya know their customer profile well by now 

[LMF5000]

33 minutes ago, alvinlwh said:

Most Tamiya are hardly considered "hard". If anything, they are relatively easy compared to other brands. In fact, in the static world, Tamiya kits "just work" and are considered easy. 

While Tamiya does not sell any kits with a BL setup, I will look at another brand that offers both. Vantage 2.0, brushed £116, brushless £189, a difference of £73. If a GH, WR/GF or a TT cost £70 more, I am sure they will not appeal to a lot of their intended market. 

Interesting - which brands make harder assembly kits? I might be interested in more of a challenge.

I'm sure if Tamiya were to offer a stock brushless they'd keep any cost increment reasonably small. The vantage brushless is a step up in power from the brushed, I was thinking tamiya might include a brushless setup in the box that's more of a lateral move (not too much faster than the stock brushed), which considering it could be used across so many models might be able to be built for not that much more money if at all.

[LMF5000]

13 minutes ago, Twinfan said:

How do you know Tamiya would sell more kits if they made them brushless out of the box?

And what makes you run they won't survive if they stick with brushed?

I would think Tamiya know their customer profile well by now 

20 years ago Tamiya was THE R/C brand in my country. If you wanted hobby grade R/C you assembled a Tamiya. But these days I'm one of the few people at meets still running and building Tamiyas. Everybody else is driving Arrma, Traxxas and all these higher grade RTR models. All the hobby shops stock only a handful of Tamiya kits compared to a huge lineup of the rest. The only Tamiyas that sell well locally are crawlers like the CC-02 where the low power is perfect, and the really cheap buggies. But Tamiya have practically ceased to participate in the high-end market (TRF), and other than people who actively seek them out for nostalgia or who enjoy the assembly (like me) or who like the brand due to good past experiences, it feels like 90% of newcomers to the hobby just go to other brands by default, and it's at least partially because of real or perceived performance. Just my general feeling based on observations after re-entering the hobby this year.

[alvinlwh]

3 minutes ago, LMF5000 said:

Interesting - which brands make harder assembly kits? I might be interested in more of a challenge.

3 Racing, MST and Xpress are the ones I had experience with. There will be more obviously. Even their base budget entry level kits are far better spec than Tamiya ones of similar price. CVA, universals, bearings, hex hardware and carbon/glass reinforced plastic as standard. Often roll bars and oil diff are also included. 

In the static world, Tamiya kits are known as "shake and bake" - throw some glue and paint in the box, give it a shake and the model is done.

12 minutes ago, LMF5000 said:

I'm sure if Tamiya were to offer a stock brushless they'd keep any cost increment reasonably small.

How much more do you think the increase will be? Given that most of the Tamiya kits* with ESC and motor included are basic kits commonly bought as an impulse buy or a first (few) entry into RC, any increase will put buyers off, ending up with no entry at all to the Tamiya world. 

* seasoned builders who buy into the higher end kits like Pro or TRF kits tend to know what they want and usually no motor or ESC are included in those kits. 

[skom25]

26 minutes ago, LMF5000 said:

In a TT-02, the reason to buy brushless is the performance is a world apart. On a track you might not have the space for the extra power due to the tight corners so there's no point, but if you're bashing in an abandoned car park, having the car be 2-3x as fast as you're used to is a LOT of fun and teaches you a whole set of new skills like throttle control, thinking ahead and momentum management. I'm running 4100kv on 3s in my TT02BR and even passersby stop and stare when I'm at more than half throttle. The stopping distance from top speed is about 3 fullsize car lengths so I have to keep a step ahead of it at all times. My slower cars are still fun in their own ways, but a high power brushless is a different world.

To be clear, I'm not suggesting Tamiya put one of those mad setups in the box, I had in mind a super mild brushless setup maybe 20-50% faster than the silver can motor. But since you asked I gave you the full unrestricted overview 😁.

I absolutely agree but...

I do not want to pay more for kit to get Brushless system.

Why?

Because I can buy it separately. 

You mentioned 20-50% faster than Silver Can. Someone else would say 100% faster. 

If you buy kit with Brushless system and it will not be fast enough, you will be forced to buy more expensive motor than brushed.

[skom25]

25 minutes ago, LMF5000 said:

I'm sure if Tamiya were to offer a stock brushless they'd keep any cost increment reasonably small

I have huge doubts. I think even cheapest Brushless system is way much more expensive than HW1060 and Silver Can.

Let's assume that Brushed set costs 5$. Brushless 10$. Kit price will increase much more than 5$. It is not so simple.

[alvinlwh]

12 minutes ago, LMF5000 said:

20 years ago Tamiya was THE R/C brand in my country.

20 years ago! Now Tamiya mostly rere their ancient stuff or rebox old kits by throwing some mixture of hopups in, label it SRX(xxxxxx) and call it a "new release". 

 

15 minutes ago, LMF5000 said:

Everybody else is driving Arrma, Traxxa

Tamiya had fallen well behind with new, real new, platforms. However do take note of what I said a few post ago, Tamiya is a model company with RC as a side dish. RC is not their core business, even though some here think it is. 

20 minutes ago, LMF5000 said:

people who actively seek them out

When I started off, I was one of those, because my base hobby of 40 years is model making, branching out to RC means I go to them by default. However after 3, I realised how barebones their standard kits are. Building a M-05Ra + 3R MG Evo and a DT-02 + LRP Twister Buggy back to back really showed up how poor Tamiya specs and value is. The problem I have is many of the other brands which often are much better are not avaliable for a reasonable price in the UK or will have to pay for extremely high postage cost to get them from Asia. So I fly out to Asia to buy them at their true sticker price but can only do that once every 2 or 3 years. 

[alvinlwh]

19 minutes ago, skom25 said:

You mentioned 20-50% faster than Silver Can. Someone else would say 100% faster. 

20 - 50% faster than a silver can will be somewhere between a 21.5t - 17.5t. I don't get out of bed for at least a 10.5t these days. 

[Siclick33]

2 hours ago, LMF5000 said:

I want to pick your brain a bit. You are obviously familiar with the technology and well versed in both sides, but you have deliberately chosen brushed and NiMH. Can you explain why in more detail? Just genuinely interested in how other people think.

I find that the basic motors that come with most Tamiyas are fine for normal bashing. If I wanted to race then I'd get a higher-end model, and even the higher-end Tamiyas (TC-01, TA08, TRFs etc) don't come with motors so you would have to pick your own anyway. I have a brushless TC-01 and TT-02R so I am not against them but, for me personally, the silver cans in the Monster Beetle, Lunch Box and the Torque Tuned in my TT-02s etc are fine for my purposes. They are cheap and cheerful but they work. Upgrading motors can have other unintended consequences such as gearbox damage etc. All of this can be mitigated against with upgrades, but for the lower-end models I don't bother. 

As for NiMH, I like them because they are bullet-proof and safe. I don't have to worry too much about charger settings (and not at all on my trickle charger). I don't have to worry about conducting storage charges, balancing, puffing up or catching fire. NiMh obviously aren't the highest performing batteries but they work fine for me, for the basic Tamiyas.

It seems I have the opposite view to you in that, if I wanted to race I would go for a high-end model, with brushless and LiPo. For car park and garden bashing I like the ease and simplicity of brushed and NiMh.

This isn't necessarily the point though, as Tamiya are presumably trying to cater for everyone, and not just RC experts and fanatics; these really are very simple/basic kits for everyone, including young kids. You mentioned earlier about simply swapping a wire to reverse the direction of a brushless motor, which is simple when you have that knowledge, but it isn't obvious to someone who's never seen a RC car kit before let alone a brushless motor - I'm not sure you are looking through the eyes of a complete newcomer when making statements like that. Aside from keeping the costs down (and being able to sell their relatively cheap kits cheaply) the use of basic brushed systems also encourage success, and less problems further down the line, by keeping the components simple and the performance on the safe side.

I also don't use the most expensive digital, brushless, servos on my Lunch Box and similar models either. The servos I use are of a high enough spec to do the job but they don't need to be the best, but that's a whole other discussion.  

[LMF5000]

2 hours ago, skom25 said:

I absolutely agree but...

I do not want to pay more for kit to get Brushless system.

Why?

Because I can buy it separately. 

You mentioned 20-50% faster than Silver Can. Someone else would say 100% faster. 

If you buy kit with Brushless system and it will not be fast enough, you will be forced to buy more expensive motor than brushed.

But right now the kit comes with a brushed ESC, so to switch to a faster brushless you need to buy ESC and motor. If they threw in a basic brushless ESC (say 60A) and basic brushless motor (say 26.5T) and you wanted more speed, you would only need to buy the hotter brushless motor and most likely keep the stock brushless ESC.

[Wooders28]

2 hours ago, LMF5000 said:

used to be a petrolhead. The attached image is my previous 1:1 car (turbocharged petrol Alfa Romeo with sequential gearbox

Ohh, so close.

Needed a 6sp manual upgrade..

Got a drive with the DSG for a while, then had to spend over a year looking for a similar car, upgraded with the 6sp manual, the DSG ruined it. (seemingly, as soon as you want heated leather seats, manufacturers think your left leg doesn't work or you dont like actually driving anymore....) 

 

2 hours ago, LMF5000 said:

but let's face it, your day to day drive involves sitting in a traffic jam and/or cruising on a motorway for hours to get to work

Nope, I work shifts, and on a Sunday morning off a nightshift, with absolutely zero cars on the road at that AM, the old Scottish roads are quite pleasurable! 

Even been known to throw some RC's in the boot, for a spot of gps speed runs on the empty roads. 

During Covid and the 'Covid speed limits' ,getting to work was something else, oh I miss those days...🏎💨💨🙄

 

2 hours ago, LMF5000 said:

expensive things that can potentially break on modern engines.

As with breaking things on an RC, this is a perfect opportunity for upgrades!! 

Oh no, there's a big end rattle, sounds like I'm going to need a stroker crank..😏

Brakes need replaced , hello Brembo's! (had to take a mill off the calipers though, as when the discs got hot after a few corners, they'd start to rub with thermal expansion, might have been easier just throwing the discs in the lathe, but..🤷‍♂️) 

 

2 hours ago, LMF5000 said:

carburettors were replaced with fuel injection

An advantage of more power and reliability 👌

Some purists argue the induction roar isn't the same , (maybe a point on a Pinto with twin 45's , but ....) 

 

2 hours ago, LMF5000 said:

manual gearboxes became torque converter automatics and now dual clutch semi-automatics.

Proper gearboxes downgraded with awful automatics, that just detach the driver and completely ruin the driving experience...

 

2 hours ago, LMF5000 said:

Engines make sense for a road trip

25k miles a year, 

Handful of trips a year towing a 4 berth trailer tent,

Shift work with empty roads on the commute,

Pretty much every journey is a road trip , and just zero inclination to spend any of my hard earned money on just a transport vessel..

 

 

 

[alvinlwh]

17 minutes ago, Wooders28 said:

the old Scottish roads are quite pleasurable! 

Except when the clocks go forward and the roads are clogged up with the NC500ers! 

[LMF5000]

6 minutes ago, Wooders28 said:

Ohh, so close.

Needed a 6sp manual upgrade..

Got a drive with the DSG for a while, then had to spend over a year looking for a similar car, upgraded with the 6sp manual, the DSG ruined it. (seemingly, as soon as you want heated leather seats, manufacturers think your left leg doesn't work or you dont like actually driving anymore....) 

 

Nope, I work shifts, and on a Sunday morning off a nightshift, with absolutely zero cars on the road at that AM, the old Scottish roads are quite pleasurable! 

Even been known to throw some RC's in the boot, for a spot of gps speed runs on the empty roads. 

During Covid and the 'Covid speed limits' ,getting to work was something else, oh I miss those days...🏎💨💨🙄

 

As with breaking things on an RC, this is a perfect opportunity for upgrades!! 

Oh no, there's a big end rattle, sounds like I'm going to need a stroker crank..😏

Brakes need replaced , hello Brembo's! (had to take a mill off the calipers though, as when the discs got hot after a few corners, they'd start to rub with thermal expansion, might have been easier just throwing the discs in the lathe, but..🤷‍♂️) 

 

An advantage of more power and reliability 👌

Some purists argue the induction roar isn't the same , (maybe a point on a Pinto with twin 45's , but ....) 

 

Proper gearboxes downgraded with awful automatics, that just detach the driver and completely ruin the driving experience...

 

25k miles a year, 

Handful of trips a year towing a 4 berth trailer tent,

Shift work with empty roads on the commute,

Pretty much every journey is a road trip , and just zero inclination to spend any of my hard earned money on just a transport vessel..

 

 

 

I think you and me are a lot alike. You'd like the Alfa Mito. It's a petrol with a tiny little turbo that makes full boost at just 1700rpm so it's as torquey as a Diesel but as high-revving as a petrol. The engineers really tuned the exhaust well, it sounds awesome for a little 1.4 liter - and when I fitted a k&n cone filter in place of the intake box, you could hear the induction roar and the psssht of the blow off valve when the turbo was dumping boost, so it's like driving a real-life fast and furious car. Here's an old video I took the day I fitted it (watch till the end) - 

The gearbox was a twin clutch automated manual with paddle shifters, so basically could be left fully auto when feeling lazy, or shifted manually with the steering wheel paddles (no clutch pedal). No torque converter so revs and speed go up together like on a manual - none of that constant slipping feeling and engine revving and not going anywhere like on a traditional automatic.

And yet the EVs are just as fun (I have two Nissan Leafs, an old shape 100bhp one and a new shape 150bhp one). More powerful for sure (silent wheel spin is a sight to behold), way more responsive, no gear changes (it's always in the "power band" or like a turbo car that's constantly on boost), and the regenerative braking means I don't burn my brakes during spirited runs. I've gone on hour-long drives up and down our longest hills and been able to hold my finger on the front discs at the end of it! Sure they don't make noise, but they're very capable and fun in their own way.

[Wooders28]

3 hours ago, LMF5000 said:

Interesting - which brands make harder assembly kits? I might be interested in more of a challenge.

The British Mardave Meteor used to be an interesting build, like Meccano ,you had to use a bit of thinking power.

The instructions- 

Seemingly the Schumacher XLS is an interesting build too.

 

2 hours ago, alvinlwh said:

20 - 50% faster than a silver can will be somewhere between a 21.5t - 17.5t. I don't get out of bed for at least a 10.5t these days. 

Its what you get used to, I've compared running lipo then going back to Nimh the same as watching 4K TV and then going back to CRT (really need to dig out my old CRT out the folks garage), and it's similar with motors, getting used to a 4.5t and then running a silver can, just doesn't quite have the same appeal..

My 6yr daughter old started with a 13.5t and then moved to a 10.5t.

 

21 minutes ago, LMF5000 said:

If they threw in a basic brushless ESC (say 60A) and basic brushless motor

The TBLE-04s is a basic brushless esc, with a 75A rating, but I sold them on nip (when they did come with them..)  and bought 10bl120's (just bought a new G2 version for my Avante, so will report back how good the boost & turbo is).

Tamiyas 'basic' brushless motor is £70, and I don't see Tamiya making them cheaper tbh, 

[LMF5000]

2 hours ago, Siclick33 said:

I find that the basic motors that come with most Tamiyas are fine for normal bashing. If I wanted to race then I'd get a higher-end model, and even the higher-end Tamiyas (TC-01, TA08, TRFs etc) don't come with motors so you would have to pick your own anyway. I have a brushless TC-01 and TT-02R so I am not against them but, for me personally, the silver cans in the Monster Beetle, Lunch Box and the Torque Tuned in my TT-02s etc are fine for my purposes. They are cheap and cheerful but they work. Upgrading motors can have other unintended consequences such as gearbox damage etc. All of this can be mitigated against with upgrades, but for the lower-end models I don't bother. 

As for NiMH, I like them because they are bullet-proof and safe. I don't have to worry too much about charger settings (and not at all on my trickle charger). I don't have to worry about conducting storage charges, balancing, puffing up or catching fire. NiMh obviously aren't the highest performing batteries but they work fine for me, for the basic Tamiyas.

It seems I have the opposite view to you in that, if I wanted to race I would go for a high-end model, with brushless and LiPo. For car park and garden bashing I like the ease and simplicity of brushed and NiMh.

This isn't necessarily the point though, as Tamiya are presumably trying to cater for everyone, and not just RC experts and fanatics; these really are very simple/basic kits for everyone, including young kids. You mentioned earlier about simply swapping a wire to reverse the direction of a brushless motor, which is simple when you have that knowledge, but it isn't obvious to someone who's never seen a RC car kit before let alone a brushless motor - I'm not sure you are looking through the eyes of a complete newcomer when making statements like that. Aside from keeping the costs down (and being able to sell their relatively cheap kits cheaply) the use of basic brushed systems also encourage success, and less problems further down the line, by keeping the components simple and the performance on the safe side.

I also don't use the most expensive digital, brushless, servos on my Lunch Box and similar models either. The servos I use are of a high enough spec to do the job but they don't need to be the best, but that's a whole other discussion.  

Thanks, I think I can see your point of view now. I have a stock brushed monster beetle which feels too skittish and tail-happy to take more power and yet simultaneously too slow on the straights. It's a conundrum but it's staying brushed as it's the wife's car 😁.

Re lipos, I've found a very convenient way to use them which I will share here in case it enables you to enjoy your hobby more at some point. I charge at 1C to storage voltage (3.85V/cell). No need to balance. That takes 30 minutes for a fully depleted battery and puts about half a charge in. Then when there's an opportunity I stick it in the car and drive. Since lipos have such high energy density a storage charge gives almost the same runtime as a fully charged NiMH. In my case I chose the largest lipos that fit in the space of a traditional 6 cell racing pack, so I have a 2s 6000mAh hardcase lipo and a 3s 4000mAh pouch. At storage charge they store 3000mAh and 2000mAh respectively, so the 2s can be compared to an NiMH of just over 3000mAh.

Then I set the ESC to the highest voltage cutoff (Hobbywing just called it low, normal and high in the programming card, but I think "high" corresponds to 3.4 or 3.5V/cell). I've manually tested and the difference between ESC high cutoff and completely depleted batteries (3.0V/cell) was a mere 160mAh, so you're not missing any significant runtime but getting much more life out of your batteries by not discharging them as deeply.

With this very gentle protocol there's no balancing needed, no risk of puffing, no stress on the batteries, no need to charge beforehand (they have very little salt discharge, so just pack and go when the sun comes out). If this was NiMH you'd have to charge beforehand and you're waiting either an hour for a full fast charge or several hours for a trickle charge just to equal the runtime of a 30-minute charge on a lipo that fits in the same space.

[LMF5000]

20 minutes ago, Wooders28 said:

The British Mardave Meteor used to be an interesting build, like Meccano ,you had to use a bit of thinking power.

The instructions- 

Seemingly the Schumacher XLS is an interesting build too.

 

Its what you get used to, I've compared running lipo then going back to Nimh the same as watching 4K TV and then going back to CRT (really need to dig out my old CRT out the folks garage), and it's similar with motors, getting used to a 4.5t and then running a silver can, just doesn't quite have the same appeal..

My 6yr daughter old started with a 13.5t and then moved to a 10.5t.

 

The TBLE-04s is a basic brushless esc, with a 75A rating, but I sold them on nip (when they did come with them..)  and bought 10bl120's (just bought a new G2 version for my Avante, so will report back how good the boost & turbo is).

Tamiyas 'basic' brushless motor is £70, and I don't see Tamiya making them cheaper tbh, 

Yes, Tamiya's brushless motors are quite pricey. I've never held one in real life so I can't tell you if the cost is justified. I've always just used cheaper branded options like Hobbywing (and considered Carson and Razer10 for instance).

[alvinlwh]

13 minutes ago, Wooders28 said:

Its what you get used to, I've compared running lipo then going back to Nimh the same as watching 4K TV and then going back to CRT (really need to dig out my old CRT out the folks garage), and it's similar with motors, getting used to a 4.5t and then running a silver can, just doesn't quite have the same appeal..

Ah, I still find silver cans appealing though.

13 minutes ago, Wooders28 said:

The TBLE-04s is a basic brushless esc, with a 75A rating, but I sold them on nip (when they did come with them..)  and bought 10bl120's (just bought a new G2 version for my Avante, so will report back how good the boost & turbo is).

Tamiyas 'basic' brushless motor is £70, and I don't see Tamiya making them cheaper tbh, 

That is what I kept saying, putting a TBLE and TBLM system into their kits will boost the kit price by around £70. I doubt a £200 TT-02B or a £180 Holiday Buggy will be flying off them shelves like they do now.

[alvinlwh]

10 minutes ago, LMF5000 said:

so just pack and go when the sun comes out

A tip for you, get a ISDT PD60 or ToolKitRC M4 or SkyRC B6neo+ and a USB PD powerbank or in car charger if you are driving, charge the lipo up on your way to your driving grounds. These chargers (I have all 3) can be powered off USB PD therefore very convenient to charge on the go. The last one can even reverse charge, meaning any remaining charge in the lipo can be used to charge your phone, tablet or laptop instead of using a discharger which just turns energy into waste heat.

11 minutes ago, LMF5000 said:

Yes, Tamiya's brushless motors are quite pricey. I've never held one in real life so I can't tell you if the cost is justified. I've always just used cheaper branded options like Hobbywing (and considered Carson and Razer10 for instance).

No they are not. They are based on/copied off/relabeled Speed Passion I mentioned above so only really worth £20 or so. Looking at their performance Kv numbers prove that they are far from current technology. But Tamiya sells them for over 3 times that. Hobbywing? You posh £#%$" with money to burn! I mainly use "bluebottles" and RocketRC (Surpass) motors.  

[Wooders28]

3 hours ago, LMF5000 said:

You'd like the Alfa Mito. It's a petrol with a tiny little turbo that makes full boost at just 1700rpm so it's as torquey as a Diesel but as high-revving as a petrol. The engineers really tuned the exhaust well, it sounds awesome for a little 1.4 liter

Not the prettiest car in the world, but the engine would go well in something like a Clubman Mini...with the 6sp manual (3 pedals is half the fun in something like that!! )

3 hours ago, LMF5000 said:

could hear the induction roar

Can't really hear it on mine tbh...🙄

 

 

 

3 hours ago, LMF5000 said:

I've manually tested and the difference between ESC high cutoff and completely depleted

Depends on the motor current draw, C rating of the lipo and voltage sag. Something like a 4.5t will pull the voltage down to LVC and they're at storage charge voltage when not under load.

 

2 hours ago, alvinlwh said:

Hobbywing? You posh £#%$" with money to burn! I mainly use "bluebottles" and RocketRC (Surpass) motors.  

Be interesting to see how different motors perform on a proper dyno, under load (not just KV /Rpm ratings, that data puts a chain saw engine more powerful that a Pro Fuel Nitro engine...🤦‍♂️). 

In my real world testing a 3800kv named brand, was night and day more powerful than a 4300kv cheap name.

[alvinlwh]

19 hours ago, skom25 said:

I see that it started to be bit hot here...

While it did get hot, I am glad to see it did not descend into the mess that the toy box thread did. @LMF5000 still seem to engage mostly civilly enough even with a couple of heated moments. 

Now @LMF5000, to follow up on what I posted yesterday, if you want a challenge, look outside of Tamiya. 

Here is the setup sheet of my 3R MG Evo, the nearest equivalent will be a M-05*, IMHO. 

ALL the settings on that sheet is avaliable out of box with no additional purchase required. Compared that to the settings, or lack of, available to the M-05 OOB. I spent over a year trying out and learning about the effects of each settings on the car. It "only" has a 17.5t in it, and a silver can before that. I do not need that much speed to experiment, or on a FWD! 

So if you want a challenge, there are others to have out there. 

* I said this is equivalent to a M-05 purely based on price, ~£60# vs ~£100. Yah it has no body but has tons of stuff that the M-05 does not have, and may never have. Some people may say the actual Tamiya equivalent is actually the M-07, which costs £150!

# exclude postage from HK

[alvinlwh]

Guys, I just remembered one thing, Tamiya kits do not normally come with ESC as standard. It is the importers that usually toss in a ESC and slap a sticker on. Go buy Grasshopper in Japan and see what I mean. Even the instructions listed ESC as an non-included item to get. 

So all these while @LMF5000, we were arguing about the wrong thing. Tamiya only tossed a cheap silver can that cost next to nothing in. It was the dealers that throw in a TBLE, Carson or 1060 ESC, and bump up the price! 

There are some dealers here in the UK that will remove the ESC and sell the kit for ~£10 less, an option that I will take if possible. You are free to use the silver can (if included) as spares, paperweight, scrap, whatever and buy and install your own system. Now imagine if the dealers will toss in a brushless system as you suggested, the price will be +£50 up! I think most of us will prefer them not to do that but give ourselves the flexibility of picking what we actually want. 

[skom25]

4 minutes ago, alvinlwh said:

Guys, I just remembered one thing, Tamiya kits do not normally come with ESC as standard. It is the importers that usually toss in a ESC and slap a sticker on. Go buy Grasshopper in Japan and see what I mean. Even the instructions listed ESC as an non-included item to get. 

So all these while @LMF5000, we were arguing about the wrong thing. Tamiya only tossed a cheap silver can that cost next to nothing in. It was the dealers that throw in a TBLE, Carson or 1060 ESC, and bump up the price! 

There are some dealers here in the UK that will remove the ESC and sell the kit for ~£10 less, an option that I will take if possible. You are free to use the silver can (if included) as spares, paperweight, scrap, whatever and buy and install your own system. Now imagine if the dealers will toss in a brushless system as you suggested, the price will be +£50 up! I think most of us will prefer them not to do that but give ourselves the flexibility of picking what we actually want. 

You are right probably. I bought TT-02B from Amazon, it came from Germany and there was Carson Dragster ESC inside. Kits which I bought in LHS contained HW1060 or TBLE ESCs.